Reducing costs by using PMC

Jewelry Discussion
61

I understand the comments made by many regarding the value or
non-value in using PMC. Part of why I say this is because my dad was
a fine jeweler for over 60 years and I used to sit next to his bench
and watch. I too have done some fine jewelry and have also dabbled
with PMC. However, those who allude that you have to be a fine
jeweler to garner respect is elitist. (My dad was never an elitist.
He saw PMC and respected that medium too even though he never worked
with it.) Both mediums require talent in order to make good jewelry.
I have seen just as much ‘no so great fine jewelry’. When I found
the PMC artist that I respect the most (so far)

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81n9

I gave him the same respect that I gave to my dad. This guy does
amazing things IMHO. So to those naysayers out there, please give
respect to anyone who ventures to fill the world with beautiful
jewelry for others to enjoy. Who are you to say what is “correct,”
"right,“or"better than”? Every artist should be given respect if for
the only reason - they are trying their best.

Although I have done some traditional jewelry, there is also value
in using PMC as a medium, although it involves SOME different talents
(like using clay). I value both mediums, for different reasons. Be
kind in your comments - not so much criticism. Why is it that these
days people seem to criticize so easily rather than applaud other’s
efforts?

Mary Young
Follow your passion…

62

I have not tried PMC to any great extent. But I consider it part of
the landscape of metals, part of the toolbox of available materials
and techniques. Like forging, like casting, like CAD/CAM.

Like any material, it has its own attributes which can be used and
exploited. I have always been a bit surprised at how few people have
approached PMC as a clay, throwing little pots, etc. It seems,
instead, that it has much more often been used as a back door into
metalsmithing and jewelry making which, I think, is where
misunderstanding and indignation begins.

“PMC Decade” published by Tim McCreight has some great examples of
compelling work made in the material. I saw the exhibition that
accompanied the book’s publication years ago in Memphis. At the
National Ornamental Metals Museum. I was impressed.

Andy Cooperman, Metalsmith

63

I have seen beautiful work done in PMC/precious metal clay, but as
the original post was about costs I will address that, based on my
very limited experience. It is NOT cheaper!!! I became interested
in it, thinking it might be a way to create some of the ideas in my
head, that had bits I couldn’t figure out how to do with
fabrication/chasing/repousse’ - which are my skill sets (I don’t
know how to do wax or wax castings, which would undoubtedly allow me
to do what I want). I went to a local adult “art fun night” where a
metal clay artist brought her materials in, and showed us how to use
it to make a pair of earrings.

This convinced me of several things. First, it was a VERY expensive
medium - for the minuscule amount of silver in the clay we used the
cost was astronomical. I could have made the same pair of earrings
in less time for far less cost using fabrication methods. Second,
the instructor was “certified”, and the things she said about the
clay, about the silver in it, and about the supposed “value” of the
silver, among other things, were far from factual. I’m big on “just
the facts please”. so that really turned me off. For me the kicker
was the binding in the clay we were using was corn based. I’m
allergic to corn, and when the torches were fired up and folks were
"sintering=9D their pieces, enough corn molecules were being
released that I had an asthma attack. So clearly, this was NOT the
right medium for me.

However, as I said at the beginning, it is indeed possible to create
stunning pieces with this medium. Also possible to create incredibly
ugly pieces. True of any medium.

I think if the original poster actually sits down and calculates all
the costs, it is quite likely that doing what you want (especially
since you said you didn’t have a kiln, and the consensus seems to be
that most of the clays need a kiln to properly sinter) will be more
expensive in this medium rather than less. If you still want to use
this medium, there ARE inexpensive small kilns out there, under $200

  • I have one, and use it regularly for my enamels. It does have
    limitations, but it also does work! For anyone wishing to buy a kiln
    I highly recommend trying to find folks who have one you can use. I
    got mine from someone who got it for metal clay, and realized it
    would NOT do what she wanted to do with it. My gain, her loss. I’ve
    been fortunate enough to use a wide range of types and sizes of
    kilns, so if I ever have the money to buy are larger one I do have a
    fairly clear idea of what I want it to be able to do.

Beautiful art comes from the hands of a truly creative person, and
has nothing to do with the materials used. I’ve seen gorgeous work
done using drinking straws! Who would have thoughtee

Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio

64

Respectfully, Debbie, I don’t many of use who have been around a
while would agree with the snob label. Pride in workmanship perhaps,
a bit of frustration with a classical field of accomplishment being
tested on all sides by new technologies, but not really snobbery. I
think what folks sometimes fail to appreciate is the very uniqueness
of this group of fine people. It is very unusual to find a group
where the cream de la creme of a particular trade gather and
actually allow novices and hobbiests to play in their sandbox with
them. If the folks on this list were really snobs - you’d never been
allowed to join the discussion. Folks are opinionated certainly as
you will find with all professionals, but mostly civil and helpful
and kind… especially to amateurs.

This PMC discussion pops up about every six months. along with the
ArtJewelry vs Real world one and a few others that have no real
resolution because we’ll all never be on the same page with these
discussions :slight_smile: Eventually, we’ll just leave it alone with the usual
"whatever floats your boat" position. till it pops up again and
starts the discussion anew. If PMC makes you happy, go for it, I
bought a pack one time. its around here somewhere.

65

Thanks, Andy,

Your thoughts are closely aligned with mine, though, of course, you
have expressed them more gently than I have.

It’s nice that you recall that exhibition in Memphis during the SNAG
conference. It was a strong show with a good representation of we
who were using metal clay at the time. So much good work in metal
clays has been done since then, too, although there have not been
any exhibitions recently that would represent current work. So much
has been lost since the demise of the Guild. oh well. whining won’t
work.

So. Andy, come East and play in my studio with some metal clay.

Linda Kaye-Moses

66

Hi, Debbie,

I think your calculation of expenses is fairly typical when people
are just trying to “support their habit” as I like to call it. The
reason folks here are having a little trouble with it is that, in a
situation where you are actually trying to make money on an
undertaking, you need to take a clear-eyed look at expenses in a way
we artists tend to find difficult and unpleasant.

Maybe your cash outlay per piece of jewelry will be less if you work
in metal clay-- you will do everything yourself and not have to pay
the caster, the polisher, etc.

But if you truly calculate your expenses, you must pay yourself for
each of those things. You need to cover your labor costs, materials
costs, and add the same kind of markup you would add if you were
paying someone else. You need to take into account the money you paid
for your kiln, and the cost of elecrtricity, overhead on your space,
etc. Last, you have to add a margin of profit, not just pay for your
costs.

Of course when I say “have to”…you can charge any amount you
choose. But unless you include all these things and more, you are not
treating it as a business, and you are not coming out ahead.

It is daunting, without a doubt.

For what it is worth, I have just signed on to do a webinar in
December for Interweave Press (Lap Journal/Jewelry Artist) on this
exact topic. I’m not putting myself out as an authority on it-- I am
doing research and soliciting thoughts, opinions and experiences from
other people who live these problems every day. So, anyone with
useful ideas on pricing-- feel free to get in touch!

Noel

67

Debbie,

As your main interest in using the PMC is that it is less expensive
for you than using wax, as you would have to have to pay to have the
wax model cast for you.

Actually, you can do the casting of the wax yourself for a pittance.
No torch or expensive kiln is needed.

You could do steam casting as all it requires is an electric hot
plate, anda flowerpot. You can get all the instructions and
neededon the internet. It is a very popular method of
casting for those who don’t have a kiln or a centrifuge.

Although I have a complete casting set-up, programmable kiln,
centrifuge, and Vacuum, when I go to the coast I still use the old
steam casting method. One of my friends has a cottage at the coast,
and as we cannot lug our casting equipment to the coast when we go
there, we do steam casting, as all we need is an improvised kiln
made from a hot plate and a flower pot. Works just fine.

You don’t need a torch or any other equipment. Some people cut costs
even further by using small sections of plumbing pipe for their
flasks. You can get your local hardware store to cut thepipe for
you. When I go to the coast I don’t bring my regular carving tools,
but just use my old exacto knife. Works just fine.

As The cost of PMC is prohibitive, doing steam casting of your wax
modelswill save you a bundle. Then when you sell your steam cast
jewelry, you can save your money, buy a regular kiln, and go back to
using the PMC if that is what you really want to work with.

You will find all kinds of and videos on steam casting
on the internet. If you have a problem finding it, let me know and I
will send you the links to the sites.

Best wishes, Alma
"Debbie"

68

Debbie, In my other post I suggested you try steam casting. You will
need a torch, but a hand held plumbers torch using a disposable
propane tank will work just fine.

Also, to further cut costs and to really get proficient with steam
casting you may want to start of by using bronze casting grain
instead of silver. You can make gorgeous things with bronze. You can
get it from Rio Grande for about $15 for a pound. That is a lot of
material for youto experiment with. Get the casting grain, not the
chunks, as they melt faster.

Then, when you achieve success using the steam casting method, you
can switch to using silver. As I mentioned in my other posts, when
you begin selling your work, you can save up for a real kiln and go
back to using the PMC if you desire.

Don’t get discouraged. There is always a solution, and you will find
lots of support and help here on the Orchid website.

Alma

69 
My biggest problem with this list is reflected in part of this
post and part of this entire discussion --I have found the people
on this list to be snobs. I'm sorry, but you know, not everyone
can be a jewelry van gogh, so to speak.

disagree.

Betsy

70

Thank you Mary Young,

I have stepped away from reading the comments on this site because
of the ongoing elitist responses.

Thank you for your input and I hope the audience is listening.

Linda Minor
beadmeus.com

71

Debbie

Glad you found a site for metal clay - I hope you manage to find
what you need there.

Janet

72

One more comment about PMC. I generally do regular fabrication, but
have taken a few short workshops in PMC to see what it was all about.

Loved it for 3d type things, for instance, I had repouseed a dragon
over a period of days. Tried making a press mold with polymer clay,
fired that in a toaster oven. Used it as a press mold to make another
dragon. It came out smaller, of course, which was fine. I was able to
find a friend to fire the PMC till it sintered. This is VERY
important.

I did find that when I tried to solder the PMC piece onto a
background, the solder just seemed to be absorbed into the more
porous PMC, and I ended up riveting the dragon onto the background. I
was pleased with the final result which enabled me to sort of
amortize the time spent on the original dragon.

I also experimented with painting layers of PMC slip onto the back
of a leaf, using many layers to achieve a reasonable thickness. Again
used a friend’s kiln to fire it. Attached it to a sheet base (don’t
remember solder or rivets).

So I was satisfied with the 2 pieces, but would be careful about the
strength of the PMC unless it was very thick.

BUT you really should use a kiln, borrow, buy one on the internet,
go to a workshop, whatever you can. I haven’t tried the most recent
developments and have no experience with the bronze, etc., tho’ I
have seen nice pieces.

If you can’t afford or borrow a kiln, make some jewelry with wire or
whatever, and sell the results to finance further work and
equipment. But there is no point in using metal clay if you don’t
fire it enough to sinter it.

Noralie Katsu

73 
Every artist should be given respect if for the only reason - they
are trying their best.

Yes, every artist should be respected for giving it their best try.

That has nothing to do, however, with whether the work they produce
deserves respect.

Our society has somehow gotten those two concepts totally jumbled.

I give enameling my best and I’m sad to say that, so far, very
little of the enameling work I’ve done is worthy of any respect. A
few pieces are nicely done but none are professional quality.

I would like that to be different but wishing won’t make it so. Only
lots more practice.

I wish I could say it’s because I haven’t had good instruction but
that’s the opposite of the truth. I’ve had the best, I’m just a darn
slow learner at enameling.

So, for the record, when my enameling work finally reaches
professional quality, feel free to praise it as such. Don’t cheapen
the hard work I’m putting into this skill by praising inferior work
as if it were high quality.

Who are we to judge anyone’s art? We’re all human beings with an
intellect and life experience. I’ve learned enough about making
jewelry that I can recognize a lot of badly made pieces. The
technical quality of the work is sadly lacking. Poor finishing,
sawing, soldering, etc., are all fairly objective criteria for
judging someone’s work as not up to professional standards.

Quality of design is far more subjective. To borrow from the US
Supreme Court’s ruling on pornography some decades ago, “I know it
when I see it.” :slight_smile:

And I definitely know it when it’s not there at all.

In between it’s like soft porn, i. e., gratuitous shiny baubles
plopped on a piece much like bare breasts are put in a R rated movie
scene.

Now, being male, I’m partial to bare breasted women regardless of
whether the artistic merit of the scene requires it. Can’t say I feel
the same way about gratuitous shiny baubles that appear to have been
vomited forth onto a jewelry design… :slight_smile:

74

First, Debbie, I sympathize with your noticing that some folks let
their egos or perceptions of some standards which they imagine to be
important to come across as snobbery. You’ll find that in almost any
group of varied people. I, for example, belong to several Facebook
groups related to veganism. For a group of people supposedly pledged
to respect animals and living things, to not abuse or exploit animals
and live accordingly (Me, I like that aspect, but follow a vegan type
of diet for health reasons first, the rest is bonus…), you would
not believe how vicious and holier than thou the attitudes of some of
these people can be. Simply astounding. The whole thing of “I’m more
vegan than you” sort of thinking is just ludicrous, so if you think
this moderated group can be snobby, shucks gurl, you ain’t seen
nothin. It’s just something human beings tend to do, making
themselves be right and feeling superior, by making other folks be
wrong.

All in their (and our. we all do it at times) heads. Made up, but
seems real.

So give it all the gravity and due attention such attitudes richly
deserve. Which is none. Ignore the crap, and concentrate on the good
stuff. Even the snobbiest of folks here, when they forget to be
a-holes (and yeah, that no doubt includes me too now and then), are
knowledgeable and usually nice people.

end or preamble to the real thoughts…

I have quite a number of designs that I'd like to take from paper
to metal and working with wax, while doable, just isn't in my
budget right now.

I’m curious why this seems to be a budget problem for you. Wax
itself is not costly. You don’t even have to use the brand name fancy
stuff. Candle wax burns out just fine too. Harder to work with, but
can be done. Same with beeswax. Or get some bulk sculpture wax.
Fairly cheap. If you want carving wax, bulk boxes of the stuff is not
costly, and you can get a lot of pieces from one of those blocks of
file-a-wax. You can make wax carving tools yourself if you need. Or
anything that works in wood, plastic, metal, or PMC will also work
with wax.

Almost any steel tools, and even many things from softer stuff from
wood on up, can be used, just as can be used to form PMC. When you’re
done, send the wax models to a casting business to have them cast it
for you. Given the premium prices that PMC and similar materials
cost, having a wax cast will save you a fair amount of money over
making things in PMC. Biggest difference is introducing the whole
separate casting operation, even if someone else is doing it for you,
adds a little to complexity. But shouldn’t be too bad, and really
should be able to save you money.

The biggest reason I can see to work in PMC is that you can get
immediate results if you fire the stuff yourself pretty soon after
making the piece (though you still have to let it dry…) And even
more than that, the shrinkage of the stuff in firing gives you an
automatic way to increase the level of delicacy to details that
ordinary casting from wax won’t do. That shrinkage is unique to the
metal clays, and can be useful. but the rest of what it does? Wax
will do it too…

Peter Rowe

75

Keep in mind two things: 1) There are many people out there who
actually like ugly pieces and 2) Everyone starts out more slowly
than they become withpractice. For example, I crochet kippot
(yarmulkas – skull caps that Jewish men where) – I’ve been
crocheting off and on since high school (it was one of those things
that I could do in boring classes – when you go to a Yeshiva,
Jewish religious school, your teachers generally don’t complain if
you crochet kippot in class). Some of the older kippot I’ve done,
while nicer than the store bought kind, are not as nice as the ones
I do today (decades later).

When my work gets nicer, I can charge higher prices.

Debbie

76

Just thought I should mention to you – we didn’t do any soldering
in our metal clay class – we used clay or slip to attach and
refired.

Debbie

77

To be honest, I have a lot of already created jewelry – some is
silver, some is beads and some is “mah johgg” tiles with my graphic
designs on them. They would all appeal to different audiences (and I
think they’re all nice)but I still don’t have a very good venue for
selling. I’ve sold at boutiques (as in pre-Hanukka or pre-Passover
“rent a table at the synagogue and sell your products” sort of
thing) and at the township’s street sale for the arts. I’ve sold to
a few friends (like I did when I was at FIT back in the 70s – I
sold then to co-workers of mine and my mom’s mostly). But I’ve still
probably spent more than I’ve made. (We’re talking hundreds of
dollars at the most)

I do have stuff up on my facebook site

– if you look at this you’ll see that I have a bunch of different
kinds of jewelry. So, in reality, my two biggest issues are costs
(and keeping my costs down so I can keep the prices lower) and
marketing – finding my market.

All advice gratefully accepted. (I just hope you all don’t think my
stuff s***s)

Debbie

78

don’t like PMC. who cares! So you don’t want to make a quality PMC
product… who cares. Let the free market decide what sells and
survives and what doesn’t. It will weed things out over time. Yes
there is lots of bad jewelry out there. - of all kinds. Let the
market sort it out. It’s the one thing EVERYONE is forced to listen
to.

Just sign me, "tired of people who won’t listen to reason"
Kennedi

79 
So. Andy, come East and play in my studio with some metal clay.
Linda Kaye-Moses

Where are you located? I realize the “east” covers a lot of ground,
but I live in the east too.

Debbie

80

Well Hello Debbie

My biggest problem with this list is reflected in part of this
post and part of this entire discussion -- I have found the people
on this list to be snobs.

Maybe you should learn to use this resource. And listen to what
master craftspeople have to say.

Then you may make some things that will sell.

Not many hands will be raised for your post. You simply do not get
Orchid.

All the best
Richard