Mr Binnion - how do you stamp your beautiful mokume-gane jewelry?
All others - has anyone ever been hassled by any person of authority
because they stamped the piece with all the metals included? Are we
worrying about a problem that doesn’t exist? I am particularly
interested in one of a kind type of jewelry stamping. what about
engraving the content? There is a difference in the law between
engraving and stamping, I think.
Judy Hoch
Hi all . . . and happy new year!
This is a subject that has been an ongoing question for me as well.
Been lurking - but had to dive in here. When I started in the public
in fall of ‘94 with my own body of work - I inquired of the acting
president of the local Hawaii Jewelers Association where I live, as to
the current laws. I was told that if one stamps the work with the
precious metal stamps - then, one is required by law to also stamp
one’s registered hallmark. He went on to say that the only time there
would be a problem is - if someone complains and a check is done to
verify the accuracy of the alloys and karat of gold etc. - or also,
to verify that the hallmark is registered. As I recall, he also
stated that if we were to solely describe the materials used in an
accompanying piece of written material or by verbal explanation -
then, it is the customers’ trust of our word and that the laws of
stamping are not utilized (if the pieces sold with the accompanying
explanation are not actually stamped with the metal stamps). Now, I
am not a lawyer - and am not 100% certain that I have this info
correct. Can anyone verify that this is accurate info - that the
accompanying literature or explanation is exempt from the stamping
laws?
It is important to me that my customers are aware of the actual
materials utilized in the pieces they buy, but now that I am working
with more multi-metals and keumboo etc, I have actually trimmed down
to just stamping the work with my logo stamp. This bothers me -
because down the line in time - when someone in a family picks up a
piece of the jewelry - they will no doubt wonder - “what is this made
with”? However, I think that we are fortunate in a way, in America,
that we do not have the “requirement” to stamp the metals . . .
(sometimes space on the piece is very difficult) and that it is a
choice. It seems that the laws in Europe are much more stringent -
and by being so, the purchasers in Europe have a much better knowledge
of the quality and composition of the pieces they are buying.
I’m not interested in deceiving a buyer - I would love to mark my
pieces with the clearest possible description of the materials used -
but with the bimetals, mokume gane and keumboo etc. there isn’t room
enough on the piece to mark it - unless going to micromarking.
In response to Judy’s question: yes, I have known of cases where the
laws have been enforced. It is my understanding that the main reason
these laws were created was to protect the consumer - so that they
were really buying what was marked - especially, with imported
products. In the news, there have been purges in Honolulu - one time,
I remember when gold that was of a lesser karat than what was stamped
was pulled from J.C. Penney’s shelves and laws were enforced.
Once, I spoke with the owner of a higher end jewelry production co.
locally - and he actually runs his own testing of raw materials on a
regular basis - to make sure that the supplier’s goods and raw
materials are what is stated. This is very costly, but is a double
protection - because he says he is liable if the metal is
under-karated and not the supplier of the raw materials. I wonder if
this may be true with the accuracy of stones as well - that we are
liable - not the supplier?
We live in such a litigous world, and this is all very complicated
and very expensive for a very small independent. I’m sure I have made
mistakes in stamping on occasion - but currently, when using
multimetals - I’ve strictly been putting my logo stamp only. I hope
it is like taxes, where we are acting in good faith and to the best of
our knowledge. My output is very small.
So . . . I agree, do we have a lawyer in our network here? I’m sure
this issue has been discussed in articles. I hope it is okay to stamp
with my logo stamp only - if I am not stamping with the metal content?
Customers have requested that I mark the pieces. I plan to accompany
pieces with a short written description of raw materials utilized -
so, I hope that is legally allowed.
Now, back to simpler tasks like . . . forging metal!! 
Cynthia
After reading the “Guides for the Jewelry, Precious Metals, and
Pewter Industries” (at Advertising and Marketing on the Internet: Rules of the Road | Federal Trade Commission) I too am
still confused. The excerpt below addresses what we are all confused
about. It appears that the key point is disclosure to the customer (I
assume the end buyer) and not misrepresenting what we are selling. If
anyone has the time, here is the address for the FTC in order to get
some clarification on this issue (show season is upon me and taking up
my time or I would do it myself):
1-877-FTC-HELP (382-4357); or by regular mail, at: Federal Trade
Commission CRC-240 600 Pennsylvania Ave, NW Washington, D.C. 20580
� 23.9 Additional guidance for the use of quality marks.
As used in these guides, the term quality mark means any letter,
figure,
numeral, symbol, sign, word, or term, or any combination thereof,
that has been stamped, embossed, inscribed, or otherwise placed on any
industry product and which indicates or suggests that any such product
is composed throughout of any precious metal or any precious metal
alloy or has a surface or surfaces on which there has been plated or
deposited any precious metal or precious metal alloy. Included are the
words “gold,” “karat,” “carat,” “silver,” “sterling,” “vermeil,”
“platinum,” “iridium,” “palladium,” “ruthenium,” “rhodium,” or
“osmium,” or any abbreviations thereof, whether used alone or in
conjunction with the words “filled,” “plated,” “overlay,” or
“electroplated,” or any
abbreviations thereof. Quality markings include those in which the
words or terms “gold,” “karat,” “silver,” “vermeil,” “platinum” (or
platinum group metals), or their abbreviations are included, either
separately or as suffixes, prefixes, or syllables.
(a) Deception as to applicability of marks.
(1) If a quality mark on an industry product is applicable to only part
of the product, the part of the product to which it is applicable (or
inapplicable) should be disclosed when, absent such disclosure, the
location of the mark misrepresents the product or part’s true
composition.
(2) If a quality mark is applicable to only part of an industry
product, but not another part which is of similar surface appearance,
each quality mark should be closely accompanied by an identification
of the part or parts to which the mark is applicable.
Why does legal-eaze always have to be soooooo darn confusing?? Oh
yeah, lawyers want to continue to make a good living…
With all the shysters that are constantly trying to make a fast buck
and drag the reputation of all jewelers in the mud by miscarating or
marking a piece as something its not I find it surprising that this
needs discussion. The last time i heard if you solder a piece of non
precious metal to a piece of sterling or carat you cannot call it
sterling or carat. this rule has stood for hundreds of years just
because there are many people out there that would take advantage of
any leeway or wiggle room. if you’re making multimetal pieces the
creativity and design are supposed to carry the value and the
contents or material involved in it’s construction should no longer
have any bearing on the salability of the piece.
Talk to you later Dave
Dear Lori:
The FTC regulations are an attempt to write down the customs and
practices in any given industry as they relate to manufacturing.
These rules are suppose to be rules that are widely understood in the
industry, manufacturing of jewelry. The FTC regulations are written
by attorneys for attorneys to familiarize themselves with a field that
they have little knowledge of. These regulations presume that you
have a legal education and are using the regulations to advise
clients. Few, non-attorneys and even most attorneys who do not
practice before a federal agency, would have a problem understanding
federal government regulations. If you do not believe me pick up a
copy of any federal regulations and see this issue. A brief reading of
the IRS regulations will cure insomnia for just about everybody. With
the spread of computers anybody can obtain access to the federal
regulations. For an artist, the FTC is generally interested in major
violations of the law, not just technical violations . These
regulations are designed to disclose to the consumer what is being
purchased so that the customer can understand what is being purchased
and make intelligent choices among competing items. Many regulations
are designed to give guidance, but are too often are viewed in a
overly technical manner. If you are designing a multi-metal piece of
jewelry, you are going to want to disclose enough about the piece so
that the customer will know what they are purchasing and a novice
repair person can make proper choices in repair.
Michael R. Ruffenach, Attorney at Law.
If you are designing a multi-metal piece of jewelry, you are going to want to disclose enough about the piece so that the customer will know what they are purchasing and a novice repair person can make proper choices in repair.
Dear Michael,
What is enough? In a previous posting I said that I typically make
pieces of 14k, 18k, and 22k, and stamp these pieces with all three
designations along with my hallmark on the backs of the pieces. (In
this case, the backing metal would be 14k while the bezels are 22k and
any wires or other decorations are 18k.) I think that this tells the
customer what s/he is purchasing, but someone responded that it was
illegal. Is it?
Beth
If you are concerned about whether your actions are “legal / not in
violation”, ask yourself why you are doing what it is you are doing,
meaning, are you doing it to take advantage of someone, or are you
doing it because it is what you feel should be done in that set of
circumstance. And, that your actions are a conscien- tious effort to
do “the right thing.”
Now a person can’t psyche themselves into “believing” a piece of
copper should be stamped 14k because it is the right thing to do, and
this can be covered in another axiom of “what would any other
reasonable and prudent person do in a similar circumstance?”
So, I think Mr. Ruffenack is saying, ‘if you make an honest effort to
do the right thing and to be informative, and not to take advantage of
someone’, then you probably do not have a reason to be getting
heartburn.
In short, common sense with a touch of honesty and a dash of
professionalism.
Someone correct if I have viewed this wrongly.
Jimmy Willingham
Living in Canada I haven’t got involved before in this discussion as
it seems to revolve around the USA. But my understanding of how it
works in Canada and how I have been doing it in the last 20 years is
that when marking pieces of mixed metals ,particularly pieces with
silver and gold or various karats of gold or platinum and gold is to
have the quality mark of the metal that constitutes the majority( by
weight ) of the piece right after the makers trademark and then the
rest follow in decending order, again by weight ,of the content of the
piece. I have been doing this after reading the Canadian precious
metals marking act and from my understanding believe it to be the
correct way in Canada.
It would seem that one should contact the agency in the USA who deals
with the marking of precious metal objects to get a description of how
pieces of mixed precious metals should be marked or obtain a copy of
the marking act and read it for instruction on what is the correct
procedure in the USA.
Doug Frey
Dear Beth: I view the word illegal as being a little strong. A better
wording would be confusing. Most of these disputes are going to be
handled in small claims court or you will recieve a letter from an
attorney demanding a refund of the purchase price. Most likely, the
dispute will come from the credit card company as a charge back. The
argument will be, I only noticed the stamp for 22k when it should have
been marked only 14k, because that was what most of the metal
contained. The real reason for the dispute is they found something
else at a discounter for only half the price. Most of my clients tell
me that the judge does not really understand. This is true. People
who are deciding these disputes rarely have any knowledge of jewelry
making and the standards of the industry. They are looking at the
dispute after people have really become ugly and will decide it, too
often from the customer’s side, because that is all they are going to
understand. They have only the knowledge that your customer has.
Unless their is some really good strategy for making your work in all
these different ks of gold, I would use only one k of gold through out
the piece or I would mark the item as14k and be done with it. I would
not suggest that what you are doing is criminal, but a poor practice.
You are only going to hear complaints when someone felt they paid too
much for the item or the item was damaged by a repair person who was
working the first day in the shop. If you came into my shop with the
items as you have marked them, I would not sell them. I would not
want to handle the customer complaints. Michael R. Ruffenach,
Attorney at Law
Hi again -
To clarify my previous question . . . it was solely - is there any
infringment of the law when one provides written material to
accompany the multimetal jewelry in the situation of a
retail/wholesale sale, without actually having stamped the metal
itself?
To me it is important (especially in the case of allergies or
reactions to certain metals/ and also repair situations/ and also in
some cases for the value of the metal) and also informative (of
interest) to the customer - to provide accurate on the raw
materials used in the jewelry. Most art pieces will state the
materials (sometimes art pieces will strictly state “mixed media”
-which is very vague) - so, accompanying the jewelry with the raw
materials used in written form - to me, is the same idea - purely
informative.
I don’t personally lose any sleep over this issue - just that every
time the subject comes up on Orchid, it seems to remain a very "gray"
area - meaning, not clearly delineated as to the proper way to mark
pieces. Having the info stamped on the actual pieces would definitely
benefit a repair person down the line. To, me, I’m opting more for
just providing the work and inform the gallery of the materials used
with accompanying written material - so, they can inform/educate the
customer. It was much simpler when I had previously set the
limitations of using only 14k gold and sterling silver - but recently,
I am having way too much fun with all these other techniques and
metals - including reticulated silver. I don’t stamp the reticulated
pieces, since I don’t currently have a stamp for that percentage of
alloy. Also, fine silver responds differently to wear - being softer
than sterling - so, it would benefit the wearer to know that the piece
contains fine silver as well as sterling silver.
Thanks Michael for joining in the discussion and I also found CTE7’s
message of Jan 3rd very interesting - where he states in the 1880’s
they stamped “Sterling and other metals” etc. So maybe, when I make a
pair of earrings that has a textured sheet of 14k gold soldered to a
backpiece of sterling silver - the stamping could be . . . “ster &
14k”. Or perhaps, with placing the sterling stamp first, it would be
similar to the regulations for listing food ingredients - where the
ingredients are listed in the greatest quantities first and then down
the line. What I did in the above instance was to stamp “ster” and
then “14k” - but, after reading the discussion here - I guess I should
have just stamped it “ster” since it is the lesser value of the
metals? Someone looking at the earrings may think then that the gold
piece is plated sterling, when it is really 14k. Oh well.
Any further feedback is welcome. I, personally, will continue to do
my best to accurately represent the materials used in my pieces - in a
way that I feel is straightforward and honorable. Perhaps our
contemporary interest in the fused metals and the use of multiple
metals in a single piece will perhaps bring a revamping of the vague
stamping regulations. Cynthia
“…he says he is liable if the metal is under-karated and not the
supplier of the raw materials. I wonder if this may be true with the
accuracy of stones as well - that we are liable - not the supplier?”
Cynthia,
I learned from my GIA courses that the retail jeweler, or seller, is
the one responsible for any misrepresentations or errors in the
stones they sell, not your supplier. This includes not only the type
of stone it is, but also it’s weight, quality grading, origin and
treatments. Therefore, never state or claim anything about a stone
you are not absolutely sure about. Even using the word “stone” for a
simulant can get you into trouble. Assume nothing.
Charles Heick
Michael,
Actually there are quite a few reasons, both from a technical and a
design standpoint to mix various metals in one piece. For instance
we do a huge amount of 18k gold work but have found that 14k gold
prong settings are much more secure and durable. We also believe that
for many stones a 22k gold bezel sets the stone off better and often
combine these with both 14k and 18k settings. Also, if you want to do
any mixed color work (plat/gold, silver/gold, yellow gold/white gold)
you are going to need to have multiple metals in the same piece. You
will note that I am not challenging what you are saying from a legal
standpoint as most jury trials are bad for the jewelers, however, to
limit a person’s creative output based on the possibility of a lawsuit
is a little extreme. You just need to make sure that the ultimate
consumer (hence all the wholesalers need to make sure their retail
outlets are representing their products properly) is properly informed
at the time and that the letter of the stamping law is followed as
closely as possible.
In retrospect this should be regarded as a challenge to make every
customer who comes in the store a friend as well as a customer.
Friends don’t tend to sue friends as much as “businesses”.
Daniel R. Spirer, GG
Spirer Somes Jewelers
1794 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@spirersomes
Dear Beth: I view the word illegal as being a little strong.
Michael,
Tell that to the retail store here in San Francisco who had the US
attorney come in and seize all their goods and arrest the owners. The
crime was under karating. Now they were definitely ripping off the
tourist trade down at Fishermans Warf but it is still a crime to
misrepresent the quality of the metals in the piece of jewelry. I
agree that it would be unlikely to face criminal charges on this but
I have seen at least one case here locally. Since you are a lawyer
would you please look at the FTC web page with The Guides for the
Jewelry, Precious Metals, and Pewter Industries
Advertising and Marketing on the Internet: Rules of the Road | Federal Trade Commission and give us an opinion on
the way the guides read about using multiple quality marks on one
piece of jewelry made from multiple metals.
Jim
James Binnion Metal Arts
4701 San Leandro St #18
Oakland, CA 94601
Phone (510) 533-5108
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (510) 533-5439
Tell that to the retail store here in San Francisco who had the US
attorney come in and seize all their goods and arrest the owners. The
crime was under karating. Now they were definitely ripping off the
tourist trade down at Fishermans Warf but it is still a crime to
misrepresent the quality of the metals in the piece of jewelry.
Reply, I agree with you. I was trying to add a little humor to the
subject, but your reply showed me the danger in this approach. If
you misrepresent your product, you can be subject to both civil and
criminal sactions. The only difference is that in criminal cases, the
government must show an intent to violate the law. Unless this is a
serious problem they will most likely warn you and expect voluntarily
compliance.
Since you are a lawyer
would you please look at the FTC web page with The Guides for the Jewelry, Precious Metals, and Pewter Industries http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/jewel-gd.htm and give us an opinion on the way the guides read about using multiple quality marks on one piece of jewelry made from multiple metals.
Reply, I am not sure where the comfusion comes from. The regulations
seem clear and simple. You have an alloy which what gold is in the
jewelry industry. Pure gold is 24 k which is too soft and to use
successfully. It is then mixed with other metals. This makes it
easier to use and lasts longer. The mixture is divided by 24ths. 18
k means that the total amount of gold in the piece is 18/24. 14k is
14/24. You cannot label different parts of the same piece of jewery
differently because the piece is made up of different k weights of
gold. It is the total weight of the gold in the piece that counts. To
label the prongs 14k and the rest of the piece 18 k is imporper. The
total fraction of the piece is all that counts. If your prongs pull
your total piece down below the18k ratio, all you have is a 14k
piece. If this does not clear this up, please let me know precisely
where the confusion appears to be coming from and what specific
regulation is causing the confusion. I tried to hint at this in my
earlier writings when I said that judges and the cedit card people
will have no problem understanding this. Michael Ruffenach Attorney at Law.
Michael et al
I am going to try my hand at this and see if my interpretation is
reasonable. Are the standards saying that we should quality stamp
the piece in such a way that, if all non-metal pieces were removed,
and the resultant metals sent for assay, the quality stamp would
reflect the correct alloy?
If so, most pieces in sterling with even small amounts of copper
would not be able to be stamped sterling because the resulting melt
would alloy the two and dilute the sterling. If this is correct, are
we better off not stamping?
Debby Hoffmaster
@Debra_Hoffmaster
Thank you, Michael, for your efforts to bring some understanding of
the regulations. I’m offering my (very inflated) 2 cents worth.
. . . . You cannot label different parts of the same piece of jewery differently because the piece is made up of different k weights of gold. It is the total weight of the gold in the piece that counts. <snip> If this does not clear this up, please let me know precisely where the confusion appears to be coming from and what specific regulation is causing the confusion.
I believe that the confusion arises because the regulation does not
seem to address the marking of pieces made of non-alloyed but combined
precious metals, either with or without non-precious metals.
In our desire to adhere to the regulations and to properly inform our
buying public about the work that we produce, we find nothing in the
regulations to fit our circumstances. In those instances where all
metals used are gold and alloyed golds, applying a minimum karat mark
is possible. It is not likely that most of us can accurately
determine the percentage of gold that would be realized if the metals
used in a specific (one-of-a-kind) piece were assayed.
In conforming to the intent of marking for the minimum karat content,
we find that this approach is accurate from the regulation standpoint
but it is inadequate for our buying public. The absence of a karat
mark might lead some to believe that the piece does not contain gold.
I believe that we will have to inform our galleries and clients
concerning the application of the regulations to the marking of our
work. When pieces contain non-precious metals that are not alloyed
with the gold, as is the case with some mokume gane and when using
mixed metals, we will need to find other ways to inform about the
precious metals used in the work. This might take the form of printed
for resellers and buyers concerning the varieties of
metals used and, if applicable, a designation of the minimum ka rat of
gold that would be present for those elements which actually appear to
be of gold.
Pam Chott
Song of the Phoenix
Dear Jim,
I agree with everything that you have written in this piece. If you
are mixing metals that you described and you mark it and the markes
are confusing or misleading, you do so at your own risk. I have not
found anything in the regulations that would cover this problem. I
have tried to review these regulations, as the best that I can, and I
see nothing that would either directly or indirectly allow for a
mixing as you suggest. I see two possible solutions to the problem
and each has its own limitations. The first solution would be to
propose a new regulation to the FTC which will specifically permit
this type of work. One of the problems would be how do you let only
the “good jewelers” do it and keep out the “dishonest jewelers”.
Also, a lot of jewelry goes to all arround the world as this
discussion does. These jewelry regulations are also based upon, in
part, free trade agreements. If the jewelry does not pass in any one
country, you may be creating a problem and that other countries may
begin to retaliate against our products. Receiving world wide changes
in a conservative industry, may be very hard to do. A second solution
would be to write to the FTC and obtain a private ruling on the issue.
However, this will only protect the company or individual who applies
for the rulling. This may have happened in the case cited. The
respected artist may have obtained such a rulling and others viewing
the work may have incorectly assumed that doing this was o.k., when
they did not have a similar rulling. Also, this would not apply to
individual x , who was working on his own after he left company A, if
company A has the private rulling. I am lost to add any more brilliant
insights. If anyone believes that there is any specific regulations
supporting this practice, please give me a specific reference to the
regulation. I know their is a desire at the government not to stop
innovation in industry. However, what is good for one party may not
be received as being good for the consumer and having a level playing
field for everyone to know what the rules are and how the
apply is important too. Michael Ruffenach, Attorney at Law
Reply, I am not sure where the comfusion comes from. The regulations seem clear and simple. You have an alloy which what gold is in the jewelry industry. Pure gold is 24 k which is too soft and to use successfully. It is then mixed with other metals. This makes it easier to use and lasts longer. The mixture is divided by 24ths. 18 k means that the total amount of gold in the piece is 18/24. 14k is 14/24. You cannot label different parts of the same piece of jewery differently because the piece is made up of different k weights of gold. It is the total weight of the gold in the piece that counts. To label the prongs 14k and the rest of the piece 18 k is imporper. The total fraction of the piece is all that counts. If your prongs pull your total piece down below the18k ratio, all you have is a 14k piece. If this does not clear this up, please let me know precisely where the confusion appears to be coming from and what specific regulation is causing the confusion. I tried to hint at this in my earlier writings when I said that judges and the cedit card people will have no problem understanding this. Michael Ruffenach
I understand this part and it is how I read it as well. The
question that has been going back and forth that started this thread
is what happens when you have a piece that is say sterling base with
18K and 14k and Platinum overlay. While this is not a normal item
for the main street jewelry store it is a common item for the
designer craftsman to produce. I make rings that are sterling and 18k
and 14k I do not stamp them with any quality mark because I do not
think from my reading of the FTC regs. that it is legal to do so.
However we have had many people comment that either they or someone
that they know marks their work with all the associated quality
marks . The usual justification for this is that they saw someone who
they respected doing this so it must be ok. My point is that that it
does not matter what someone else has stamped on their work it is
what you do that will get you in trouble. So Michael if you would
please address this aspect of the question I know I and the others
involved in this thread would appreciate it.
Jim
James Binnion Metal Arts
4701 San Leandro St #18
Oakland, CA 94601
Phone (510) 533-5108
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (510) 533-5439
If you are mixing metals and you mark it and the marks are confusing or misleading, you do so at your own risk.
Dear Michael,
A couple of days ago, I posted a message to which you didn’t reply so
I’m going to pose my question again: What if I have a stamp made that
signifies “with” and stamp my pieces “14k w/18k 22k” or “14k w 18k
22k”?
Wouldn’t you agree that this meets the criteria of being neither
confusing or misleading?
Beth
Debby
If so, most pieces in sterling with even small amounts of copper would not be able to be stamped sterling because the resulting melt would alloy the two and dilute the sterling. If this is correct, are we better off not stamping?
This is the way the law reads. Even if the additions were of gold
and not copper it still would not be Sterling because there would be
less than 92.5% Silver. The law was written to prevent unscrupulous
makers from defrauding the public by making work that contained less
than the stated percent precious metal.
The law is not really very up to date. It goes back to a time when
the labor in a piece was worth less than the precious metals and the
“value” of the piece was the weight of the precious metal in it. The
precious metal was used as currency. In our world today this is not
the case as an example a mass produced ring that sells at the “Main
Street Jewelry Store” for $210 that is 14K gold and weighs 4.5 dwt
(6.9 gm) has 2.63 dwt (4.09 gm) gold in it . At todays market of
$264.90 that 2.63 dwt is worth $34.83 so the remaining $175.16 is the
labor, overhead and profit of the manufacturer and seller of the
ring. So the value is not so much the precious metals but the work
that went into making and selling it. The public in general does not
understand this. So as a designer craftsman you make a piece with
multi-metals and sell it for $400 and it weighs 4.5 dwt and has 1.3
dwt of gold in it. Your are not selling it for the price of the gold
you are selling it for your design skills and labor and overhead
costs. So list the metals in your literature but don’t get hung up on
stamping it. And if a client asks about stamping tell them it is
intended for commodity items and what you are selling them is your
skills and labor in this beautiful piece. I have never had a problem
with a client when I describe it in this fashion.
Jim –
James Binnion Metal Arts
4701 San Leandro St #18
Oakland, CA 94601
Phone (510) 533-5108
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (510) 533-5439
@James_Binnion
Member of the Better Business Bureau