Keeping trade secrets

Jewelry Discussion
21

Dear All,

I kept a trade secret once, and then gave it up to the first person
who asked. It was rather unceremonious and hardly appreciated, so it
must have not been worth much. I felt like I was handing over 15
years of experience in one afternoon of training! What got me was
when I asked about what he was doing with it, he told me, and then I
complemented his “boss” about the great work. This was followed by a
group announcement from said “boss” not to disclose secrets. It was
not in those exact words, but you get the idea.

A trade secret today is more like “Information that is hard to
find”. Some have become so accustomed to the ease of the internet,
that they quit reading books, and just ask someone who has read the
book.

Jeff Simkins
Cincinnati, OH

22

Hi Kim,

Why not take orders for your students and resell them the beads at a
small profit? Or make up your own kits? If you feel the need to
explain it to them, tell them you can get a better deal on bulk items
then they can individually anyway. Personally, I don’t feel that
there’s a need to share my suppliers with people whom I’m teaching.
Most won’t have a business license for those wholesalers who require
such… but there’s always one person who might take all your
instructions and decide they can undercut you on your
classes.

On a forum such as Orchid, there’s less of a risk then with students
(assuming they are local) are living and working in your
selling/teaching vicinity.

On another note… when I have people coming up to me at my booth
and ask me directly who my bead suppliers are, I’ll happily give them
the most expensive source (whether I actually use them or not). I
tell them that if they want to meet the wholesaler’s $500 minimum,
buying around 50 strands of pearls and $100-$300 in sterling beads,
they’ll be able to meet the price competitively on the bracelet they
are eyeing. Makes the $19 bracelet look like a bargain, no? :slight_smile:

I don’t know how advanced your classes are, but for most needs, Fire
Mountain gems is a good resource for students because they will sell
beads in small quantities.

Tracy
Tracy’s Treasures

23

in my experience of sharing the exchange between
professional people roughly break into 3 categories.

  1. “scratch my back and I will scratch yours”,

  2. “I won’t scratch your back but expect you to scratch mine” and

  3. “I will scratch your back even if you can’t scratch mine”

I think here at Orchid, a lot of us fall under the 3rd category,
would be impossible to tell how many percent without a blind survey.
So many people are willing to share their knowledge and experience
without expecting a thing in return.

I have met many people under the 1st category - they would feel the
waters first and see if they can get something out of you in exchange
for their before sharing any themselves.

Then there is the 2nd category which I find the most annoying - they
ask you questions about your techniques, your casters, etc, and when
you ask them the same question back, you get “I couldn’t possibly
share that info, it’s confidential” or “My caster is so busy that if
I give you his contact he won’t have the time for me anymore”. I have
had that happen to me. Boy, was I pissed off!

Before I had that experience, I fell under the 3rd category, happily
blabbering out any info that I thought the other person might find
useful or helpful. Now, however, I am trying to see if the other
person would be willing to share as well. I am not exactly under the
1st category, because I would share with a person that is just
starting out and can’t give anything back. I just don’t want to share
with people that are trying to fish out my sources, knowing in
advance that they won’t share with me theirs.

Amery -

I understand the problems you have had with recommending your
casters and your unwillingness to be in the middle of them. But
wouldn’t it be better if you asked your casters and warned them in
advance too that you are not responsible for any bad customers? If
you don’t give their contact to anybody now, they might be missing on
some good customers as well.

Ian -

I find people are more willing to share their trade secrets with
customers than with other professionals. I guess they don’t feel
threatened that their ideas will be stolen. I often don’t disclose
the fact that I’m a jewelry designer when I’m admiring jewelry in a
gallery. I’ve had several times people refuse to tell me how the
piece is made, as if I’m there to steal their designs and ideas! I
find it insulting as I have many more ideas than time to implement
them. When being a regular customer - I’ve never had a problem of my
questions not being answered.

Ruslana
http://www.atehmodus.com

24

Hi Tracy:

Why not take orders for your students and resell them the beads at
a small profit? Or make up your own kits? Personally, I don't feel
that there's a need to share my suppliers with people whom I'm
teaching.

I am tossing these ideas back and forth. I just can’t decide yet. I
have many anxieties about selling beads in the town where the
beadstore I was associated with is located. I don’t know how many
people on Orchid have been involved in a partnership that fell apart,
but it can be big nasty business. One minute, they were calling me
family, the next minute, we’re in court and I’m “malicious” and
“money-hungry”.

To sell beads on their turf means to go head-to-head and, quite
frankly, I loathe confrontation. Some days, however, I wake up ready
to take on the World. I change my confidence level with the tides.

I think the best thing to do is give my students the best sources
(not necessarily the bead store sources) and sell them their beads at
a fair price. It’s what they deserve. I want them to get the best for
their tuition dollar and I want to retain my teaching/selling
position with the art center.

I wonder, what attracts people more…the business end (making all
those little decisions and putting them together in a successful
endeavor) or the creation (making all those little decisions and
putting them together in a successful endeavor)?

Apparently, today is an introspective day
Kim Starbard
Cove Beads

25

Thanks to a generous jeweler who chose not to keep secrets I’m in
this business today. She encouraged me to take classes, complimented
me on my beginning work, showed me her tools and studio, and gave me
all kinds of about anything I asked. I vowed to do the
same if anyone needed me. I know we’re all competitors of sorts, but
everyone interprets things differently so I say share the wealth!

Tammy Kirks
Red Bee Designs

26

In the discussion in this thread, I feel as though it might be
helpful to make a distinction between “trade secrets” in the sense
of methods, tricks or discoveries, and “trade secrets” in the sense
of sources. These seem quite different to me. As a person with no
special or secret sources, I feel free to go out on a limb and say
that if the key to your work being special is knowing where to buy
something, you’re on shaky ground indeed. But if that is the case, I
guess it would be pretty foolish to go around broadcasting that

As for the kinds of tricks, techniques and discoveries that can make
someone’s work unique, I’m of two minds. On the one hand, if it took
you 20 years of work to figure something out, why should you just
hand it over to someone else who hasn’t “earned” it? On the other
hand, it is likely that anyone who is in a position to fully
understand what you are offering probably isn’t going to use it to
duplicate your work. Also, few things worth doing depend on only one
"secret", but rather a host of skills coming together.

There are a few technical tricks I have figured out on my own that I
have debated about sharing. But when I am writing my “tips” column
for the CMAG (Chicago Metal Arts Guild) newsletter, or working with
a student, the fact is I can’t keep a secret. If I think someone
will benefit, I tell them all I can. The thing is, so far, no one
else has seen the value in the very tricks I am most proud of!

The best defense against being copied is to do work that is your own
labor of love, that is way too much trouble for anyone else to
bother imitating. Of course, it helps if that work doesn’t sell all
that well any way…

–Noel

27

Ateh…

I understand the problems you have had with recommending your
casters and your unwillingness to be in the middle of them. But
wouldn't it be better if you asked your casters and warned them in
advance too that you are not responsible for any bad customers? If
you don't give their contact to anybody now, they might be missing
on some good customers as well.

Trust me, after the 2nd encounter, I started leaving disclaimers all
over the place… “I have no idea if she pays her bills”, “I don’t
know how much experience she has”, “this is only a referral, I’m not
vouching for him”, and I told the designers: “You have to be very
specific and ask a lot of questions.” “Things happen when you cast,
you need to be prepared-- maybe you should take a class- or take the
time to pick my brain to see what will cast and what won’t”…

And I still got grief from both sides!!! These are small casting
houses, it’s business but there’s a real personal level in there,
too.

However, I do still recommend people, but it’s few and far between.
It’s people that I know better and I still give warnings out- “he’s
expensive, but good”, “he’s cheap, but slow”… And I tell the
people that I recommend that by making an introduction my reputation
with my caster is on the line. If something happens, it will make me
look bad.

And something did recently happen with a friend of mine that dropped
off the face of the earth after casting with my guy for 3 years.
Left him with a huge casting order that she never picked up or paid
for. So, lucky for him the price of silver is skyrocketing! Now he’s
gonna melt it down and hopefully not loose too much $$$.

-Amery

28

When I was at college studying silversmithing I was fortunate enough
in my third year to meet 2 ex-jewellers - both had come to the
college to study different fields of art. I met one of them whilst he
was cruising around the silversmithing studios taking an interest in
what was going on and then I met the other through him. They had also
met each other at college. One of them, aged around 50 decided he
liked the atmosphere in that area, took up a bench space and did some
work in that area. We became good, close friends (and still are) and
he was always open to helping me or any of the other students there.
He had no secrets… and his advice was carefully thought through and
explained detail by detail… and his approach was fantastic - he
didn’t give me the answer, rather, he explained how to find the
answer for myself - and then coached me through the process if I was
still having trouble. The other ex-jeweller didn’t settle down to
work in the area but came to visit the the other jeweller and myself
regularly - he took an interest in the work I was doing and also
began offering me help freely… however, his help was different -
there was only one correct way of doing anything… and, he usually
told me that I was not to tell any of the other students what methods
he taught me or he’d stop helping me. I didn’t understand it but
respected the request… but sometimes it seemed so cruel… for
example, he once told me about a particular flux he used to prevent
firescale which is freely available from any jewellery supplier and
then made a really big deal that I was not to tell the other
students - thing was, the other students really could have used the
help - our class teacher was lazy and hopeless and had told us in the
first place to coat everything with flux (easy flow) but not why…
then when we’d get to polishing it and it was full of firescale he
didn’t explain how it happened - just to use abrasives to remove it
(speaking as though it was not preventable)… it was an extremely
frustrating process for all of the students and this one ex-jeweller
could have helped us all… but he refused…

Thinking back on it later - the ex-jeweller who was full of secrets
obviously had a desire to pass his knowledge on… but I think he
was a very insecure and bitter person too… I thought (stupidly)
that I could gently encourage him to relax, be more open with people
and get past his bitterness but in the end there was something we
couldn’t agree on and he wouldn’t agree to disagree so I’ve not seen
him since. The other ex-jeweller who became a jeweller again (amongst
many artistic pursuits) was and is comfortable about himself and has
a balanced view about the world. In our 6 year friendship he has
always seen our relationship as being mutually beneficial - that an
older person has a natural desire to be able to pass their knowledge
on and that I (as well as other younger friends he has and his own
children) have facilitated this need whilst the guidance and
friendship he has given to me has been worth more than I can
describe. And so, I think the mistake in having closely guarded
secrets is in thinking that sharing is a one-way street and that
friendship is over-rated.

29

i haven’t seen anyone give a list of galleries that the’ve had
success with, past or present, i haven’t used many galleries, but
i have been in a showroom in manhattan (COC+CO), and completed many
orders for neimann marcus out of there, and i also have had much
success canvassing jewelry companies that attend the pier shows and
the hotel circuit shows, doing freelance design and production for
them,dp

30

Craig,

Just out of curiosity, what trade secrets have been discussed on
Orchid that anyone can think of? I wouldn't know a trade secret off
hand..

Our greatest trade secret on Orchid is Hanuman and Ton and all the
great work they have done for all for us. Don’t tell any other list
operators, it’s our secret…

With tongue in cheek
Kay

31

I believe Kim was thinking out loud in regard to sources her former
associate uses. I do not believe she was planning to make additional
profit in reselling beads. I do believe Lisa’s start of this thread
was excellent. The answers have shown the nature of the replier.

At UCSD’s Craft Center, both instructors begin each semester with a
handout listing sources and suppliers. Nothing is withheld. In fact,
when for silver, there is a price break for a larger purchase, it is
suggested classmates get together for a group purchase.

Where the supplier is “wholesale only,” several students could make
a group purchase to qualify for the price break. Withholding sources
is just not cool, certainly not for the small profit to be made in
reselling.

Texturing methods, well that has been discussed here before, is
probably in the archives, and i know if I were to put that question
out, the floodgates would open.

Bless Orchid and its members who with Hanuman’s hand have made this
the greatest resource.

The Orchid Dinner was wonderful, as it always is. I cherish my
annual hugs from online friends in distant places. The silent auction
was great, so many first class items to bid on. My personal thanks to
Orchid member generosity.

Hugs
Terrie

32

To Kim,

This is what I would do. It’s a win-win situation.

I think the best thing to do is give my students the best sources
(not necessarily the bead store sources) and sell them their beads
at a fair price. It's what they deserve. I want them to get the
best for their tuition dollar and I want to retain my
teaching/selling position with the art center.

For me, I love the Creation… but to my dismay I excel at the
Business. Hopefully it will come to a 50/50 mix and make me satisfied
in both areas.

I wonder, what attracts people more...the business end (making all
those little decisions and putting them together in a successful
endeavor) or the creation (making all those little decisions and
putting them together in a successful endeavor)?

Thinking about your ex-partnership (ex-p). If appropriate and if
your students chance running into the ex-p, then it might be in your
favor to have mentioned it (as much or little as you feel comfortable
with but really less is more) so your students won’t hear your ex-p’s
story first. Remember it is a small world.

Apparently, today is an introspective day You need to have one
every once in a while.

To Tracy,

I agree to how you handle questions at a show, I do the same. But why
not tell your students, afterall they are there to receive knowledge.
If they do it just for fun/hobby then it won’t hurt you. If someone
goes pro then you might have competition and if that someone decides
to undercut you with the same sources then that someone will
eventually compete themselves out of business.

To all,

I don’t keep (this kind of) secrets very well. I’m not The Olde Pro
so when I have questions/problems I hope for help and answers and
therefore I do the same for others, be it on this list or my
neighbor. And it works, I usually get the help I ask for and some. I
sometimes encounter “tell nothing” behavior both in this trade and
others, younger less than older (trade). Might it be a tradition
going back to the guilds - master and apprentice. Does anyone know?
Orchid/Ganoksin are excellent to turn to when you need to go beyond
the books.

michaela

33 
i haven't seen anyone give a list of galleries that the've had
success with

Hmmm…giving out a list of galleries is an interesting thought, but
I seriously doubt that it would do you any good. Galleries buy only
according to their personal taste and the demographic of their area
in both style and price. They might love my work, but loathe yours.
Not personal, just business. It would be kind of a waste of my time
to send a sales package to a gallery that sells low end anodized
aluminum, even if it is beautiful stuff, when I do high end 22k.
Great gallery or not, it ain’t gonna go. I liked the idea of a
“white list”. Listing names of galleries that pay on time, type of
work and price range sold, and who are great to work with. No
negative comments allowed. How about it someone? Of course then I
suppose we would have to assume that the jewelers approaching those
galleries were responsible honest people. Nothing is ever easy is it?
Wish we could just legally print the rats
instead…lol…lol…lol…

Lisa, (Responsible and honest…ok…hand over those anodized aluminum
stores!) Topanga, CA, USA

34 
On the one hand, if it took you 20 years of work to figure
something out, why should you just hand it over to someone else
who hasn't "earned" it?

Could be you’re just ‘slow’. There maybe someone else out there to
whom the solution was conspicuously obvious.

Dave

35 
The answers have shown the nature of the replier."

Now, is this a true statement? The difference in replies could be the
difference between someone who has little or no experience in
business, someone who does jewelry as a hobby, someone who is a
teacher, someone who was naive, someone who had got taken advantage
of or a person who is a professional. Just like the designers who
copyright work and do not allow others to knock them off, knowledge
given away can be detrimental to ones business health. Each of you
have to determine what benefit or risk will be incurred by sharing.
And sharing tools and suppliers is totally different than sharing
techniques or processes used to create or design jewelry. Thinking
one can deduce another person’s nature by their reply seems quite
shortsighted. But thanks for sharing your comprehensive analytical
insight. Sometimes the phrase “If I tell you I would have to kill
you” is a joke. And sometimes it is not. There is a story about the
number 13. It goes that when only royalty could wear jewelry, anyone
caught wearing jewelry who was not royal was put to death. Normally
the court had 12 jewelers, and when a special project came up and
they needed more help, they would train more jewelers. When they
finished the project, 13 and up were killed. Knowledge was protected.
I do not know the provenance of this story. Don’t know the truth of
this story, told to me 40 years ago by an old wax carver, but not
too far fetched for my mind.

Older and theoretically smarter, or not…

Richard Hart

36

Some you can share. Other keeps some of us
in business.

A few examples may be:

I wouldn’t ask a jeweler what he paid for a particular stone. I may
ask what price range I would have the sell this same stone to
compete.

I’ve been shot at, nearly blown up, and threatened while searching
sources overseas. Many dealers have shed blood to locate overseas gem
sources cheaper than our competitor. It is business savy to keep some
sources close to the chest.

We have patent pending custom cuts We would lose our
shirts if we gave this to overseas cutters. (It doesn’t
stop them anyhow)

On the other hand, sharing techniques, talents and stories is part
of the business.

Sincerely,

Ed Cleveland
303-882-8855

37

As a goldsmith with over 45 years trade experience, I am happy to
pass on any manufacturing methods and supplier addresses that anyone
wants to ask for. The only secret that I will definately not pass on
is my customer’s names and addresses. Who in their right mind will
give their customer to any likely competition.

So if any orchidians want bench advice, e-mail me, if I can help, I
will, providing the question is within my skills capability. James
Miller in the UK, nearing retirement.

see my work here:
http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/jmdesign.htm

38

I guess if you have the soul of a teacher, it is your nature to
impart your knowledge to those who are interested. It’s a mark of
your success if your students take what you have taught and go on to
greater things as a result.

On the other hand, if you’re stuck in a highly competitive work
environment with a chance of losing your job if you don’t keep up, it
might be foolhardy of you to share what you know with someone who
could end up replacing you.

Dee

39 
So if any orchidians want bench advice, e-mail me, if I can help, I
will, providing the question is within my skills capability.

After looking at your elegant and technically amazing work James, in
the future, I will happily bombard you with inane and perhaps
esoteric technical bench questions…Providing of course your
answers are within MY skills capability…lol

Lisa, (Buds are forming, magnolias are blooming, chickens are laying.
Somehow spring has sprung mid February here) Topanga, CA USA

40

I asked a question on the “Quality vs Time” thread and so far
haven’t seen a reply, maybe it’s a trade secret, so I’ll try again on
this thread:

Are there time guidelines for production, such as making bezel
settings from start to finish, other various fabricating projects and
polishing? I thought I saw time requirements on the JA bench tests a
friend had, where do those come from?

Thanks, Marta