Pricing those custom waxes

Whats wrong with 18 hours for $250? Thats less than $14/HR. I don't
know about anyone else, but I think anyone who has the tenacity
and" 

Because you have expenses, even if you don’t do ANYTHING but cut
wax:

  1. Out of that comes 25% for income taxes (or more)

  2. You have an amount of time where you have NOTHING to do or maybe
    you have paperwork to do. Assume this:

    a. You have 3 jobs this week, 1 takes 18 hours, 1 takes 8 hours
    and 1 takes 4 hours. You make $14 an hour on each.

    b. You have to deliver the 3 jobs to the store or to the
    customer

    c. Or you mail them

    d. Or you send them out to be cast and go there or mail them.

    e. you run to the bank

    f. you clean up the wax room.

  3. After all is said and done you work a 40 hour week, but get paid
    for the 3 jobs at $14 an hour a total of $410. 40 hours divided into
    $420 is not $14 an hour $10.50. Surely you can make better than that
    working someplace.

David Geller
JewelerProfit
510 Sutters Point
Sandy Springs, GA. 30328
(404) 255-9565
www.JewelerProfit.com

Richard,

That’s the starting price for the finished piece including the
model. Depending, obviously, on how much metal is used and the
complexity of the piece the price can go up from there. Stones are
over and above that price.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

David, I like where you are coming from.

The last place I worked retail bid jobs at $75 an hour and that was
4 years ago. I think now they are over $100. To this they added
materials etc. You have got to think of all of the hidden costs as
you pointed out. I have a friend who works herself to the bone. She
thinks that because she is always swamped that she will make money,
yet she is always hurting for money. She doesn’t know how to bill
properly. She unfortunately equates busyness to making profit. Better
to have free time to do other things than working yourself to the
bone and fooling yourself about how much money you are making.

Of course everyone has to come up with what they think they are
worth. I would hope everyone in the jewerly business would start
thinking they are worth at least what a carpenter makes. Here
carpenters make about $25 an hour. Carpentry is a skilled occupation
but generally a jeweler has to have more equipment on hand and more
experience to do a masterful job. so you nned to add in charges to
cover your equipment, etc.

So everyone, start charging what you are worth! Bid the jobs high,
you may always ‘modify’ the project to accomodate a lower budget. You
can’t often up grade the cost.

Good luck Dennis

And I do not think David's objective is to sell his book. He gives
a lot of info for free on this forum, 

I believe his objective is both - it doesn’t bother me. I looked at a
sample of his book online long ago, and I think it is good for just
who he says it’s good for - retail counterpeople in you basic
everyday jewelry store. I am a special-order jeweler, though, like
many here. That means that every piece I make is different. I did
extensive repair on a chalice (ciborium, actually) from the mid -
1700’s that was purported to be from Junipero Serra - that is the
sort of thing that no book will have in it, and that’s a lot of what
we do. But for a retailer who needs a pricing scheme for his people,
it’s probably the perfect thing…

Meaning that you're not going to fool anybody into paying $1200 for a
$90 wax - you'll be the fool.

English. Try it. If I had meant to say that people don’t do work
that’s worth a lot of money, then that’s what I would have said.
Context. This thread is about speed, efficiency, and a fair price for
a fair product. If one wants to argue that $1200 is a fair price for
a
$90 wax, then just go ahead and do that.

Good Luck…

Meaning that you're not going to fool anybody into paying $1200 for
a $90 wax - you'll be the fool. I'm reading here about $750 waxes
and such, and it's like "Huh?" 

OK, I’ve been outed, I AM A FOOL…

Here’s a story from the consumer perspective, meant as an
inspirational tale for those who undercharge:

In 1985 I was getting married and wanted a custom ring. We didn’t
have a lot of money, but wanted something unique. I asked around,
(no yellow pages!) and based on a recommendation from a friend, we
choose a local jeweler who charged around $1700 (yes, that’s one
thousand seven hundred) for consultation, custom design &
fabrication – PLUS the cost of gold and diamond. The final ring
cost just under $3000. (He operated out of a shop, in an office
building, not a retail setup. A nice place, with several employees.)

Was he the best in town? I don’t know–but because he was the most
expensive, I assumed he MUST the best. The other jewelers I talked
to on the phone, initially, charged SO, SO LITTLE for design that I
thought they must not be very good…

When I got married the second time in 1999 – I went back to the
same jeweler. Similar price, about ($2000) for design and
fabrication, diamond and gold were additional. He ordered several
diamonds from his New York dealer in our price/quality range and we
picked our favorite. He charged us 10% over his cost on the diamond.
As someone who values design, I was very happy to pay for design and
fabrication instead of a big markup on the materials.

I don’t FEEL like a fool… (well, maybe a little foolish about that
first marriage…) A non-custom ring with a similar size/quality
diamond at Tiffany’s was costing twice what we paid, for example.

Although if I had been reading Orchid in 1999, I’d have known that
there are lots of excellent jewelers who charge less… I would have
met them and looked at their work – but, at that time, in my
ignorance, I assumed that for custom work, price = quality. (and so
do MANY OTHERS…)

C. Rose
Houston

You'd be amazed in retail how many folks get it. A $750 wax is an 8
hour day doing one wax. 

I’m sorry. This, I think is the source of my amazement. I simply
cannot fathom what a person could be doing on a wax for 8 hours. That
is, of course, a jewelry wax. Certainly some sculpture takes a year
of waxwork, but a ring? I do apologize, but I sit here and I think,
“Figurative carving?” “Ballerina?”, whatever, and I just can’t
imagine it. To me it’s like saying it takes an hour to tie your
shoes. I’m serious, I just can’t imagine sitting down for 8 hours
with
one wax, or what processes could possibly be done that would take
that long to do. Not only that, but I look at absolutely everybody’s
websites, and I just don’t see any pieces like that there, either…
I can see a real novice or student taking that long, sure. This isn’t
a hit on anybody. But by and large the people posting on this thread
are working jewelers, and I’m just mystified what they could be doing
on a wax for that long. I just don’t get it.

I’m not a wax carver but a guy a work with is excellent he made a
ring that took 8 hours, It was a mans sinet type with deep intaglio
with a coat of arms and a detailed squirrel for the mascot. The stuff
he does usually takes lots of time, Lots of deep detail. I can see
charging $750 + for the work he’s doing.

My $.02
Candy

I have worked with many very talented carvers in the past 30 and in
a “high End” setting I can easily see a carving take 4-8 hours or
more if components are involved. Model Making and important pieces
could take even more. I think this all depends on what the scale of
jewelry is.

Gassho
Karl

Gee, I have a friend who can carve waxes that are so delicate and
refined that they boggle the imagination. He did a piece a few years
ago composed of leaves with delicate textures on their surfaces.
These leaves twisted and turned similar to celtic patterns and
delicately held a stone in place. It held a really large tourmoline;
the piece was about 2 inche tall, 1 1/2 inches wide and none of the
leaves were more that a quarter of an inch long or wider than 2 mm.
It was a work with as much negative space as metal. It weighed
nothing, it was surprizingly strong however because he had carved
sturctural supports into the back of the piece that followed the form
of the leaves. I remember it took him about 3 days to carve this wax.
When it was cast we had to do nothing but remove the spruing, polish
it up, and set the stone. He is a master and I can’t believe that it
could have taken any less time what time he took in the carving was
made up in the lack of time spent on other processes. I saw him carve
a large bas relief teddy bear once, complete with wavey fur and a big
bow that looked like it was tied by hand. It only took him about two
hours, but he seemd inspired. I was amazed. Art takes time.

Dennis

I do apologize, but I sit here and I think, "Figurative carving?"
"Ballerina?", whatever, and I just can't imagine it. whatever, and
I just can't imagine it. To me it's like saying it takes an hour to
tie your shoes. I'm serious, I just can't imagine sitting down for
8 hours with one wax

As far as eight hours is concerned, perhaps your research should
include miniature animal sculpture… try carving a dog small enough
to sit on the face of a dime. Now, using a breeders standard book
with front - back - top - side profiles and muscle structure for a
guide. Then consider the type of hair, the pattern of the hair, the
spacing of the eyeballs, the tilt of the ears, the spacing between
the feet and the precise spacing of the nostrils on the dog face.
This is done under 10X magnification using a a 28ga. wax pen tip and
a sewing needle attached to a small pin vice. If you can do it in
less than 8 hours and completely satisfy a breeder from the AKC then
you go with my blessings. Oh, by the way, a coctail ring with a
three carat oval sapphire and twenty two round brilliant diamonds
surrounding the center stone set at a fifteen degree angle in shared
prongs with an open double gallery and a split shank will take me
eight hours as well.

Margie - doing my best to show pics of these pieces on my website.
www.mmwaxmodels.com

www.mmwaxmodels.com
Margie Mersky Custom Designs, INC

Then consider the type of hair, the pattern of the hair, the
spacing of the eyeballs, the tilt of the ears, the spacing between
the feet and the precise spacing of the nostrils on the dog face.
This is done under 10X magnification using a a 28ga. wax pen tip
and a sewing needle attached to a small pin vice. If you can do it
in less than 8 hours and completely satisfy a breeder from the AKC
then you go with my blessings" 

Actually I don’t disagree on the time. My store did many intricate
work that took a day.

The question is how much you’re paid for the day.

I firmly believe that if a wax takes one hour and you charge $xx.xx
for that wax, that if you did 8 of those in a row, 8 hours in a day,
then you should be paid for the single wax charge 8 times.

And if one wax takes 8 hours, it should pay you the same thing as
8-1 hour waxes did.

David Geller
JewelerProfit
510 Sutters Point
Sandy Springs, GA. 30328
(404) 255-9565
www.JewelerProfit.com

Margie,

As far as eight hours is concerned, perhaps your research should
include miniature animal sculpture.... try carving a dog small
enough to sit on the face of a dime.

I second that. I have been listening to the ranting about how a
custom wax should take 3 minutes with incredible detail and I thought
that my 35 years of experience was going down the tubes due to aging
eyes and body. At least I now know that the many hours and sometimes
days I put into a custom wax is not just aging but attention to
detail.

Happy Holidays
Greg DeMark
www.demarkjewelry.com

a coctail ring with a three carat oval sapphire and twenty two
round brilliant diamonds surrounding the center stone set at a
fifteen degree angle in shared prongs with an open double gallery
and a split shank will take me eight hours as well. 

2-3, max. Sorry.

Gee, I have a friend who can carve waxes that are so delicate and
refined that they boggle the imagination. He did a piece a few years

Our website is posted on each and every posting here. I don’t need to
explain, my work is there for all to see. Many people have told me
I’m a “Master Craftsman”. I think of myself as “John”. That being
said, I will reiterate to what I said long ago about what this thread
is about: Pricing those custom waxes. I do special order work,
whether it’s wax or fabrication or both, mostly for stores - that’s
what the original question was about. If someone makes a wax and it
takes them 8 hours to make it, but the prevailing time for that task
in the industry is more like 2 hours, then they are merely slow and
can’t rightfully expect to get 4 times as much money. And that’s all
I
really have said, and all I have meant to say. Today I am delivering
a 1 ct. tanzanite in white gold. It’s a bypass ring (an “S” curve)
with 3 graduated stones down each side. The wax took just about 45
minutes to make, at a normal pace. Yes, the ring is “unique”, but it
also is a common task, something we can look at and say, “That’s
about a 1 hour job.”, much like a Flat Rate Manual. And if it takes
someone else 3 hours to do it, the jewelry world, in the long run, is
going to pay them the same price as they pay me for 45 minutes.
That’s all.

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com

John,

And if it takes someone else 3 hours to do it, the jewelry world,
in the long run, is going to pay them the same price as they pay me
for 45 minutes. That's all. 

I’m not so sure about that. If that were the case then no one would
ever pay David Yurman’s prices or the prices some other top name
jewelers get. Many of the designer jewelers you see in Neiman
Marcus, etc. get a whole lot more money for work that someone else
(often anyone else) can make much quicker, and possibly cheaper. They
can do it because they have a name, not because their work is
necessarily better than anyone else’s (not always the case, but
often). My name, in my area, allows me to get a better price than
most jewelers around here. I have been around long enough, am well
enough known, and have a great reputation for honesty, so I can ask
higher prices for the same thing someone else might do for less. Do I
do this all the time? No, usually I try to direct people to other
places if they want something that isn’t consistent with my look, but
then I have customers who simply won’t use any other jeweler because
they want me to do all of their work. If they want to pay me 2-3
times what they might be able to get some commercial looking setting
for elsewhere, because I don’t really want to do the work, that’s ok
with me. Of course they also know that when I do it, it’s still going
to look better than any commercial setting available, it will be
better made and more durable and it’s guaranteed for life.

Oh and by the way John, if you are as good as you say (and you
certainly have the years under your belt to be), you have to remember
that the time it takes YOU to do a wax is not an industry average.
You should be significantly quicker than the industry average. So in
fact if something takes you 2 hours, it probably takes a person with
only 5 years experience 4-5 hours to do. Consequently if pricing is
based on industry average it’s going to be based on much slower times
than yours.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

I do apologize, but I sit here and I think, "Figurative carving?"
"Ballerina?", whatever, and I just can't imagine it. whatever, and
I just can't imagine it. To me it's like saying it takes an hour to
tie your shoes. I'm serious, I just can't imagine sitting down for
8 hours with one wax 

John, The work on your website is quite nice. I’m curious- how long
would it take you to carve a ballerina ring like one of the emerald
cut mountings shown here:

(with bevelled azures and pierced out gallery work.) And how much do
you charge per hour?:

I agree with Margie Mersky’s post about doing intricate figurative
pieces. When I was carving Disney pieces I was working really really
small (under a stereo zoom microscope and carving with a sewing
needle that I tapered to half diameter and put a diagonal bevel on).
Working at this scale, I’d have to do the eyes 20 - 30 times until I
got them right and matching.

I made my living as a wax carver for 17 years. I’ve carved many many
models that took more than 8 hours. Most of them were master models-
the pieces were to be molded and mass produced. The range of prices
for my waxes was $50- $2,400. $50 for a simple band. $2,400 for more
intricate carvings- some of them with multiple pieces and pegged.
There’s a wide range of quality out there- some folks take their
waxes 50 percent of the way and do the remainder of the work in
metal. I find it much much easier to take the wax 95 percent of the
way (wax is very forgiving and easy to repair). It’s not that I’m
not comfortable working in metal- I fabricated 35 percent of my
master models directly in metal. I charged $65 to $90 an hour -
depending on how excruciating it would be (some work had a PITA
Surcharge- Pain In The Ass Surcharge). I had only one person question
my pricing (the former production manager at QVC- who quibbled at the
first invoice, but kept sending me more and more work, because he
liked the quality.) I never solicited work, and always had at least 2
months work lined up.

I think if more people knew some simple techniques to quickly remove
the bulk of wax and get close to the finished dimensions quickly and
accurately, they’d enjoy carving. I use a drill press to mill the
surfaces of the wax, and a trimming jig (somewhat like Matt’s
trimming jigs- but I have them custom made for my classes- soon to
be marketed) with a coarse cylinder bur to get the wax close to the
desired dimensions, then I finish it up by hand with cylinder burs,
wax burs, a double ended wax file, gravers and my Wolf’s Precision
Wax Carvers. I also do free hand turning on the flex shaft (poor
man’s lathe) to get my basic shapes. Unfortunately, I didn’t know
most of these time saving techniques 10 -15 years ago.

Nope, I’m not doing contract carving any more. I’m concentrating on
tool design and teaching.

Have a great day!

Kate Wolf in Portland, Maine. Hosting wicked good workshops by the
bay. Nope, the 2007 schedule is not up yet.

www.wolftools.biz

I have spent as much as four days on the wax components for a belt
buckle. The background of the buckle had a Sierra scene with
mountains and a creek flowing out to the bottom front edge. It also
had a channel border around it to “frame” the scene. This was cast in
fine silver, and the border inlaid with natural nuggets from the
foothills. (The “gold country” is about an hour from where I live)

A bearded miner panning for gold was squatting over the creek. A
pick and a shovel leaning on a rock. All of these were then cast in
various colors of gold. The miner was yellow, his pan was white with
a couple nuggets in it. The pick and shovel handles were red. The
head and blades of the tools were white.

After the piece was cast and assembled, the details were chased and
hand engraved for further clarity and crisp detail.

Looking back at my records - it was built for a jewelry store owner
in 1982 who supplied all of the materials. Took a total of 170 hours
to make it from start to finish. Back then - I billed him $2,500 for
my time!

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-477-0550
www.jewelryartschool.com

Well it looks like I’m the bad guy on this one. That’s ok, I’m
smiling. Often, disagreement is more useful than agreement. Long
ago, someone told me, “The day I started being successful was the day
I decided to quit building monuments.” Anyone whose troubled to look
at my work might have noticed a gold statue of liberty. That’s a
monument (though it was an order - presold), and yes, it took a good
week of waxwork. But that’s not what this thread is about. The
original question, and still the question is, in essence, “How can I
make a living doing waxes, and keep my customers in a competitive
business, and thrive.” Yes, you can charge someone $2000 for a wax,
and more power to you. Are they going to come back? Not if everyone
else, and there is always someone else, is charging $500 for the
same work. I never mention quality because we assume that. I’ll use
one more example from here. Margie Mersky mentioned doing a cluster
ring in 8 hours, and I said much less. One reason I said that is
because it’s not a wax job to begin with - knowing when to wax and
when to not is 1/2 the battle. I would build the top, and the shank,
in wax (or not), and fabricate the rest. Why? 1) I can use drawn wire
for prongs - greatly superior. 2) I don’t have to try to polish all
those cast wires and keep them looking like wire 3) I can polish it
on the inside before it’s assembled, and 4) It’s WAY easier. The
point being that it’s not just speed or efficiency or carving skill,
it’s knowing the best way to do a given job. Making a cluster like
this is not just faster and more profitable, it’s also a superior job

  • a finer piece of jewelry. What I’m saying is many people, some that
    I deal with, try to wax everything. Someone wanted to wax this logo
    done in twisted wire, like a western rope thing. I said, “Jeez, just
    get some twisted wire and loop it around.” 20 minutes, and a real
    twist, instead of an hour, and a better-or-worse carved twist. Again,
    easier AND a better piece of jewelry. There ARE people who do
    extraordinary work. I’ve seen 100 people who do way more
    extraordinary work than my own. I’ll tell you, they know who they
    are. Most people, though, have their work in a showcase right next to
    someone elses, and it comes down to an art versus cost thing. “Do I
    really like this three times as much because that’s the cost?” “Does
    it even LOOK like three times the piece of jewelry?” It’s not about
    monuments, it’s about making a living. Building monuments is another
    thread.

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com

Well I hope this thread has been an eye opener for everyone.

What I took from this thread was

  1. Some people are slower or faster than others for the same item.

  2. That people who think they should get more money, ask for it, and
    get it.

  3. People who think customers won’t pay have been 100% right.

  4. People who think customers will have to pay, are also 100% right.

  5. Sounds like “knowing” and “asking” go hand in hand.

David Geller
JewelerProfit
510 Sutters Point
Sandy Springs, GA. 30328
www.JewelerProfit.com