Opportunities for design and manufacturing Jewellers?

Jewelry Discussion
21 
He is a German trained goldsmith which means there is very little
he can't do.

Not to denigrate jewelers that trained in Germany, but I really
can’t stand still for this statement.

That doesn’t really ring true in my experience. As in the USA or any
other country, Germany has trained “Master Jewelers” and other
“Master Jewelers”. I have met both kinds.

I may just be jealous, because after thirty seven years on the bench
I still have room in my skull to learn new skills. I pick up quite a
few tidbits right here on Orchid.

BDH
Bruce Holmgrain
JACMBJ

22

I am now teaching at the Fashion Institute in Los Angeles. They have
set up a jewelry program offering a BA, AA or PD in jewelry. They
built the classroom in the heart of the LA jewelry district. They
make sure that the student has a part-time job with jeweler or an
internship when they are 3/4 through the 2 year program. They
carefully monitor the student to make sure they are not being
exploited. We just graduated our first group of students and they
all had jobs.

23

Thanks to everybody responding, but here is the thorny issue. How do
you prove to IRS, in case of an audit, that you are not trying to
avoid paying taxes? How do you protect yourself from possibility that
person who would came in as an unpaid apprentice, after 6 month turns
around and asks for the backpay?. If that were to happen, in the
Court of Law, you do not have a leg to stand on. There are other
issues as well. College internship programs are different animal.
These programs are only lasts few weeks, and person technically is a
student. Besides colleges supervise these programs, so there is a
legal framework underlying the arrangements. This is a different
situation. A person, who is not a college student, is going to work
in your shop, and potentially produce something of value without
been getting paid for it. It is difficult for me to see, how it can
be legal.

Leonid Surpin

24

if you are not an incorporated business you are a hobbyist and
therefore do not have to claim monies from repairs, work or other
activities in your studio up to about $2500.00 a year in the USA.If
you teach classes but don’t charge a fee- yet accept donations and
students buy supplies from you, still you are free of a tax burden
because you are technichally not a school.Iif you accept
apprentices,journeyman in trades school related programmes or VR
students into tutilage you should incorporate as an LLC, or at least
use your soc. sec # as an EIN and pay the taxes on the hours you
teach, not time spent pursuing your hobby in your studio. All legal
and by the book for US law related to distinguishing between
hobbyists and jewelers- and if you are a business entity then you,
by incorporating as an LLC pay yourself from fees collected or monies
earned in your craft.Sole proprietorships are more tricky in that
quarterly taxes are necessary and if you do not make a living at it
then if you go into debt you are personally responsible.My design
group is set up as an LLC with a 501(c)3 compnent for education so
that we don’t profit from the students fees and if any get stipends
from a university or Voc.rehab they are paid by another corporate
entity but able to be administered by us, which we can collect a fee
for that service ( its all in how one writes the grant proposal)
that is not taxable and gos to administrational expenses with a small
percentage for capital improvements like new equipment, etc…

I missed the beginning of this thread but hope this explains it to
some degree- a hobbyistcan operate in a brick and mortar building
which is then insured on homeowners policies as opposed to the
security required to be incorporated as a working jeweler or jewelry
store…in some states as much as 6 types of security systems are to
be in place before one can be lissted as a jeweler/jewellery store-
that is why the insurance is so high and most call themselves gift
shops thus bypassing the jewelry store/gallery branding and
associated business costs…rer

25

It’ not easy and it never will be easy as far as I can give my
opinion.

The person who wants to learn making jewelry, whould like to get
payed for his labor. It might not be from te beginning but after a
while and after collecting experience he will look into getting
something in return. Nothing wrong with that, is it?

The experienced one who’s giving al the info, tools and his time
whould like to get payed for his part, which is completely
understandable and fair aswell. When this man or woman runs a shop,
bills need to be payed. Having someone running in his shop with a
low knowledge (please don’t take me wrong on this expresion) and
which need to be educated from the beginning is a not a productive
worker.

Nowerday’s, every day needs to be a productive one which is a must
if you run a shop. Time for free education is not possible anymore or
very hard to accomplisch. To me its a give and take situation. Both
parts need to be aware that almost nothing is for free anymore.
Honnesty is more then ever a very very serious fact. Staying focused
to what is needed by the shop. The student must know that the
opportunity’s are getting smaller due to the economy of today.

In one situation the agreements could be 100 percent legal for both
parts, however, the two parts can not work together after an amount
of time due to wrong understandings, working conditions, honnesty
affairs or other issue’s.

From the view of the law, a situation could be completly wrong but
both people are understanding eachother perfectly, the working
environment could be excellent and both parts are an add up for the
business.

Which situation whould you chose?

If you like to learn making jewelry based on craftmanship, then you
have to work for it and give the best you have! Having a job doesn’t
mean that you can keep it!

If you like to have a student then consider the costs, time and stay
fair. Nobody starts under perfect conditions and nobody knows
everything from the first day on.

I do not know the law in other country’s. I do know how to stay fair
against the law and that keeps me out of trouble and still does!

Keep on going and enjoy.
Pedro

26 
How do you protect yourself from possibility that person who would
came in as an unpaid apprentice, after 6 month turns around and asks
for the backpay?

You of course have a signed contract stating what the internship
covers: what benefits you will provide the intern, and in return
what you expect from them. This includes any payments, benefits
(travel, etc.), whatever. Spell it all out upfront so everyone knows
ahead of time exactly what to expect. This protects the intern from
being ripped off, and the business providing the internship from
being ripped off. Better for everyone.

If anyone is interested, I would think the local college/university
career office would have someone who specializes in setting up
internships for their students who could help walk you through the
process. If they have an art department they would probably be
delighted to get your call!

Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio

http://www.bethwicker.etsy.com
http://bethwicker.ganoksin.com/blogs/

27

Leonid

here is the thorny issue. How do you prove to IRS, in case of an
audit, that you are not trying to avoid paying taxes?

I can’t find the quote but I remember a supreme court (US) justice
saying that it was every citizens duty to not pay excess taxes.

I have spent a lot of $ over the years to legally reduce my taxes. I
think about 4 audits found only minor technical problems… no
attempts at fraud. First audit not any fun, but if they were good
they would have a real job and be earning what I paid my accountant.

I’m still ahead (and not in jail yet :-), my accountant made enough
to buy a boat or an extra bedroom for his house.

Jeff
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

28 
How do you prove to IRS, in case of an audit, that you are not
trying to avoid paying taxes?

“It is legal to avoid paying taxes - it is illegal to EVADE paying
taxes.” That prominently displayed on everything Dome Bookkeeping
system makes…And true…

29

sounds like the apprentice wpould need to pay the shop owner for the
opportunity to learn in your shop ! at that point the shop is for all
practicall purposes fullfilling the role of a legitimate educator
same as a college or the local college can offer credit for working
in your shop

goo

30

Is there no tradition of voluntary work? I’m understand your
concern, but I find it hard to imagine that it’s a real barrier.

sophie

31

Hi Leonid,

Good thread.

The fact is that you are right that “unpaid” internships that
perform work for any entity, to whom profit may arise from the work
performed, are illegal. Even though they may be technically illegal,
and as such agencies such as Craigslist prohibit the posting of
unpaid internship ads, a quick glance at Craigslist does show a few
even today for my area. So, they are still around and available in
some places, even though they may not be legal.

I think the real thorn is in for whom the work ultimately belongs,
and whether a good argument can be made for “training”. Examples of
internships that can be legal are where the job is a “dummy”, or
"training", job. For example, in a case of an internship for working
on a train the company (viz. CA state laws online…I remember
finding and reading it some years back when I designed just such a
training intern program for a national lab) had the interns driving
trains from one end of their train-yard to the other, under close
supervision. The moving of the trains was completely unnecessary for
business as usual and so was just being done to train the potential
employees (the interns). As such, no “work” was being performed, so
the internship was legal. However, if the interns had been moving the
trains as part of the regular re-positioning of the trains, even
though still performed under close supervision, the train company
would be legally required to pay the interns for the work.

A good thing to keep in mind.

Cheers!
Christopher

32

My experience over 17 years of having employees is that anyone who
says they want to be an apprentice does not last long even when paid
wages. Seems to be something about doing repetitious work and the
learning curve does not fit the fantasy of making jewelry. Has not
worked out for me once. People who want a job are the ones that stay.

Richard Hart
Jewelers Gallery
Denver, Co.

33

the major problem with unpaid or low paid workers in the US is Wage
and hour laws and liability insursance. Wage and hrlaws are federal
and may not apply but states may have their own.

jesse

34 
does not fit the fantasy of making jewelry. Has not worked out for
me once. People who want a job are the ones that stay.

Over the last 20 years of owning a bricks and mortar shop, I have
had literally dozens of people ask if I would teach them, in trade
for free work, or low pay. Of the early few that I took on as low
dollar trainees, one stole a very valuable 18k watch and then
attempted to get me to pay for injuries recieved pushing her
relatives car from the snow, and all the others simply quit because
they werent making millions in the 1st yr.

Then I started telling these prospective ‘apprentices’ to go to a
school somewhere 1st, like a short 1-3 week program, to get a basic
understanding- tools, soldering, simple repair work, etc… In other
words, spend your own money. I kept an address of a school in
Florida, on the wall near my main bench so that I always had it
handy. From the dozens I suggested this to, only one took me up on
it. At the time, 2 1/2 yrs ago, I was pretty well settled in my
routine and really didnt want anyone new, tripping me up as a newbie.

About 2 months after I told him to go to a school, I had totally
forgotten about him, yet the day I returned from an Alaskan vacation,
he walked in and told me he had gone to the school and was hoping I
might have a job for him. TOTALLY SHOCKED! Since he had just spent a
few thousand dollars (his down payment on a home)on my suggestion, I
thought I should at least give him a bench test, and told him to come
back that evening after closing for the day. That night, based on his
skills, I hired him for partime work, slightly over minimum wage.
Within 3 weeks, I had him working fulltime, and have raised his
hourly wage dramatically. If it werent for the recent economic
downturn, I would have additional pay increases in the works for this
year. Also he has since bought a very nice home, so I guess he musta
got his down payment back.

Most of this guys life he had been in construction
trades,maintenance, even earned his journeymans card as a union
electrician, but found that he simply hated his life. Now, he seems
to love every single day of his life, mostly doing a load of bench
repair work, sizing, stone setting, retipping, watch batteries, band
adjusts, a little bit of custom work, etc… Turned out to be a
‘natural’! Less than 3 yrs ago he was wielding a hammer and torch of
totally different sizes than he uses now. All he had to do was
change the size of his tools to get his life in order.LOLOL

Bottom line, alot of people wont invest in themselves, and then take
a gamble on it, only dream and then quit when the dream isnt what
they thought it was about. Find someone willing to invest in
themselves, treat them fairly, and the odds of a scenario working out
go up considerably. In addition, I found a new friend in him with a
passion for jewelry, that has revived my passion like it was 35 yrs
ago. It also helps that we both have very similar views on politics,
food, etc…

Ed

35

I might be starting quite a long discussion here but I’m highly
against working for free. I will not be grateful when someone offers
me a position with no pay. It greatly upsets me that in this industry
in the beginning so many artists are expected to work for free or for
pay so low they’ll have to live out of their car.

I majored in jewelry making at Towson University and I did have an
intership that was paid. I’ve worked in 3 jewelry stores, 2 of them
repairing jewelry and I was treated so badly in the positions. The
owners of the stores emotionally abused the employees to the point
that turnover was unbelieveably high.

I have promised myself I will never hire an assistant if I can’t pay
them well and give them health insurance. If I can’t do this then I
won’t have an assistant. Besides do you expect an employee that
you’re paying $8 or $10 an hour to stay around for long? If you
expect that you’re crazy. I will not treat others the way I do not
want to be treated. It’s that simple. I will also not perpetuate this
theory that jewelers should be paid very little.

I’ve gone through many itnerviewws, one where my looks were insulted
and I was told I would have to work for at least 5 years making no
many to become a good goldsmith. All I could think was that at $8 an
hour I’d be living out of my car.

I have not had the chance to run my jewelry business full time so
from the experience side I don’t know how that will work out I just
know I will treat others far better.

36 
Since he had just spent a few thousand dollars (his down payment on
a home) on my suggestion, I thought I should at least give him a
bench test, and told him to come back that evening after closing
for the day. That night, based on his skills, I hired him for
partime work, slightly over minimum wage. Within 3 weeks, I had him
working fulltime, and have raised his hourly wage dramatically.

So what’s the problem?

If you go back to the start of this thread, the young lady in
question has done just that: Spent a couple or 10 grand and studied
at the Revere Academy in SF. So she’s by no means a “walk in teach me
type proposition”, she should be very capable of doing all that you
described below, now yes it was mentioned that she’d like to get into
design work, but having these pieces of paper/letters behind her name
she should at least be able to get some work as a bench jeweller, and
over a year or three work her way up to doing some custom design
work, might not end up doing as much as she’d like but it should be
enough for her to be able to prove herself capable of designing great
jewellery.

The problem as I see it is that she has gone to the US to study and
the local Australian Jewellers don’t know the “value” of what she has
in her head, maybe she should look into doing the Australian
equivalent of GIA course (these are run by The Gemmological
Association of Australia) she can do the two year course in one
year, but it will set her back another $5K or so. With some local
paper to back up the US ones she should be a shoe in! BTW these
courses are done evening mostly, so she might be able to get some
work based on the “I’m doing this course, and I’d like some hands on
practice” argument.

Just something further to keep in mind.

Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
Janstrom Design.
QLD. Australia.

37 
I think the real thorn is in for whom the work ultimately belongs,
and whether a good argument can be made for "training". Examples
of internships that can be legal are where the job is a "dummy", or
"training", job

That is exactly what I was told by lawyers and that makes the whole
situation very tricky. Neither I, nor anybody else could afford to
have someone using resource of the shop without contributing to the
bottom line. So the arrangement would require not only apprentice
working for free, but also paying a very substantial sum to the shop
owner.

Leonid Surpin

38

The fact is that you are right that “unpaid” internships

This, like so many threads, has gone far beyond the original question
from Australia. I think the bottom line is pretty simple: Nobody’s
really going to have you working for free - not real work, anyway. We
had a young man come in for a time and shoot waxes and the like - he
enjoyed it, he was a relative, he thought he might like jewelry
making. But it was a few hours a week and it was menial labor. The
notion that a pro shop is going to let an inexperienced person inside
the door to work for free is a fantasy, unless you’re the boss’s son
or daughter. Yes, some are willing to work for nothing to get their
chops down, but they don’t know what they are doing, and we’re not a
school. It’s mostly just a fantasy of some who a wishful about being
jewelers. In a high-level shop such as ours, you need to know a lot
to even be entry-level - in a bread-and-butter shop you might get
something, but it’s going to be real basic work. I see it mostly as
the prevalent “I want to be a CEO” thing of recent years. First you
file 1,000 rings and solder 3,000 center heads, and then we’ll talk.

http://www.donivanandmaggiora.com

39 
You of course have a signed contract stating what the internship
covers: what benefits you will provide the intern, and in return
what you expect from them.

And here is the problem. Unless, there is a law which defines
“internship” as a legal form of conducting business, such a contract
would be legally void.

I understand about college students and operating under 501(c3)
umbrella, but if someone walks through your door and wants to be an
apprentice, none of these options are practical. So it is still
unclear to me how it can be set up with the following restrictions in
mind. Applicant for apprenticeship is not a student but simply a
someone who wants to learn, and the shop is just regular profit
making business entity.

Leonid Surpin

40 
So what's the problem?

Its just a story, nothing intended. I thought it was kind of a tale
of success for someone. But maybe a problem might be that Dad is
searching for her here on Orchid, not her search efforts.
Conversation about her future has begun here, but I have yet to see
her enter the forum. Another prob may be that there is limited demand
where/ when the search has occurred, and theres not a single problem
with her degree or skills. Another prob may be that some people do
not sell themselves well. Just suggestions.

Ed