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Mokume Torque Plates


#1

Hi all,

I have been having a devil of a time with my mokume torque plates.

I have Steve Midgett’s book and it is absolutely magnificent, BUT, I
can’t seem to get consistent results with the bolts.

Last night I made a billet and snapped two of the bolts in the
process of trying to get them undone (yes - I was using a LOT of
pressure).

I have tried coating the bolts with oil beforehand to trying to get
soot build up, but that didn’t work.

Has anyone got a nice little trick? Has anyone tried using yellow
ochre/liquid paper on the bolts themselves? For reference I am
trying to use the Bob Coogan method, he talks about loosening the
plates and having the billet slip out while still hot. It takes me
about 15 minutes to get

the bolts off!
Thanks
Cam


#2

I have never used them the way you want but I have used a number of
metal based anti sieze compounds copper based to about 1800 F .
Hot times have been extended not days or hours. There are some
nickel based ones that are rated to 2400 F. There are also some
using mica for high temperatures.

Many people sell these. Loc Tite is probably the easiest place to
find some but any of the tool supply houses should carry
somebodies. Another thing to try is using dissimilar metals for
the nuts and bolts. I have always thought invar bolts might work
better then the traditional ones. Used against steel or Stainless
Steel plates you would increase the pressure on the work as the
metal heated up. Using the anti sizes may take some
experimentation.

jesse


#3

boron nitride ceramic acts as a high temperature lubricant it is
available as either a solvent based spray or water base liquid. Or
get yourself a pneumatic impact wrench and just break the bolts if
they bind up. Or use nickel or copper based high temperature
anti-seize lubricant. Any of these will work , I have used all of
them at one time or another.

Jim Binnion

James Binnion Metal Arts
Phone (360) 756-6550
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (360) 756-2160


@James_Binnion
Member of the Better Business Bureau


#4

I also had my bolts snap when I went to take them off. Next time I
am going to try some anti seize compound. Here, read some specs.

http://www.jetlube.com/NewFiles/aseaz.html


#5

I have tried coating the bolts with oil beforehand to trying to get
soot build up, but that didn’t work.

I don’t make mokume myself so this is an unqualified stab at an
answer. There are nut-to-bolt anti-seize compounds that are used in
the auto industry that prevent a situation similar to what you
describe. They look like they might be a mixture of graphite and a
grease-like carrier. Perhaps that might provide an inexpensive,
low-tech approach. I might be way off base here too.

dennis


#6

How expensive are the bolts?

Maybe the easy way is to use boltcutters and replace the bolts for
each new batch of mokume?

Lee Einer
Dos Manos Jewelry
http://www.dosmanosjewelry.com


#7

GO TO AN AUTOMOTIVE SUPPLY HOUSE

First buy National Coarse bolts - The most common thread size.
Purchase Grade 5 ( 3 dashes on the bolt head and nut head )
Purchase washers for the nut side .
Purchase Never Seize which is a copper or gray colored
paste which is to be applied to the bolt threads, inside the nut
threads and to the washer face.

Assemble the bolts in the holes, apply the washer, and then the
nuts. Tighten everything hand tight. A vicegrip welder’s clamp will
hold everything snug until you tighten the nuts. HOLD THE BOLT HEAD
AND TIGHTEN THE NUT SIDE.

Assume that the bolts are in a pattern as shown below. Tighten the
bolts in this order. Tighten 3, 6, 5, 4, 7, 2, 8, 1 Tighten about
1/3 of a turn on each bolt. Then do it again. and again . Each in
sequence, a little at a time.

Use the proper fitting wrenches, long handle ones at that. Do not use
pliers or a crescent wrench . They will break your hand, your teeth
and certainly your heart.

1 3 5 7

2 4 6 8

What you have done is use a high pressure, high temperature
lubricant on high stregenth bolts. You have tightened the bolts,
using the proper size , long handle wrench or ratchet, evenly to the
maximum you should expect out of that size bolt.

These bolts have been overtightned a lot. Do not expect to use them
too many times. They are consumable .

These bolts are also available in a grade 8 ( 6 dashes on the bolt
and nut heads if needed). They are a little more expensive and may
not be necessary.

An automotive mechanic will explain the process if you ask what is
meant in tighten a head on an engine

ROBB.

p.s.

Never Seize will get everywhere . Wash your hands a lot. It is still
the best product available by far. A little goes a long way.


#8
 First buy National Coarse bolts - The most common thread size.
Purchase Grade 5 ( 3 dashes on the bolt head and nut head ) 

Or use any cheap bolt nut combination that will hold the plates
together during heating of Mokume billet. Cut the bolts with a bolt
cutter.


#9

I agree with Robert. Sadly, sometimes the use of anti-seize compound
will still not allow the nut to release. In those instances think of
the materials used to hold the plates together as an expendable item.
Another post already advised the use of a powered torque driver.
Think of the time and effort you have spent to make your product,
then weigh that against the few pennies spent for nuts and bolts. If
things won’t come loose, then use brute force and break the
fasteners.

Hope this helps.
Respectfully,
J. Russell


#10
    Purchase Grade 5 ( 3 dashes on the bolt head and nut head )
Purchase washers for the nut side . Purchase Never Seize which is a
copper or gray colored 

Snip

    These bolts are also available in a grade 8 ( 6 dashes on the
bolt and nut heads if needed). They are a little more expensive and
may not be necessary. 

Grade 8 bolts are a waste of money. Grade 5 do. As soon as you have
heated the torque plates/bolts over about 700 degrees F there will
be absolutely no difference between the grade 5 and grade 8 as the
grade 8 is basically a heat treated grade 5 and you will have
tempered it to the point that it is now no harder than the grade 5.
Washers are not really necessary if you will just put a bit of the
anti seize between the nut and the torque plate it will provide
the effect of reducing the friction between the nut and torque plate
and the plate itself acts to spread the force. These bolts are
thrown away after one use. They will stretch so much that the
threads will no longer allow the nut to run freely and they are too
cheap to risk ruining your long labor of preparing your billet for a
couple of dollars worth of bolts. – Jim Binnion

James Binnion Metal Arts
Phone (360) 756-6550
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (360) 756-2160


@James_Binnion
Member of the Better Business Bureau


#11

During some recent mokume tests I used stainless bolts, I have been
able to use them more than four times. I used a coating of kiln
shelf wash on the bolts. The bolts seem to be in good shape visually
and they will still hold the plates.

I used an electric kiln and tool wrap.
James


#12
During some recent mokume tests I used stainless bolts, I have been
able to use them more than four times.  I used a coating of kiln
shelf wash on the bolts. The bolts seem to be in good shape visually
and they will still hold the plates.

While stainless bolts will last a long time they have a major
drawback. Their thermal expansion is greater than almost all the
metals you would want to laminate. So when you heat them up they
actually reduce the pressure on the laminate, not a good thing.
Stick to plain old grade 5’s or look to the more exotic nickle super
alloys but stay away from stainless bolts.

Jim Binnion

James Binnion Metal Arts
Phone (360) 756-6550
Toll Free (877) 408 7287
Fax (360) 756-2160


@James_Binnion
Member of the Better Business Bureau


#13

Thanks to all who replied!

By the sounds of it, it is pretty much what I had concluded. I could
spend some money good lubricants etc, but the bolts will stretch
regardless. Thus, cutting my losses and using a bolt-cutter might be
the best way.

Thanks again
Cam


#14

Jim, When we bounced emails back and forth a few months ago I had
asked about stainless bolts and plates. I purchased grade fives but
had a number of stainless. In a pinch I used the stainless bolts with
cold rolled steel. I also tried it with stainless plates. All of my
billets using sterling, fine, and nickle silver worked great. We
tried copper, brass, shibuichi and sterling. It worked great. We also
used steel, 18k, shibuichi it worked great. All of this was done in
an electric kiln with tool wrap. Charcoal in all except the steel,
18k, shibuichi. The billets worked very well and produced good rod
stock. We must have been really lucky using the stainless. We used a
20 ton press to compress the stacks then tightened the bolts as much
as possible.

The stainless bolts worked quite a few times and still look good, I
don’t understand this given the thermal expansions. But we are now
taking yur advice and using #5 bolts and stainless plates.

We need more work on patterning but we have plenty of billets to work
with. Thank You!!

James McMurray