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Real stones not fake


#1

Was: Your favorite stone…

The discussion of whether Tiffany Stone and Satin Flash opal are
real began in another thread.

I finally had a day where the sun was out, the neighbors were not
mowing their lawn followed by building something with a electric saw
going, followed by a power nail gun.

One clip will be about Tiffany Stone, the second one about Satin
Flash opal, and the last one about some fun and different stones I
have. I also tossed in unpolished mostly not finished silver pieces I
do. Then I present a few of the copper work pieces I make. They are
not wire wrapped but 23 steps of Old Renaissance style metal work with
them being fully soldered together. I make thousands of those
ornaments

Tiffany Stone

Satin flash

Coprolite

Please Orchid people can you fix these video clip links to the
proper format for me I’m a bit of a luddite who can weild a blow torch
but computers I have problems with.

Aggie the old bitchy lady in Fl.


#2

Most interesting came my way today. Something I wish I
had made the call to the owners of the Satin Flash mining rights
before today. It would have put to rest all the discussion of if Satin
Flash was a real stone. Especially in regards to the GIA being sited
as the only real arbituer of if a stone is real, certifiable, good,
or crap.

Seems in the spring of 1997 in a little publication called Gems and
Gemmology (first I have personally heard of them, but I was busy not
reading magazines back then). Our vaulted authority of GIA did a
little article after examination and testing of all things, Hyalite
from the Milford Utah mine. “HOLY COW BATMAN” I don’t have to send
them a sample and pay for the testing and such. I have not read said
article, but Rick assured me it was very favorable.

Along with this (put a big cheesey smiles on my face) I
had emailed to me by the miners, pictures of close ups of the Satin
Flash opals they have cut in the past.

Please Orchid wizards help out the old lady and fix the link
properly, Thank You

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zry

Now I want to say that there are many beautiful stones in this
world. Many have not been reviewed tested or certified by GIA. It
doesn’t make them fake. I wish my market niche allowed me to make more
jewelry in gold. I also wish I still lived on the other side of the
continental divide. I love diamonds as well. But my customers mostly
can’t afford them. The economy has a lot of people still wanting high
end jewelry, but the cost has halted those wishes. I’m sure I’m not
the only one who has been affected. This should not mean that I or
any other person should be belittled for what they like or do. We are
here to learn and share.


#3

I really enjoyed Agnes’ videos and plan to look for Tiffany stone
when they reopen the mine. I’m drawn to multi-colored stones and
those purples and oranges are spectacular.

Regarding my favorite stones? Those are any that fit in with
whatever design I’m currently working on and many times it’s the
very humble gray basalt beach stone that I’ve picked up from the
beach down the street. Or a piece of beach granite that I slice,
polish and incorporate in a piece so that it just catches the eye. I
love to go beach combing and find ‘gems’. It gives my jewelry a
story. As long as I have fun with the process and like the final
design I don’t get hung up on the preciousness of the stones - or
metals - used. I guess my favorite stone is ‘stone du jour’.


#4

First, no one is saying, at least I am not saying GIA is the only
real arbiter of certifiable stones- there are many other worldwide
orgs, that certify stones. That isn’t the only way a mineral, gem
etc. becomes accepted as" real", in fact i think GIA is a racket, as
they would like the world to think that one cannot correctly
identify, cut, facet, or discuss etc. without paying them
for a certificate- I completely disagree that that is the only way to
learn to use specific equipment to correctly identify “x” material,
but to get a job with many retail chains ( in general most
non-independent chain retailers are owned by one of two larger huge
corporations, that heavily support GIA so its all contributing to a
sort of monopoly which I believe wrong). There are also many
worldwide institutions , professional and scientific organizations,
schools, etc. responsible for collecting and/or classifying minerals,
gem material and crystals for mineralogical, gemological and
crystallographic purposes solely for identification and nomenclature
recognised worldwide by the scholarly community, as well as hobbyist
clubs, organisations, federations etc. and jewelry makers.

I Regarding “Satin Flash Opal” - it is not an officially recognized
mineral, gem or crystal by any of them, It is definitely a gimmick
for marketing a kind of bubble containing hyalite. “Tiffany Stone"
is a marketing term that does not account for the real material you
have and are cutting, gemologically speaking…It is included in a
conglomerated mineral purported by some ( in the USA) only to be
found in Utah, but is supposedly found in beryllium containing
mineral material in a few other locales worldwide, but not in great
quantity and the 'official name” differs from the name it may have
been sold to you as … I don’t see the point in trying to explain
that any further- you think its not a marketing gimmick to sell the
so called “opalised purple fluorite” found in bertrandite ( as is
written/ cited in many sources), I believe the scientific name is
more appropriate in identifying the material you are cutting, but if
you want to call it tiffany stone what the heck- go ahead!!..

As for “satin flash opal” that’s entirely different :there is “red
flash opal”, but nowhere is satin flash opal identified as anything
but another name for another recognized mineral- hence it is most
definitely a marketing term, like when “rainbow calsilica” appeared
a few years back and was discovered to be layers of glazes from
defunct pottery manufacturing concerns speaking from a purely
scientific classification standpoint-. I just don’t want anyone to
think there is an actual natural gem called “satin flash opal” as,
first it’s not an opal at all so incorrect identification of anything
seems to me to be misleading to those that don’t know the difference
(kind of like “mystic topaz” it simply doesn’t exist- it is a man
made coasting applied to a number of stones, including topazes, that
gives a specific appearance from a vapour deposited coating man
applies to the base stone… though satin flash opal has no coating,
it is not an opal- that is my point…

“Tiffany stone” is included in other mineral material but doesn’t
exist on its own in nature, it is separated from a conglomerated
mineral material…So we disagree… big deal! I will not change my
opinion, and presume you won’t change your opinion. That does not
mean its a personally directed disagreement either, just a
geologically related point of reference… rer


#5

Congratulations Agnes! I was rooting for you! Sort of vindicates and
gives credibility to all us old rock hounds by proxy. No, it doesn’t
mean every old story we’ve heard is true, but SOME experiential
knowledge trumps what can be learned from books. Einstein’s intuitive
leap took many years to prove with the math. Thomas III


#6

Aggie,

I want, I want. I don’t care what they are called. They’re
beautiful! Do you sell them? Where? Absolutely beautiful. Doubt I can
afford them but I can dream and drool. :slight_smile:

Michele


#7

Rourke,

[] Conglomerate is a formation of stones that have been been welded
together with heat and pressure mostly following major deposition by
glacial activity. They are generally of the rounded variety of stone
like from stream beds or moraines. Where Breccias is the rough
angular type of mixture. You must have thought that because there was
seepage of quartz into the area in some pockets along the Bertrandite
that it was erroneously a conglomerate. I have and showed a few of
those rare stones that were cut with druzy from the quartz pockets.
Not enough pressure and heat was applied to this area to turn them
into metamorphic rocks. If you did not watch the video clips the
stones are most definitely not conglomerate. The surface looks like
pudding with the various chemical soup that was seeped into the area
and congealed into a stone that when held resembles more a
sedimentary. Which it is not. Yet So. Utah is mostly sedimentary of
the Navajo and Mount Carmel formations. I say to you it is about time
to learn about Utah. In particular learn So. Utah geology. The Wah
Wah mountains between Beaver Utah and Milford Utah are known to be a
major area that is filled with various silcates. If silicate is not
the major component of Opal, Then there is no opal even in Australia,
which there is. You don’t even have to become Mormon.

Now another thing you would find if you were in the South West USA is
a deposit of stone that makes most home owners cuss vehemently. It is
called caliche. It was deposited as ancient Lake Bonneville receded.
Anyone who has had to deal with digging only a few inches down in
their yard in the SW hits this nice deposit. Some areas are softer
than others, but that doesn’t mean much when it takes a jack hammer
or more to break through it. This is like Tiffany Stone. A lot of
what is being sold today and in particular on EBay is the soft crap
and I would not have it. (Not all diamonds are of gem quality) The
good stuff is hard to come by. It is as hard as caliche when you get
the right stuff. If the proverbial rock hound that had collected for
50 years in the area really knew the Milford Utah area, he would
know that. Does that person live there or only travel periodically to
the rock shows in Tucson and Quartzite? As far as the mythical
Tiffany goes, she is still alive today and in an old peoples home in
St. George Utah. Her father died back in 1992. Again if that rock
hound had been in and around Milford he would know this.

Morganite is a fake stone!!! How could it be anything but a
gimmick by oops a little known obscure gemmologist named Kunz, named
it. He named it after his good friend JP Morgan. Can’t be say it
isn’t so. That has to be a myth since the world according to ROURKE!
has never heard of this kind of nomenclature before. (I wish you could
see my Chesire cat grin at the moment)

Just like Bixby was the one who originally stumbled on Bixbite. I
notice you are not commenting on the existence of Bixbite or that it
was named after the man who found it. Since that is known world wide
and CERTIFIED by GIA and all other World Wide testing labs, it has
gone un-disputed by you or Leonid. It is also known as red emerald. Is
that any worse than the various colors of garnet and the names they
give that colorful Quartz? After all all those nice stones in the
garnet family are nothing more than Quartz.

Bixbite of gem quality only comes from that one mine in the Wah Wah
mountains. Why else is it known as the rarest gemstone in the world?
OOPS could it be that something within 20 miles of Bixbite is also
rare due to a small deposit?

I also wonder if you are not really a cook at IHOP? You sure flipped
on GIA when you were found to be in error about them CERTIFYING these
stones. Yeah I call it a flip worthy of any pancake turner. Maybe you
could find a good career as a politician. I’m not disputing you or
Leonid are jewelers, I have not seen your work so it must not exist by
your logic again. As for gimmick and correct names, then lets call
them as they should be. It is not Diamond it is carbon. There is no
marketing gimmicks used by De Beers ever. In fact no stone has had any
person ever try to sell them. Diamonds/carbon has never been given
romantic meaning or used by some new age guru for some spiritual
meaning. No gem has ever had one single thing ever said about it to
market or give it new age meaning, or sell it. ANY one who deals in
diamonds must be a shyster.

That would be a gimmick and marketing. If you personally got stung
by purchasing Cal Silica don’t take it out on others when you deem
sight unseen something as fake. Also Corundum is the proper name for
sapphires and rubies. Never use those marketing names. Emerald is
Beryl along with many others in that family. Pearls are Nacre which
is a form of calcium carbonate. No one has ever given a stone a
different name from the scientific name. Australia never marketed
their diamonds as Champagne diamonds. There is only one variety of
Australian opal, no boulder, no Korite, no black, no lightening
ridge. It is only a mere silicate. Marketing of opals as anything
other than silicates is wrong. It has never been referred to as
anything else but silicates by those in the know. That all to use
your logic. Until you flip on your opinions again.

To your concentrated effort to only discredit me and two of the
stones I liked in a fun little thread, I call your comments a huge
massive steaming pile of male bovine solid exhaust. Go back to
school and learn geology before you spout off you know an area. Then
travel to that area yourself and see it up close and personal. Hell
if you go in the summer I will take you personally to the sites and
to the mayors of the So. Utah towns so you can quiz them in person. i
can even take you to meet Tiffany in person. I might even take you to
see a location of note. On Cedar Mountain there is a deposit of
Kimberlite. Too bad it is on Forest Service/Federal land. I know it
well having lost a good pair of hiking boots in the slime of the
volcanic tube exposed during a construction project through the
forest. But Kimberlite must also be fake. There are no deposits in
North America. Murfressboro Arkansas, Northern Canada.

I also never said to buy them. I did not market them. But through me
standing up to what comes across as a Internet bully or as my son
calls this behavior a “TROLL” You and I have made them better known.
I also suggest you look me up via the Utah Shakespeare Festival. Call
or email Fred. You don’t even need his last name. He can tell you
that I have lived for many years in the area. These days I’m known as
the copper lady. But I’m still very well known in So. Utah of which I
talk about.

I have a hard time Rourke understanding how you came up with a cal
silica connection when there is none. I also scratch my wide posterior
wondering how a new age twist came in. When did you a jeweler become
so against marketing? Does your work sell without showing it or
saying what it is? You must be hidden in a small space in a basement
to avoid people knowing your work exists for fear of that evil
gimmicky marketing and selling that comes from it. I also wonder why
you feel the need to attack me? What do you gain? Are your eyes
brown? How old are you?

Lastly Why no comments about coprolite? Is that not fake? It hasn’t
been tested. I doubt there is a gemological institute that would
examine it and give a report. I showed that as well. Yet I know many
institutions that have given scholarly reports on it. Could it be
that geological labs and Universities are almost as good or better
than gemological Institutes? Or do they know something you don’t?


#8

While I can’t comment on the opal. I can say opal doesn’t have to be
precious opal to exist. Common opal has that name for a reason. if it
is in some combination with other minerals it could have some sort of
luster due to its combination, or not. Tifffany stone is no doubt a
combination of minerals,it is I believe 100% natural.There are many
blatent uses of fakery out there today take for example glass rubies
which are everywhere.What about smokey quartz which is commonly
marketed as topaz? Tiffany stone has been around for a long time it
is beautiful and is quite unique in appearance. The people who sell
Tiffany stone are set up every year at Desert Garden at Quartzite and
in one of the back tents at Tucson Electric Park during the Tucson
Gem Show. Anyone going to either of those shows who is curious about
the material should take a look for themselves. I really like the
material but find it a bit on the pricy side but compared to say
diamonds its a steal and no doubt much rarer.

Dave Owen


#9
When did you a jeweler become so against marketing? Does your work
sell without showing it or saying what it is? 

The answer to the later is yes, and the answer to the former is
always. Let’s make a very clear distinction between goldsmiths and
gold merchants. There must be trust between a goldsmith and a client.
Jewellery represents many things to a client. There is an emotional
connections. Clients usually invested in article of jewellery on many
different level. Monetary one is probably the least important. In
essence goldsmith partners with client to create something, which
becomes client’s legacy.

Gold merchant is quite a different animal. He/she views someone
entering their place of business as a walking wallet. Whatever is
attached to the wallet is not significant. The sooner wallet gets
emptied and leaves, the better. It is in this relationship marketing
plays major role. The huge problem in todays world is that gemstone
business is dominated by merchants. There are very little
appreciation for what gemstone represents. Very little understanding
of how rare some gemstones are, and to own a rare gemstone is one of
the greatest privileges to be granted. That is why attempts to
obscure the nobility of true gemstones by clever marketing gimmicks
promoting worthless rocks, is viewed by some ( I am among them ) as
personal affront.

Leonid Surpin
www.studioarete.com


#10

We sell both tiffany stone cabs, beads, and also some rough as well
It is purple opal with many designs/pictures in it and comes from
Utah. It comes from a beryllium mine originally in Utah (the best
materials) and was found in nodules within the beryllium mine. It
has not been mined nor available for many years and thus it is semi
precious opal due to its scarcity. Many Australian dealers have been
buying it and selling it as well as others but its supply is only in
old stocks. Mr Tom Munson my associate and a very well known gemstone
cutter cuts it in Salt Lake City Utah (Dessert Mountian Gems) He is
also a mine inspector for the state of Utah. has stated it is a Utah
100% natural colored by flourite opal or purple opal. At this time we
know of no stimulantsor synthetics in this opal versus peruvian blue
opal or pink opal which are very scarce right now in Peru due to the
mining of copper ore solely and the takeover of mines for metals by
Chinese and other firms in Peru. If you are interested please contcat
me further in how to tell real opals from stimulants, synthetics,
dyed, glass, etc I do lectures/presentations for GIA alumni societys
and other groups on this and other subjects ie "Gemstones of Peru"
and “Gemstones of East Africa” You may reach me at at
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zsi

Thank you
Lee Horowitz