I'm curious- how long would it take you to carve a ballerina ring
like one of the emerald cut mountings shown here:
As you say in the rest of your post, or imply, and as I also say
today, that’s not waxwork. I might wax the shank, and I probably
would wax a ballerina wave for the top, but I would do the piercing
and certainly the wirework in metal. Yes, the job itself would take
hours, but the WAX work would be a couple of hours. As I also say in
another post today, I don’t believe that the original post, Pricing
Those Custom Waxes, is really asking, “Well the King of Persia called
me today…” Sure, I’ve spent 20 or 100 hours on things, too. The
question was, “How can I arrive at a competitive price in a
competitive world.” And that’s what I’ve been trying to address. I
used to assemble ballerinas (back when people bought them - they’re
pretty out of the loop, these days), and have made several. They
aren’t a “monolithic” item. In my mind, trying to carve a ballerina
out of a chunk of wax is just asking for it… Trying to wax fifty 22
gauge prongs- ditto. I put 2 prongs on the shank 180 deg. apart,
solder the (pierced) top plate in place with those two prongs, all
straight and square, and then just go around and lay the others in
place, one by one. Bang, bang, bang. The only difficult part - and
it’s not difficult, just laborious, is the piercing.
Man has everyone here become a factory? I have only read a few
responses to Kevins question about pricing wax carving and I have to
say Im annoyed. I am pretty green to some of you old timers-I have
been carving wax for only 6 years of my 12 years in jewelry industry.
But its what I love to do. I am the custom guy/wax carver/designer
and shop manager where I work. I just wonder why people are so
disgusted that a crafsman who has advanced skills that has worked for
years and always will be to develop isnt allowed to take his time to
do something he/she is proud of. Some of us take pride in excellent
craft-not a robot that works per piece.Yes I believe in getting to it
and getting the job done but if you carve a “complicated” wax with
more than one stone in one hour then I want to see how great it
really is. Some people who carve quick waxes have no eye for symmetry
or detail, proportion or thickness of material.I hope people arent
trying to compete with CAD made waxes. On average its about $250 for
CAD and CAM of a wax but its a machine-dont try to compete with
that-thats an entirely different product. What we do,or most of us I
hope,is an art and lets NOT forget that.We are not machines.I paid a
lot(still am) for my training and am proud of it.Paying customers
love to know there are still craftspeople out ther making things by
hand and are willing to pay for it. I dont spend 20 hours on a wax
anymore but if I did its probably for reason. Plus you have to learn
on the fly with this stuff most of the time-Rome wasnt built in a
day-there arent apprentice programs anymore because the business is
so tight most of us are self employed not able to even have someone
in our shop taking up our time as an apprentice never mind paying
them to learn. Whew had to get that off my chest. I just dont like
that people think this is a simple trade “Oh why does that take so
long, couldnt ya just do this, seems easy…”
Oh and by the way John, if you are as good as you say (and you
certainly have the years under your belt to be), you have to
remember that the time it takes YOU to do a wax is not an industry
average.
I’m afraid I have to agree with John on this. The times he’s posted
look reasonably like my own, and we both have a similar amount of
experience under our belts. Yes, we are pretty fast, I’m sure, but
this is familiar territory, often fairly generic forms and designs.
This kind of work for us becomes as regular as any other repair or
fabrication stuff. What it comes to is this. John and I both work for
the trade. We have to come up with estimates so that the retailer can
bounce their price off their customer for the job. And if one is
honest, one charges what the job requires, based on what his or her
shop needs to make per hour. Finally, I can’t speak for John, but I
assume my accounts will be happy customers if I don’t cut in on their
room to add a margin, or cause them to blow a customer out the door.
If they’re going to overcharge, I want it on their conscience, not
mine. After carving literally tens of thousands of waxes of all
levels of complexity, you can usually come up with a pretty accurate
off-the-cuff figure.
There’s no point in comparing the pricing on this type of work with
somebody like Yurman or yourself. It would be more accurate to find
out what Yurman pays somebody to do waxes, if that is indeed
something he does. Think of it this way… suppose you had a customer
who wanted a custom piece and it required somebody else to carve it,
for some reason. $100 to carve a wax can cost a customer $250, and
$200 can cost $500… you wouldn’t want to force your customer to pay
the extra $250 because somebody took twice as long to carve that wax
than if you’d given it to a pro like us, right? Of course, the
extra money would go in your pocket… Or would you trim your margin
somewhat?
The work on your website is quite nice. I'm curious- how long would
it take you to carve a ballerina ring like one of the emerald cut
mountings shown heRe: http://tinyurl.com/uk2a6
Excuse me for butting in. If you really want some hack work like
those examples, I’d carve that wax for around $200, and I wouldn’t be
able to help myself from doing better than that. But if you want the
real thing (and I used to work as a specialist fabricationg
balarinas), I can make a good one for you in base metal, make a mold,
and cast if for around $500 plus gold cost, then you can make a bunch
of them and break up your cost of prototyping. A one shot deal
fabricated in gold, figure around $800-$1000, not including stones.
And from what I understand, I’m not the cheapest kid on the block.
How would those prices compare to yours, John? Am I in the ballpark?
The times he's posted look reasonably like my own, and we both have
a similar amount of experience under our belts.
This is exactly my point on this one. You guys are both far more
experienced than most people in this type of work. But that doesn’t
make you the industry average. It makes you at the high end of the
scale, but that isn’t what the industry has to use to determine costs
since MOST people aren’t as experienced as you are. Sure some people
will find someone like you guys to do it, but most won’t. So while it
would be nice if everyone were as fast as you they aren’t and that’s
what determines the averages.
Think of it this way... suppose you had a customer who wanted a
custom piece and it required somebody else to carve it, for some
reason. $100 to carve a wax can cost a customer $250, and $200 can
cost $500... you wouldn't want to force your customer to pay the
extra $250 because somebody took twice as long to carve that wax
than if you'd given it to a pro like us, right? :-)
Well actually I use people who I trust and products that I believe
in and I base my prices on what I pay and if someone doing a job for
me is more expensive than others, but I know them and their work,
than the customer is just going to have to pay more. I could go to a
machine engraver and have people’s rings engraved by machine for half
what I charge them to be done by my hand engraver. But I know my hand
engraver, she does great work and she’s carrying out a rapidly dying
trade in the industry. I’d much rather give her the business any day.
And as it happens, I make more money on her work than I would on a
machine engraving, which is just more gravy. I understand your
dedication to your customers but I think if you use your own time
frame to produce something (say instead of what it would take an
employee of yours to do the same thing) you’re underselling
yourself. Anyone with the amount of experience you have should be
getting absolute top dollar for your work.
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
How would those prices compare to yours, John? Am I in the
ballpark?
Yes, David - depending, of course, on whether the ring is a 1 ct. or
10 ct. and 15 baguettes or 65. As is the joy of forums, this thread
has evolved beyond it’s original topic. There’s another post today
from one Brent about quality and craftsmanship that’s valid, too.
Let me see if I can illustrate what I’m trying to put out there.
Everyone has seen someone who draws well. You sit there and watch
them just put a line on paper, and it just miraculously jumps off the
paper. (Obscure Jefferson Airplane: Look at the Wood and the Way he
carves it, must have taken him years). This isn’t about ego or
boasting, I, and David, too, are trying to give some of you peek into
the jewelry world. I occasionally do short run production, but by and
large I do special order. That means that someone hands me a job bag
and says, “Make this.” It ranges from entirely their design to
entirely my design and everything in between. Mostly I don’t get to
choose. Everything I make is different, sometimes very different.
Thousands and thousands (no exaggeration- 32 years) of pieces. So,
I’m the guy you watch draw. If I said, “I have made every thing”,
which I wouldn’t, that wouldn’t mean EVERY thing. But that piece is a
left hand curve and an inner line, that one is a rotary thingy and a
smursh, and so on. Jewelry is a compilation of fundamental tasks -
all of it. Where some might see a ballerina as a dazzling dispay of
baguettes, I see it as a standard basket setting - a setting plate
suspended by prongs. And this is where Brent comes in. As David
says, “That’s automatic.” I mostly deal with what are called “Guild”
stores - fine jewelers with high standards. There is no second
quality. What I make IS “beautiful, hand crafted, exquisite” - again,
not ego, it’s my job. The customer has to say, “Wow, that’s
beautiful.” or I have failed. If the quality is off, they’ll just
kick it back. I’m the guy who people bring their headaches to - I
reworked a 200 year old brooch a couple of weeks ago, and the first
thing I did was think long and hard about the plan. 98% of it,
though, is, “Oh, another one of those…” I’m a professional artist -
I don’t need to figure out how to do it, I KNOW how to do it. That’s
my job, and it’s really just a job. It just happens to be more fun
than most.
I think if more people knew some simple techniques to quickly
remove the bulk of wax and get close to the finished dimensions
quickly and accurately, they’d enjoy carving.
Probably the essence of it all, Kate. But I’m writing to compliment
you on your beautiful set of tools katewolfdesigns.com. I don’t work
like that (flexshaft, files, gravers), but that’s a really nice set.
You guys are both far more experienced than most people in this
type of work. But that doesn't make you the industry average.
Daniel. most all of what you’ve said on this thread is, to my mind,
reasonable and true. The above statement though… Well, that’s the
whole point, I think. We ARE the industry average, probably a little
ahead, but not much. When I quote a job, they think that’s fair and
about average or so. When people around me do work, it’s roughly in
my time. We represent probably a different niche than some, but
that’s
what I’ve been trying to drive home. Yes, we can work like this, but
no, we are not alone. And Margie, your point of fabrication/wax is
well taken. I have said that to jog people - don’t pound your head
against the wall, use the proper method for the job and sleep at
night. Finally - I don’t know Kate Wolf at all and she shows no real
work on her site, except for wax tools. My first impression, though:
Genuine, qualified, skilled model makers are as rare as can be. Kate
says all the right words at all the right times. Since she now
teaches wax work, I have a suspicion that if you were looking for
something like that, you could do a lot worse…
I have read all the posts on this subject, and for the most part
agree with John and David. I have been carving waxes for nearly
thirty years, and our small manufacturing business (Fayrick Mfg.
Inc.) specializes in custom design.
I have taught myself to carve quickly and accurately, but
occasionally find myself carving the same piece two and three times
until I am completely happy with the results. Do I charge the
customer for the time spent on carving all three times? The answer is
no, and the reason is simple; I should have done the job correctly
and accurately the first time, and I “write” the time off as the
expense of learning to be better at my life’s work.
A customer comes to me for my experience and expertise, and they
expect results and charges they can make money on, not simply passing
the costs on to their customer. Thank goodness after thirty years is
doesn’t happen very often, but the most important part of a good
working relationship between a manufacturer and a retailer is “Let
there be no surprises”. Both parties must make money, and the end
customer must be satisfied.
Someone I know personally wrote me off forum and, among other things,
asked me if that was a flame towards Kate Wolf. Quite the contrary.
My thoughts about her were that she strikes me as someone who knows
what she’s doing, does it well, and would likely be an especially
good person to learn waxwork from. Just want that to be straight. If
one person can think it, two people can…
Of course, the