Hi…and it’s called CYA. The school is responsible for any
injuries, and some schools (and school boards of regents) decide it’s
better to tell them no than teach them how. After having a class on
woodworking in my college days, I’d have to say it would be scary.
Some of those kids (mostly guys, mostly just out of school) were
doing pretty dangerous things.
The other aspect is that some schools don’t have the funding to
cover the recommended minimums to prevent hazards from harming
people. My husband’s class isn’t so strict, though they were masks
and clean up after themselves, and we appreciate it.
My personal belief is that everyone ought to know what the hazards
are, what the risks and benefits are, then choose for themselves. For
example, we don’t use a heated pickle unless we’re using lemon juice
because we don’t have the facilities here to do so safely (and I’m
very allergic to the weirdest things, and so is our son.)
that goes into additional testing, Borax, could not find a study that
expanded that far, and none of the MSDS listed took the study that I
could find) to thermal byproducts.
Those MSDS sheets always make for scary reading! Is anyone else using
boric acid in alcohol as a flux? If so, what type of safety
precautions do you employ?
Potential Acute Health Effects: Hazardous in case of skin contact
(irritant)
My dad used to use boric acid has foot powder to control foot odor.
He said that’s what they used in the Marine Corp in WW II. If he
smelled bad feet on any of us kids he made us take a bath and gave
our shoes a good powdering. And I’m still walking around on the same
feet that were exposed to boric acid. IMHO another case of what
doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.
Rick Copeland
Silversmith and Lapidary Artisan
Rocky Mountain Wonders
Colorado Springs, Colorado rockymountainwonders.com
Just to clarify a term that’s been tossed around here…
“tetragenic” isn’t a word and has no meaning. The correct term is
“teratogenic.” Teratology is the study of birth defects and includes
the disciplines that study toxicity on developing embryos and
fetuses.
It could be especially useful to use the correct term in researching
specific exposure risks in a shop.
Hope this helps!
Karen Goeller
No Limitations Designs
Hand-made, one-of-a-kind jewelry www.nolimitations.com
Those MSDS sheets always make for scary reading! Is anyone else
using boric acid in alcohol as a flux? If so, what type of safety
precautions do you employ?
I have used boric acid in alcohol as anti-firescale flux for at
least 30 years, almost every day. It doesn’t make for very good
soldering flux, so I add either a white paste flux or the green
liquid Battern’s flux for the joints.
The main precaution I use is VENTILLATION! I also wash my hands a
lot. I have never experienced any irritation that I thought was from
boric acid. Sodium bisulphate (Sparex) pickel is a skin irritant and
the fumes are bad. The fluoride fumes from paste flux are very bad,
so USE VENTILLATION!
It constantly amazes me how many jewelers can’t be bothered to set
up proper ventillation for their soldering. There are less toxic
materials you can use, but none of them are totally safe and they
generally don’t work as well. With good ventillation you can safely
use all the bad stuff that really gets the job done.
BTW, boric acid used to be sold in drug stores as eye wash. The
first time I ever bought any it was to treat an eye infection for a
kitten when I was about 12 years old. I have used it for an eye wash
myself, but I notice on the packaging now that it tells you not to
use it as an eye wash or as a skin powder. Now, if they have it at
all at the drug store it is usually behind the counter. I wonder why
they sell it in drug stores at all if the traditional uses as eye
wash and skin powder are now offsides. Lucky for us the jewelry
supply houses are now selling it. You can also buy boric acid as
“roach powder” at builders suppliers.
In a teaching situation, I can’t see how a school can justify
teaching soldering without ventillation. Safer materials for flux
and pickel may be less harmful, but what is the lesson learned? The
school set up becomes the model for the studio the students set up
for themselves when they move on. Chances are they may well discover
how much better real flux and real pickel work. I know when you are
teaching soldering, a bigger danger is that the students will get
burned or start a fire. Somehow that danger is easier to understand
and deal with than possible long term health effects from exposure
to various materials. It seems to me that you had better CYA with
good VENTILLATION!
Jewelers have been using boric acid and alcohol for eons, we have had
this discussion before on other items. We need to be aware, but at
the same time we just have to deal with it. How many of us smoke or
drink while we are reading the MSDS sheets. Do you wear a vapor mask
when you fill your car up with gas. I have been a jeweler since I was
14 and now am 50 as of today and I am still here. By the way if you
like princess cuts the others can deal with it. My favorite cut is
oval and nobody is going to tell me any different, and I have used
every shaped stone for cufflinks and sold them all, and what about
the times I have set stones upside down, heaven forbid. We all have
opinions and some on this forum don’t have the space for that.
Is anyone else using boric acid in alcohol as a flux? If so, what
type of safety precautions do you employ?
I use active ventilation at the soldering bench, in the form of a
small fan, wall mounted and vented to the outdoors, connected to a
length of dryer hose with a sheet metal scoop on the end (just
because I kept melting the dryer hose). This also can pull debris
from flex-shaft rubber wheels, etc. out of my work area.
My dad used to use boric acid has foot powder to control foot
odor.
Another traditional use of boric acid, still recommended by many, is
as an eye wash. Quite dilute, of course, but still… this seems
like pretty benign stuff. Anyone freaked out by the MSDS might
consider checking the MSDS for something familiar like acetic acid
(vinegar) or vodka (ethanol) for perspective.
Clarifying more…the site below says the following: Tetragenic : Any
substance or agent that is capable of interfering with normal
embryonic development and can produce non-heritable birth defects.
Tetragenic substances are most often radiation or chemicals.[xx]
And the word is used in the following in several examples…ie:pages
168-169
Drug testing procedures were far more relaxed at this time, and
although tests had taken place on thalidomide, they didn’t reveal any
of its tetragenic…
I apologize for bringing that might irritate people.
These things require research (more of it). I didn’t think the
wonderful moderator would appreciate the whole research project.
Boric acid is used as an eye wash. One spoonful to a Quart (could be
gallon, can’t recall just now) of water, and it’s a wonderful eye
wash for cleansing it of bacteria. Though there are now questions
about it’s use.
These things are bits of …read but don’t hang your life
or livelihood on them.
I played with Mercury when I was a kid. My dad and grandpa had a
bunch of it and we touched it, split it, carried it, let it roll down
our leg or arm. I’m still here. Of course, I now have children with
ADD and learning disabilities. I see the higher numbers of children
being diagnosed with Autism. Maybe some of these things are
connected, and maybe not. But I hope everyone would take the time to
learn what they can and make every decision an informed one. Afterall
I’ve been stung by hundreds of fire ants down south and am okay. My
son, however, has a bite from anything and has horrible reactions.
And a friend was stung by less fire ants and died. Who knows what in
our makeup leaves us susceptible or not…
Learning is always good. Knowing and making an informed decision is
my goal, and I hope the goal of others, as well.
That sounds like a good system M’lou. I need to look at all the
possibilities before knocking holes in my house walls, but it’s
certainly an option. I’m getting advice from both sides of the fence
some say I must ventilate, others that they don’t and they’re okay
so it’s difficult to know how important it is.
I’m now hiding behind the sofa for fear of the lambasting I may get
when I ask exactly what you mean by ventilation. Are we talking
about huge, expensive exhaust systems or opening the studio window?
It constantly amazes me how many jewelers can't be bothered to set
up proper ventillation for their soldering.
I’m sort of one of those “can’t be bothered” types I guess, or
rather one with the thinking that “I’ll get around to it soon” and
“so many jewellers have done this for years without such precautions
and they’re still around”. There was talk about it recently and about
how masks can put strain on the heart and respiratory system. That
adds another dimension to think about. What level of “ventilation”
are we talking about being necessary when burning boric acid in
alcohol. It’s the only flux I use.
It’s something that causes me constant concern, as I do everything
at my bench and so I am breathing in some pretty horrible things,
including all the soldering fumes and polishing dust. I’ve tried
wearing masks but find them unbearably claustrophobic and so if that
was what I had to wear, I’d never make anything. So I stumble on in
the hope of suddenly realising a workable solution one day.
Any advice definitely gratefully received, thanks.
I can’t say whether the websites you cite are well-edited because I
don’t know them; nor do I know anything about the book you cited.
But, if you check the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), you’ll find
teratogen / teratogenic. You won’t find tetragen or tetragenic. Given
the OED’s encyclopedic nature, I tend to follow its lead in terms of
which terms are correct; they do a very good job of keeping up with
technical terminology and this is by no means a new term.
But perhaps we’re seeing the emergence of a modern variant to the
term… who knows?
I’m just a bit of a stickler for using the correct terminology
especially in medical/scientific areas; there’s just too much of a
chance of someone making a serious mistake by looking something up
using the wrong term and thinking that something’s harmless (or vice
versa) if they don’t find a mention of it being “tetragenic.” Sorry
if that comes off as being pedantic; certainly don’t mean for it to.
Karen Goeller
No Limitations Designs
Hand-made, one-of-a-kind jewelry www.nolimitations.com
Keep in mind that dryer vent hose (the white plastic kind) is not
only meltable, but quite flammable (can you say WHOOSH!). I have a
similar setup to yours and switched to the metal dryer hose a few
years ago. Still rips periodically, but you can use a bit of aluminum
tape to seal it back and you don’t have to worry with melting or
flaming.
I really like the flexibility of moving the ventilation to exactly
the right place for best effectiveness.
Enjoy!
Karen Goeller
No Limitations Designs
Hand-made, one-of-a-kind jewelry www.nolimitations.com
You can do it without a huge expensive exhaust system if there is an
accessible window in your studio. Purchase and mount a good exhaust
fan in that window (pointing outward). They are measured in CFM
(cubic feet per minute) of air exchange, so the higher numbers are
the best. You can get a decent one at home supply stores,
woodworking stores, etc. If possible, get one that has a fitting for
a dryer or range hood vent hose. If not, then simply build one from
sheet aluminum or some other non-permeable material.
Attach metal dryer vent hose (not plastic - it’s quite flammable) to
the exhaust fan and build a little “scoop” intake for the other end
of it.
When you are soldering or doing “fumey” work, bring the intake right
up to the area that you’re working so that it pulls out the nasty
stuff (make sure it’s positioned to pull it away from your face).
All told, I think my setup may have cost about $30 and it’s still
going strong 7 years after I put it in.
Hope this helps!
Karen Goeller
No Limitations Designs
Hand-made, one-of-a-kind jewelry www.nolimitations.com
I'm now hiding behind the sofa for fear of the lambasting I may
get when I ask exactly what you mean by ventilation. Are we talking
about huge, expensive exhaust systems or opening the studio
window?
Opening the window is better than nothing. There are two ways to
ventilate. One is a general dilution approach where you just make
sure that you have new fresh air entering the workspace so that the
bad stuff doesn’t get concentrated. The other way is more local to
the source of the fumes or dust, like a fume hood or exit fan over
the soldering area. The hood, with a fan, sucks the air and fumes out
and away from you. Think of it as flow. If your fumes are really bad,
just opening a window can actually blow the fumes in your face, so if
you work in front of the window, arrange things so that the air is
flowing out rather than in your face.
My own soldering area has a wall fan blowing out and the area is
contained in a sort of hood arrangement. I want to set up something
new for my helpers in another area. This will need to have some duct
work since the room has no outside walls. I am definitely not an
expert for all I have to say about it. I don’t want to set up
something so powerful that it sucks all the heat out of my already
frigid building, so how much is enough? If anyone has any sources on
what is needed as far as fair flow or turnover, I would be very glad
to know about it.
What level of "ventilation" are we talking about being necessary
when burning boric acid in alcohol. It's the only flux I use.
You are missing the other part of the equation… how often do or do
it and do you plan to do it for the rest of your life, or for 6
months or or or
You have a chemistry background… If I tell you to put your hand in
a vinegar pickle, or in glacial acetic acid… Well in both cases it’s
the same acid, but the concentration is different. Then there is
duration, I expect vinegar for 12 hours would do some damage, while a
quick dip in and out produces none.
The ventilation needs say for someone who solders 7 hours a day o a
production line would be much more stringent than for someone doing
it for 1/2 hour a week.
That is why companies pay safety engineers big dollars to interpret
the MSDS and apply it to their factories.
Unfortunately in the US the rats (Lawyers) have made so much money
out of workplace environment lawsuits that what is required to keep
the rats off your back is landed to all out of proportion to the
risk. Some companies actually go so far as to produce 2 different
recommendations, one for the US and one for Canada here in North
America, and the difference is incredible is some cases, when
questioned they reply in the US we have to play CYA, elsewhere they
can give realistic risk assessments
Just my two cents.
Kay
PS for non English speakers CYA is slang for cover you rear end…
That sounds like a good system M'lou. I need to look at all the
possibilities before knocking holes in my house walls, but it's
certainly an option.
We just drilled, in a location between the studs, and inserted a PVC
plastic plumbing pipe through the wall. We added an elbow joint
pointed downwards to shed rain on the outside. I also jammed a bit
of screen into this to keep insects or squirrels out. Quite simple to
do.
Keep in mind that dryer vent hose (the white plastic kind) is not
only meltable, but quite flammable
Thanks for mentioning that, Karen. I merely melted it before I made
the metal scoop end. I have enough metal on the end now for ME to
keep the flame away from the hose, but if I had a student in to try
some soldering, I can see how it might be a problem! Every once in a
while, new solderers just forget where that torch is pointed while
they try to move or adjust or pick up something. When I was
beginning, I regularly singed small pieces of paper patterns I had
on the bench top. Now I probably would not do so, but I do generally
move easily flammable stuff away anyhow.
I’ll put the metallic type hose on my shopping list.