Keeping trade secrets

Jewelry Discussion
41

Marta, and all on Orchid

My only reply to this question, lays with the setter or fabricator.
If he knows how long to set a stone round, Oval or Pear shape. As
long as it’s done right and with greatest of quality, who really
cares? Some settings do take some time longer in making or setting.
Baring this, a full bezel setting with a 5.25 carat Pear Shape
Emerald worth $7,500+ who cares how long. Or is it a simple full
bezel mounting, with no problems to worry about, show me a design or
picture than I, or we, can help you. There is no known ‘rule’ to work
with.

Time requirements is “for the birds” as far as I’m concerned, does
it really matter if it takes 20 minutes, or 22.5 minutes? Speed does
come with being proficiency, to a limit though. My old adage. “Speed,
Quality, Cost; pick two!”…

Gerry Lewy!

42

Marta,

I don’t think there is a jewelers’ guideline for “time to complete a
procedure.” At least I have never seen a jewelry book that compares
to the “auto-body repair manual” which tells a body-shop manager how
many minutes is considered standard labor practice to replace a
Chevy Blazer left front fender. The closest jewelers’ book to that,
to my knowledge, is “Geller’s Blue Book to Jewelry Repair & Design.”
While the book does not give actual times to complete the various
projects, it does give you the prices that should be charged for each
procedure. By backing out for materials’ cost and doing a bit of
math, you can get a general idea as to the amount of time it should
take a competent individual to complete a given task. I suspect
David Geller (a regular contributor to Orchid) would be more than
glad to supply you with the break down as to how you could work out
approximate times by using one of his books.

Having said all that, for jewelry repair, as a one-man-band
pawnbroker/bench-jeweler, in a VERY rural area, I shoot for $1/minute
($60/hr). I don’t really care how fast I “should be.” I care more
about how fast I am, and try to set my prices accordingly. By using
the latest Geller book as a general guideline and as a sales/pricing
tool (in my area, with my customer base, Geller’s 4.0 book always
makes my prices look palatable to my customers!) I am always striving
to exceed my goal of $1/minute. Having, overall, a relatively low
volume of repairs, makes it virtually impossible for me to use an
assembly line approach to repair work. Therefore, my times for a
given procedure are higher than someone in a trade shop who can size
20 rings at one time, then move on to the 17 chain repairs that are
in the next set of envelopes.

I realize that I am better at some procedures than others, and some
days I am simply better at ANY procedure than I am on other days…
So, sometimes when life is good and the solder flows by waving the
torch at it, I make better than the $1/minute, and sometimes when I
am having a “bad” day its the other way around. Using the Geller
book helps me to even out the billing so I can average where I want
to be, especially on those procedures that I rarely do.

Once I created my shop’s price list, I could then look at it and
say; Ladies Yellow Gold Ring Downsize <3mm wide…$24 = 24 minutes…
or less (on average). Keep in mind, your time will vary considerably
depending on: a.) the material that you are working on/with (silver,
yellow gold, white gold, platinum, etc.) and b.) your individual
experience with that particular material. Then factor in variables
such as c.) protecting fragile stones and/or d.) protecting
previous/multiple solders and you can see why it is difficult to
arrive at a hard and fast guideline for jewelers’ procedural times.

In my opinion (which is worth exactly what you paid for it!): If you
are billing less $1/minute for your time, you need to either bill
more, or speed up. If you cannot bill more, nor speed up, then the
handwriting is on the wall… I am striving daily to be faster AND
better.

Sorry to be so wordy while not answering your question… :wink:

Steve (whose motto is: Faster is ALWAYS better; until it causes
quality to dip below top notch!) Stempinski

Steve’s Place
Jewelry Repair
While-U-Watch
Madison, GA

43

Hi Gerry,

I understand what you are talking about and agree with you. The
reason I ask is when I have a job that I am charging by the hour
for, I want to be in line with what is expected because I tend to
take longer and don’t feel comfortable charging a gazzillion dollars
for something that I should be faster on (and will be as I improve!)

Thanks, Marta

44

Marta and all !

when I have a job that I am charging by the hour for, I want to be
in line with what is expected because I tend to take longer and
don't feel comfortable charging a gazzillion dollars for something
that I should be faster on (and will be as I improve!)

If I am asked for my fee for setting, I figure also at a price for
my labour based upon my setting time. If I am below a reasonable
rate, something is wrong, or the setting job is too lengthy. Then I
must charge accordingly. If the client doesn’t like my fee, I walk
away and I’m not hurt. BUT, my skill level warrants my higher setting
fee, plain and simple, no love lost!..:>)

One fellow wanted some setting prices for 54, half-bezel settings on
a necklace,…“too much money”, again his loss! He was making
thousands of $$$ but couldn’t afford to have it done properly. It
would have taken me about 6 hours++ in total setting time.

Gerry!

45

This thread has wandered off into the free sharing of ALL
knowledge… when IS it justified to charge for it? In the form of
workshops, lectures, articles, or books? When IS it justified to keep
it to yourself?

In my particular case, I am now disabled. I have 37 years worth of
experience as a trade shop, and contract hand engraver. I can no
longer make a comfortable living at the bench. I’ve gotta eat and
support my family… If I give away everything I’ve learned - and it
seems that some people on this forum seem to feel that I should,
(from some comments I’ve read) how do I continue to make a living?

Here’s a quote off of another forum.

“I’m really looking forward to all the free learning I can get off
this site!”

Shortly after that post was made, all of the really good information
dried up. The pros on that site began to do their sharing off the
forum amongst themselves - privately. Only “common knowledge” is
shared on that forum these days.

There are tricks and techniques that I have learned at considerable
expense to myself, in both time used in experimentation and materials
consumed in the learning of them. From what some are saying here, I
should just give this away to anyone who asks? Why?

Also from some of the comments made in this thread - it is mercenary
to profit from experience… and those who keep their knowledge
(trade secrets) to themselves or sell it, are selfish scum?

Look back at my posts over the years, I think I share as much as
most on this forum…

Brian P. Marshall

46

Mr. Marshall,

You most certainly have shared generously with us the knowledge that
you can communicate in a posting. You are eminently justified in
holding paid workshops, because what you have to offer is well
beyond what anyone could type into an email message. The internet has
not eliminated the need for qualified, experienced teachers. Each
knowledgeable person will strike his own balance between helping and
sharing with others vs. giving away the farm. Your knowledgeable and
helpful postings have established your credibility in my mind, and I
personally would like to take an engraving class from you, this year
if possible. I check occasionally to see if you have a website with
a class schedule up yet (hint, hint!).

Respectfully,

Laurie Cavanaugh
Elegant Metal

47

Hi Brian;

From what some are saying here, I should just give this information
away to anyone who asks? Why?

My first input on this thread was deliberately facetious. But your
post begs me to answer in a more sincere manner. Fact is, you are
teaching professionally. That has become your craft, or art, if you
please. Just this evening I was speaking with a friend, a jeweler,
and I recommended he try to get out to your school and take a class.
You and I have never met, and I’ve never studied with you, but I
sense the breadth of your knowledge from your posts, emails, and the
regard others have for you. And I suspect what you have to offer has
value the greatly exceeds the tuition. So suppose we look at it this
way.

I don’t mind helping someone out with advice, a tip or a source. If
I sense they are working at learning, a little advice here and there
is just courtesy. Questions like, “what’s the difference between a
high speed steel graver and a regular one?” tell me they’ve been
trying to answer some of their own questions already. But if they
want to know how to sharpen a graver, I’ll suggest a book or a class
at Stockton Jewelry Arts. Gerry Lewy will give that away,
and that’s his prerogative. If they’re new, and ask a question like
“how do I cast?” or “how do I quite my day job and make a living as a
jeweler?” I either clam up, or tell them “take a class at your local
community college and get your feet wet first”. Most advice I would
give a newcomer would be of little use to them for years. Even buying
supplies is not a simple thing. You have to know what you need, how
you’ll use it, what quality is acceptable, etc.

I had a local guy call me to ask what solder and flux to use to
repair eyeglass frames. I hesitated, then went ahead and told him. If
he doesn’t even know what solder and flux to use, what’s the
likelihood he’ll be able to fix eyeglass frames? Probably going to
try it with a hardware store propane torch. He screwed up a few
pairs, then decided to send all future repairs to me.

What I will never give away is the way that I’ve integrated years of
study and practice to be able to make a fairly good piece of jewelry.
It’s simply not something that can be handed over in a nutshell, so
to speak. I’d have to subject them to the whole body of my knowledge
in the proper format, namely, they’d have to sit and endure my
overbearing presence until they were pliant enough for me to mold
them into a facsimile of the monster I’ve become. (Think of that
movie, Interview with the Vampire or whatever it was called). Many
have seemed willing, but I’m certain they couldn’t afford it, even if
I knew what to charge, nor would their families tolerate them
volunteering themselves to such abuse. Seriously, what you do,
Brian, as a teacher, is a skill in itself, one that I don’t know if I
possess, so of course, you can’t give that away. It would be exactly
as if I did free diamond setting or wax carving.

David L. Huffman

48

Hi Brian:

This thread has wandered off into the free sharing of ALL
knowledge... when IS it justified to charge for it? In the form of
workshops, lectures, articles, or books? When IS it justified to
keep it to yourself?

I have a design that I have been marketing in my area for a year
now. I’m hoping to produce it for a large retail show in the Fall(as
long as the jury accepts me). I have recently been asked to teach
beading at the local art center (also sponsors the show I am hoping
to get into). I am not teaching this bracelet to my students until I
make some money from selling it. When sales drop off on it or I come
up with things that sell equally well, then i will teach it…and I
don’t feel bad about it one bit. It is a personal decision.

There are those on the list who primarily teach. I primarily sell. I
teach in addition to selling. I love the fact that there are those
whose mission it is to share Thank goodness they exist,
but I am not at that point in my life.

Some may say you are not justified in keeping things to yourself
ever, but, I feel, no matter what opinion you have, there are always
going to be those who disagree with you. Some may disagree with me,
but that doesn’t bother me at all. I do what I feel is right.

Best Regards,
Kim Starbard
Cove Beads

49

Dear Brian,

I think most people respect the time and materials that go into
learning a skill, otherwise there wouldn’t be the support for
workshops that are offered over this forum. I think most folks are
willing to pay to buy a video or book or to attend a workshop,
because I’ve seen several requests by newbies for workshops or
classes offered by more experienced jewelers. Of course, I don’t
speak for everybody.

I’m sorry to hear you’ve been disabled. Perhaps it is possible to
make a video or design a class to teach your skill to paying
students?

Maybe there is some way you could pass on your knowledge and still
make a living.

Personally, I would be willing to give my eye teeth for a good
engraving video -have been trying to teach myself, but so far have
have only perfected gouges and random scratching.

Good luck,
Susannah Page-Garcia

50

I too, have been following this discussion of trade secrets, and
have my own take on this.

After working in this trade for over 30 years, I would have to say
that trying to make a living making jewelry and selling it, is a
difficult way to make a living, and getting harder everyday.

I have always enjoyed making jewelry of my own design, and custom
orders for others, but I can’t say that my original work ever sold
like “hotcakes” in the galleries that used to carry my work. I
couldn’t depend on consignment sales for my living, and the one ACC
Fair I was juried into was only a minor financial success, and one
that kept me working like a one-man factory for 2 months after the
fair to produce all my orders. I found I don’t like being a factory.
I’m not fond of marketing my work, either.

Teaching, I found, gave me a gratification that was even more
satisfying than having work in a juried show. Having someone make
their first piece of jewelry, and have it come out well-made is
something I can really get proud about. I can’t say it pays that
well, but it is satisfying in a way that still keeps me teaching
after all these years. Yes, I show students my original work in my
classes, but it is very rare that someone wants to duplicate any of
my designs, and I would not be comfortable with them doing that, in
any event. Now, I have had students want to copy an existing piece of
jewelry, which I don’t have the same problem with, because I feel
they are not marketing that design, only keeping it for themselves,
which is the important distinction for me. I always tell them that
they can improve on that design, change it in some way, and make it
an original, which most often they will do. In that way, they then
feel that they have made their own design, even though they started
with another design they had originally intended to copy.

I’m usually quite forthcoming to students about giving out any and
all “secrets” I have picked up in years of working behind the bench.
I am most comfortable helping students make jewelry for themselves,
friends, or family, but I’ve always felt uncomfortable about the
person who wants my advice about making a living as a jeweler. All
the experiences I’ve gone through to get the knowledge I have today
play back like an old movie, and I realize that they will have to
learn so much about so many different things to be successful at
being a full-time jeweler. I hardly know where to start with my own
limited advice.

Jay Whaley

51

Nicely said, David L. Huffman. Your prose is straightforeward and
well worded. I think you are a wordsmith as well as a goldsmith!!

Judy in Kansas

52

To Laurie Cavanaugh - what you hinted for is almost ready… here’s
the prototype my wife Melanie has put together so far.

Stockton Jewelry Arts School
http://studentpages.scad.edu/~mmarsh23/sjas/

There are a lot of details to be corrected, to be added,
images, and links yet - but it is getting there, albeit slowly… and
I’m getting help from at least one Orchid member.

To David Huffman - thanks for the kind words. My own post was not
made “tongue in cheek,” it was more like biting my tongue, or
gritting my teeth…

Some rambling observations:

My “teaching skills” - if I truly have any? - come from the
circumstances I’ve found myself in. You do what you gotta do with
whatever you got. Or whatever you got left… You adapt or you
starve. I’ve learned more in the 8 or 10 years I’ve been teaching
than I did in the previous 25 years! And yes, I’m well aware that I
am still more than a little rough around the edges… I have
discovered along the way that teaching can be almost as much fun as
the work I used to be able to do. (A newspaper article once described
me as a guy who made his living playing:)

A hefty chunk of any teaching abilities I have acquired, and the
contacts from which a lot of my knowledge has grown, have come from
10 years on Orchid. I have found some pretty incredible people
through this forum. Anne Hollerbach, Cynthia Eid, Phil Poirier, Lee
Marshall, Trish McAleer, James Binnion, Peter Rowe, Daniel Grandi,
Kate Wolf, Lee Epperson, Valentin Yotkov, John Flynn, Hanuman, Ton,
and Charles Lewton-Brain are a few of those that I have been lucky
enough to meet personally.

I sought out and finally met Steve Lindsay because of a post on this
forum 6 or 7 years ago, by Ricky Low. The friendship that has grown
between us in these years is one of the most valuable experiences of
my life. (In fact it may have been responsible for saving my life…
but that’s another story:)

On spending time participating in forums… This is a luxury for me,
not something I can afford to do very often. Crafting a reply,
offering an opinion or advice takes time - a lot of time, and
sometimes you’ll find that it seems not to have been worth the
effort - when it gets misinterpreted or causes conflicts/dissension.
But if you take something from a forum, and I definitely do - I
firmly believe that you gotta give something back.

By all means get as much “free” as you can off of forums
and the Internet - but keep in mind that learning from ONLY these
sources, while it may seem “economical,” is not a fast process…
Once you have collected all this you still have to put in
the TIME. Thousands of hours of time/practice/repetition. It can take
you years to get to the same level you can achieve with a couple of
intensive, “hands on,” workshops. (Yeah, one of those where they
charge you real money for “trade secrets”!:slight_smile: It all comes down to how
much you value your time.

Knowing how something is done and being able to do it yourself -
competently and quickly is not the same thing.

By the way, this little post took over an hour to write - and
rewrite - and rewrite again…

TANSTAAFL - “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch” - Robert
Heinlein.

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

53

The term “trade secrets” brings to mind smokey rooms, cabals, secret
societies, etc. An example of a trade secret might properly be this:
a woman in the northwestern US developed a formulation for a
marvelous pitch to replace “burgundy” pitch. It’s a wonderful
product. She won’t reveal her formula; she wants to be rewarded for
her research and labors. Who could find fault with that.

What’s been the subject of this thread on this forum might be more
to the point called trade techniques. Things that people have
discovered in their work experience, those “aha” moments, ways to do
something that are much better than what has been accepted as SOP.
What we do is a “trade” or a craft. It’s hand work even though we
also use machines. The distinction is, I think, that these
professions are passed from master to apprentice. The reason being,
you have to be there in person.

There is no substitute for being trained by someone in person. You
have to see it; reading about it is not the equivalent. Videos are
secondary even as good as Blaine Lewis’ are. I.e.; the way one holds
a tool while doing a certain procedure is critical. Brian Marshall’s
demo of how to properly sharpen a graver is almost worth the “price
of admission” as they say. You can read about this but it’s not even
close.

Reading posts on Orchid leads me to believe a number of people think
they can learn goldsmithing, silversmithing here. I don’t think so.
What we can learn are “tricks”; I would prefer the term “special
techniques”. In order to fully profit from this sharing, one must
bring a certain amount of backround experience. here are marvelous
people with much expertise available on this forum. One has to be
ready for the “knowledge” to fully realize what is being shared by
people with this expertise.

I know it costs to go to school; sometimes there’s money sometimes
not. But let’s be clear, there’s no substitute. If your intention is
to make this your life’s work, do it. Take as many classes as you’re
able to afford; borrow if necessary. And you’re likely to learn as
much from your fellow participants in these situations as from the
teacher.

If you’re doing metal work, enameling, etc. for your own pleasure,
to make gifts for your friends it’s a different thing.

Take a class.

Kevin Kelly

54

I think you might be missing the real reason many dealers will
refuse to give sources. This includes a huge effort by show
organizers. The margins on jewelry is so hi that they dont want
anybody to know the markups. You go to any mall and the jewelry
stores all have a sale all the time. 30% off would be small and you
often see 70% off and occasionally 90% off. This is probably illegal
as it is falsely advertising a sale but it is common practise in
jewelry stores.

I often get people asking me where to get things set or finished -
usually Pearls as I sell so many south sea pearls particularly on
ebay (See my ebay id <snip - Sorry No Ebay links on Orchid> if
interested in seeing what I sell). All one has to do is look in a
phone book for the answer but most wont deal with the public. When I
lived in Toronto almost nobody wanted to deal with me because I never
had a storefront (Although I have sold well over a million dollars of
jewelry retlated items on the internet over the past couple years
and almost never buy jewelry for myself - probably sold much more
than that actually). However, JA International in New York wont let
me into their shows. A year or so ago I sent in a application for pre
registration (Actually an invite from one of my thailand suppliers
who was exhibiting there) and included $25,000 or $30,000 or so of
copies of invoices from suppliers who were also exhibiters there at
the show that I wanted to go to. But nope, JA considers me
insignificant and wont let me in. In Tucson it is easy to get in to
the wholesale shows as you just have to officially register a
company name and make business cards (Somethat in Canada at least can
be done for under $100) but the line ups at the shows as they check
is a bit of a pain.

However, in the Asian shows they are not so paranoid and the chinese
shows even offers me free hotel rooms and tours of factories and
things. Obviously this is a wholesale version of the tourist tours
and is probably paid for by the factories wanting to show you what
they sell but even so is a hell of a lot better than the treatment
that I get from JA who considers me an outcast and just somebody who
their exhibiters can make money of as a retail customer. But the
asian show organizers think that since you travel half way around the
world more than once a year to go to a jewelry show that maybe it
might be smart to try and put a little more effort into getting my
business. Even if they did let me in JA would still just consider me
somebody to charge $200 a night for an hotel room to (See their
website for so called hotel deals) - and certainly not somebody to
pay for hotel rooms for to get you into their dealer showrooms and
try and get more business out of me like the aisans. There might be a
reason why the dealers I know have been complaining about poor sales
at the american shows the last few years and the asian shows keep
bursting at the seems with wholesale customers (Although draconian
new immigration rules in the United States helps keep them away to).
I havent been invited to the Hong Kong Pearl auctions that coinside
with the shows yet so I am not officially “in” on the asian jewelry
scene but they at least try and make my internet business feel
welcome while american show organizers like JA has their head in the
sand and tries to believe that the internet is not a factor in the
jewelry industry (Or at least not welcoming the internet dealers to
visit their shows anyway). I also had this same problem at the
Canadian shows.

I have been buying more and more of my material from my asian
suppliers the past few years and I only have one regular supplier in
the USA anymore and even that is not large. I dont have anything
against american suppliers of course. Almost everything I buy or sell
is shipped internationally so country of origin is not important to
me. But BKK in Bangkok and CMP in Hong Kong is doing a much better
job of arranging for their exhibiters to supply my internet business
than JA. In fact JA specifically dont want their exhibiters to supply
me.

If the public knew the price difference between what is retailed in
the mall and what the wholesale price of things were there would be a
lot more bargaining and lower prices. Unfortunately the internet
hasnt lowered prices of jewelry because there are so many scams going
on. But thats the big reason people want to keep trade secrets.
Retail stores and people who mak emoney supplying them worry about
survival - or, even worse, having to offer markups like other stores
in the mall do.

Sincerely
DEAN
www.neptune-poseidon.com

55

I love being able to ask questions of folks here on Orchid. And the
generous people who share their “Trade Secrets” are greatly
appreciated. To my way of thinking, that is what this post is all
about. I am always glad to share any “Trade Secrets” I have with
anyone who needs them. Quite simply, you get out of life what you
give. If your not on this post to share, why are you here? I don’t
get

56

As a teacher and a metalsmith who makes his living at the craft, I
find some people’s expectation of an instructor’s responsibility a
bit strange. Someone had inferred-- I’m not sure who-- that it was a
teacher’s responsibility to impart all the knowledge that they had,
to hold nothing back.

I teach many workshops through out the course of a year. One of the
most popular is “Studio Tricks and Tips”. I have been teaching this
workshop in both a 2 day demo only format and a weeklong class since
1994. I give out a lot of and I have heard that I have a
reputation for being very free with what I share.

That being said, there are several techniques–trade secrets-- that
I have come across or developed over the years that I simply won’t
share. They usually are intrinsic to a certain design or are a key
element to a series of pieces that I am currently working with and
that are important to generating income.

I used to teach these techniques, assuming that students would never
directly copy what I was doing or adopt a technique (one that might
be central to my work) as the center piece of their work. Some
students simply didn’t see it that way, though, and I came to
understand that I should never offer any technique upon which I had
built a trademark body of work and staked a large part of my
financial security.

There are only a few instances when I find myself in this situation
and these few techniques are most often quite simple and could be
puzzled out by most inquisitive students. I tell them this and take
that opportunity to have a brief discussion about “borrowing” too
heavily from another artist, craftsperson or maker’s work.

To my eyes, teaching tricks rather than specific techniques such as
granulation, photo etching, etc. is truly exciting. Learning
shortcuts and becoming more efficient and confident in the everyday
tasks in the studio or shop, becoming more intimate with the basic
tools on the bench and pressing their capabilities has always been
what I’ve found to be, perhaps, most valuable. I feel that this is
giving students the best tools they could have top further explore
things on their own…

I really bristle at any implication that it is somehow wrong for a
teacher not to cough up every last bit of or to charge a
fee to teach a class or workshop. Teaching is a skill. Effectively
teaching the knowledge that you have spent years accumulating is a
marketable skill. And so it should be.

Respectfully, Andy Cooperman

57

Hey all,

I just thought I’d throw in my two cents. I’m an art student, and a
rather young one at that (20), I’ve been doing jewelry for about a
year now, and I feel like a kid let loose in a candy store. I can’t
get enough, I want to know every technique in the book, every
shortcut, every possible thing I could make in metal. I also spend a
great deal of time on the internet, not only looking up inspiration
from the world around me (be it natural or urban) I also look up what
metal work other people are doing.

I went on a field trip to the Philadelphia Craft show with my
school’s Metals and Jewelry Club this winter, (it was my first time
going to a show with someone to guide me through it) and my first
experience with an artist (other than a courteous smile) was rather
horrible.

I had found this artists work through a Google search and had really
liked it, and, being slightly awkward and in a bit of awe of
actually seeing this artist there, I blurted out, “I really like your
work, I’ve seen it online”. Now granted, this is not the most
brilliant thing to say, but, lets give me some credit for effort, I’m
practically shaking I’m so nervous to talk to this person.

The artist pounced on me, and interrogated me as to where online I’d
seen her work, and what I was doing with it. She was incredibly nasty
about it and made me feel like a thief. That would have ruined my
show, except at the next booth our group had stopped at, my professor
introduced me to the artist, (who happened to be a very nice man) who
was willing to answer my questions. He told me about Rhino and how he
used it to make his boxes, and talked to me about what it was like
being a showing artist.

The next person I talked to, when I told him I was a student, pulled
out his tools and showed them all to me, he even gave some pointers
to practice my sawing skills.

So, I guess what my point is, be nice to the people, especially
those who are young and new to the field. Not to be overly dramatic,
but the first artist I talked to could have ruined my outlook on the
field. Can you imagine if everyone was hostile?

The thing that I love about our studio and my department is that we
are willing to help each other out. If there is a new student people
offer themselves as a resource, when someone figures out a way of
doing something that works for them, they aren’t afraid to share.

Sharing willingly is going to get you more admirers than
hostility, or misleading them.

Anastasiya

58

Dean,

The margins on jewelry is so hi that they dont want anybody to
know the markups. If the public knew the price difference between
what is retailed in the mall and what the wholesale price of things
were there would be a lot more bargaining and lower prices.

This is yet again an indication of how little most people know about
the costs involved in running a retail operation. By the time you
get through paying rent, percentages (in the case of mall stores),
advertising, employees, heat, electricity, insurance, phones,
display costs, bank charges, security, the costs associated with
stocking inventory, etc. (not to mention build out costs) those high
markups don’t amount to much at all. In my small 1 employee (plus
myself and my wife part time), non-mall store, my monthly expenses
(not including cost of materials) exceed $10,000. If I operated on a
20% margin (which is what you seem to intimate is what everyone
should work on, because some people do) I would have to sell $600,000
annually just to cover my base expenses, which wouldn’t include my
own salary, profit or money to buy and invest in new materials. I
would have to sell well over a million dollars a year so I could
make, what in this area, would be considered a modest living. But in
order to sell that much I would have to take on more employees which
would raise my base expenses to the point that I would have to do a
million and a half (of course I’m back where I started again needing
new employees). Please, if you haven’t ever run a retail operation,
don’t talk about what kind of markups are needed to run a profitable
business, because without the real world experience you haven’t got
a clue.

This is probably illegal as it is falsely advertising a sale but
it is common practise in jewelry stores.

I would be careful about throwing stones here. On your website you
have absolutely no gemstone disclosure which, at least in this
country, is illegal and unethical.

However, JA International in New York wont let me into their
shows.

It is possible that you don’t meet their ethical standards, which
includes conducting your business with honesty (which in this case
means full disclosure of gemstone treatments and proper
identification of gem materials), and “whose advertising and
promotions offer comparative prices or savings will clearly and
conspicuously disclose the basis for those claims” (something your
website doesn’t do), among other things (their full code of ethics
and standards is on their website). JA is also an organization truly
devoted to jewelers who have a bricks and mortar presence and that
is their focus. Just because you want them to accept you doesn’t mean
they have to.

Even if they did let me in JA would still just consider me
somebody to charge $200 a night for an hotel room to

I’m sorry, but have you been to New York City lately??? If you don’t
want to stay in a dive most hotel rooms there start significantly
higher than that.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
617-234-4392
@Daniel_R_Spirer

59

I guess that if one doesnt have a leg to stand on the obvious course
of action is to make personal attacks that has nothing to do with the
topic being discussed. The only defence you have about jewelry
markups being always higher than anybody else is some blah blah blah
about the costs of doing business. To hear you talk one would believe
that all the other stores in the mall dont have the same rent,
employee, insurance and other expenses. Somehow the world is stacked
against jewelry people. Fact is, except for the big chain stores and
jewlry stores most stores in the mall live on 30% to 100% markups and
they dont perpetually have a misleading sale going on all the time.
Markups at jewelry stores is often 3 to 5 times what any other store
charges.

Recently places like wall mart and other dept stores have got in on
the jewelry action and sells things for half the prices of the
jewelry stores even after their grand sale that is always going on.

The problem is that jewelry sotres try to sell an image rather than
a product and more expensive is somehow desirable because of the
cost. And the extreme effort that various show organizers go through
to keep the public nieve about the real cost of jewelry keeps the
retail trade quite happy. Everybody who goes to Hong kong shopping
says how cheap it is. Your typical jewelry item bought in Hong Kong
is a lot less on a quality per quality basis than what you see in
your typical north american mall. And you cant tell me that in Hong
Kong they dont have the rent or overhead that Malls in the states
have.

And the show organizers and retailers are not paranoid about the
public knowing the mark ups. In fact if you go to the Bangkok show
next month the last two days the public is allowed in.

I consistantly hear dealers saying the last few years that business
at the american shows have been down and everybody has glowing things
to say about the asian shows.

My prediction is that over the next 5 to 10 years dealers in North
America will have a hard time and will either adapt or you will see
fewer jewelry stores as you get a more educated consumer in large
part because of the internet.

And yes, you are right in that I dont qualify for entry into JA
shows because I dont have a brick and morter business. JA, like the
record industry, is resisting change in the way they do business even
in light of obvious changes in the world. But what is strange is that
when dealers who go to the JA show meet me in a show in asia they
seem happy to take my money even though I sell on the internet (And
occasionally at shows myself). I am betting that jewery markups will
be coming down over the next few years. Every other store manages to
survive on less than 100% markup without having misleading sales.
That wont help the person who wants to brag about how much he spent
though. But I am sure that there will always be retail dealers
willing to charge bragging costs to their customers

Sincerely
DEAN

60

No comment needed on running a jewellery store from me, and I
totally concur with those retail expenses.

B-U-T hotels in the Greater NYC start at about $250.00 and rocket
upwards in increments of $50.00+ per suite. The closer to downtown
core, the higher they will go. That is minimum of $250.00, PLUS the
hotel “Occupancy Tax”, “City Tax” and “State Tax” or a total of
about an additional 18% on top of the hotel room fee. Did I say
anything about telephone charges and wireless connections. How about
those taxi’s and the food in restaurants? That’s why I hardly ever
get into the city from Toronto. The airfare from here to NYC, plus
the drive into the city is about $550-$600.00+ I can fly into London,
England cheaper!..

Gerry Lewy!