India among lowest cost producers of jewelry

when I see a product at Radio Shack for $100.00 and at Walmart
(right next store) for 78.00....I go for the 78.00. 

OK, I live in a small town where I can see the impact of Walmart and
similar chain stores up close. I have spoken with people who lost
their small businesses because their customers went to Walmart for
“deals.” I have spoken with Walmart employees, also, and have a
pretty good picture of what working there is like.

So, I am no fan of Radio Shack, either, I prefer local businesses
over chains, but I said all that to say this; the true cost of the
Walmart item you speak of may be $78 + your neighbors losing their
small businesses + your losing purchasing options due to the
decimation of small businesses in the community + jobs which were
provided by small businesses being replaced by Walmart greeter
positions + most of your $78 going to Arkansas and China rather than
remaining in the community, paying taxes, creating new jobs and
bringing up the standard of living.

In Taos, a few miles away from us, they put in a Walmart roughly 10
years ago. At the time, there were over 400 small businesses in Taos.
Now there are roughly 200 small businesses. Now everyone there shops
at Walmart not for “deals” but because there is now no place else to
shop locally for many items.

Independent local businesses are part of what gives a community its
character. I don’t want my community to become one more place where
everyone wears Walmart and eats McFood.

I don’t think I/we/my community can afford Walmart’s low prices. I
don’t shop there. Haven’t shopped their in years.

Lee Einer
Dos Manos Jewelry
http://www.dosmanosjewelry.com

We all (in the U.S.) still shop at Walmart. We complain as we do
about the unfairness of it all, but when I see a product at Radio
Shack for $100.00 and at Walmart (right next store) for 78.00....I
go for the 78.00 

My 1st post, also with respect.

I don’t shop at Walmart. I stopped after I learned of their
marketing policies. The more I learn the less desire I have to shop
there. And yes, I will spend more at a locally owned store. It may
not be the smartest way to purchase items but I am always grateful
when my clients buy from me and not the big stores.

Umesh;

Thank you for your insight. Could you give us some examples of the
cost of living there? For example how much to feed a family of say 4
for a day. What is the cost of housing? That might help in our
understanding of the wages you gave us.

Cande

Linda

I saw a new client this morning, he asked what are my prices? I said
my pricing is quality setting. If you want mediocre setting done, go
to others downtown for 1/2 the price. My price is high quality
nuttin’ more. He will see my style of setting with "half bezel"
tennis bracelets. If he wants to send it to other out-sourcing
countries, so be it. But to have a quality setter within a few
minutes drive from his store, it takes know-how and reliability. The
lack of setting “Can-Am experience” is worse than the cheaper price.

One ultra large retail chain is shying away from other countries
setting, why? Linda said it well, long lead time, won’t do any
repairs, shoddy quality. (no country names mentioned)…One of these
days its gonna backfire on them…big time!!! “Lots of shine and heavy
Rhodium Plating” does not bode well with expensive jewellery, I think
its starting to happen…

Gerry Lewy!

If you look at American history, we also had periods of long, hard
work for very low wages--by present standards--and child labor that
helped families survive and get ahead. 

The families that worked in these situations did not get ahead when
their children worked in the factories. Many young women and children
died due to their poor working and living conditions.

I can site my own family history in this issue. I come from a long
line of textile mill and sweatshop workers in New England. The whole
family- including children as young as 10 years old- worked in poor
conditons, very long hours, fighting the bosses for their pay. They
lived in the mill-owned tenements- we call them slums now. It took
generations for them to actually get ahead. My father is in his 70s,
but he grew up in those tenements, and it wasn’t until he was an
adult in the 1950s that he was able to break that long cycle of
poverty.

We also have a history in the US of the women and children workers
going out out on strike against their conditions – these women and
children were severely beaten as a result.

Child labor was a bad thing here in the US. It is still a bad thing
around the world. There simply is no justification for it.

Nancie

With respect, We all (in the U.S.) still shop at Walmart. We
complain as we do about the unfairness of it all, but when I see a
product at Radio Shack for $100.00 and at Walmart (right next
store) for 78.00....I go for the 78.00. 

You start out speaking about “we” and then wisely switch to “I”. I
do not shop at Walmart. I go for the more expensive item at the
smaller store every time or I do without. And when I buy the higher
priced item, I thank the sales person and tell them I’m glad to shop
at their store.

I expect that most of us on this list from the US can buy the more
expensive item or do without – it’s just a matter of changing your
mind about what you do and do not want to buy and what you will and
will not pay, either in real or hidden costs.

Christine in Littleton, Massachusetts

I agree with Lee Einer. Lee in right is saying that we cannot afford
Walmart’s low prices.

Right now my neighborhood is involved in a movement to keep a
Walmart from building a mega store in a residential area, on a street
that is already glutted with traffic, and is the only road to the
local hospital. We envision ambulances with critically ill people
stalled as the traffic piles in and out of the Walmart store onto
this road.

We are fighting a losing battle, as Walmart has huge amounts of
money to fight us, and we are relying on small fund raisers. They
present huge charts and graphs to the city council to bolster their
case, and bring in high-profile lawyers and planners. All we have are
inexperienced but dedicated volunteers.

At one point they offered to meet with us to discuss the matter. A
meeting was set up at the local school, and their high powered
representatives came. However, they would not let us talk but
bombarded us with all sorts of statistics and data aimed to show what
an asset they would be to our community. When we tried to rebut their
argument that Walmart would not be detrimental to local business they
walked out of the meeting and refused to discuss the matter any
further.

Another time, they were supposed to send a representative to meet
with concerned residents of our area. We all showed up in large
numbers, but they never made an appearance. And so it has been going.

All the little family owned stores in our local area will be put out
of business. These people are our friends and are fearful of what the
future will bring to them.

It boggles my mind that anyone would want to buy from Walmart in
view of their awful business practices, shoddy treatment of their
employees, cutthroat business, and willingness to just step on anyone
who gets in their way.

Again, as Lee Einer says, “we can’t afford Walmart’s low prices.”

Hello Craig,

I'm not sure whose cut stones you are looking at but I have yet to
see a stone cut overseas that can stand up to a side by side
comparison of an american cut stone. I have seen and compared my
stones to many foreign and the differences are obvious. 

Hmm, I’m not American. I know that I’m one foreigner that can cut as
well as most American cutters. I think Australia has produced more
than it’s share of international faceting competition winners. Other
foreigners that come to mind; Watermeyer, Tolkowsky, Munsteiner, I
could go on.

America doesn’t have the exclusive rights to quality and is just as
capable of producing rubbish products as any other country.

Tony.

Anthony Lloyd-Rees.
www.OpalsInTheBag.com
www.TheGemDoctor.com
Vancouver,
Beautiful British Columbia.

Kim,

My I respectfully reply in turn that we do not “all go to walmart.” I
have never seen the inside of a walmart in my life— or a sam’s
club. And I never will. As far as big box retailers charging somewhat
less than locally owned companies, I shop at local stores never the
less. If I can not afford a thing, I don’t buy it. Until the early
1980s all of us in the United States lived that way, why we do not
any longer is a topic for another debate.

Marya
Cols, OH. US

Dear Cande,

Could you give us some examples of the cost of living there? For
example how much to feed a family of say 4 for a day. What is the
cost of housing? That might help in our understanding of the wages
you gave us 

One Example of cost of living in Mumbai 1$ = Rs:45.00

To feed ( Good nutrisional food with milk,fruits ) a familiy of 4
Rs:350. House with one bedroom,hall,kitchen (500 square feet area,
Onership one million rupees onwards) maitanence Rs: 1000.00( $22),
if rented $ 111 onwards per month, travelling expenses Rs:500
onwards per person, Telephone bill Rs:500 onwards. Electricity bill
Rs:500 onwards. monthly school fess for a child $22 onwards, cost of
books and stationary school uniform and miscillinius extra.

even in slums the rent of a 10x10 feet room is $22 per month, in
which a familry of more than 5 lives, most of the production workers
comes from slums of Mumbai.

May god help us with total health Physical, Mental, spiritual and
social.

Friend
Umesh

Hi Marya:

My I respectfully reply in turn that we do not "all go to
walmart." 

My mistake. Sorry about that. Sometimes, I forget how many people I
am speaking to when I post here. My experience with everyone shopping
at Walmart has been a local one. The parking lot over there is packed
nowadays, day and night.

With apologies to those I have offended,

Kim Starbard
Cove Beads

I expect that most of us on this list from the US can buy the more
expensive item or do without -- it's just a matter of changing
your mind about what you do and do not want to buy and what you
will and will not pay, either in real or hidden costs. 

This is true. Most of us can buy the more expensive item or do
without. However, the long-term consequences of this line of thinking
are as follows:

It’s Christmas here in Connecticut. Everyone in town sees garland on
sale at Walmart for 4.00. They see the same garland at the local
family-run garden center for 20.00. We all get together and say “I’m
not going to patronize Walmart because they’re unscrupulous.
However, we (a lot of us) can’t afford the 20.00 garland, so a lot of
us are going to have to do without” If you expand on this
hypothetical situation to include all small businesses in town and
all products that are more expensive at the smaller stores, but not
absolutely necessary to sustain life, what is the end result? No one
buys that which is not completely necessary and a lot of small
businesses go broke this year.The line of thinking is very honorable,
but, unfortunately, not complete. I wish it were. I am a small
business-person in this town.

A lot of the findings I buy are from India. A lot of the beads I buy
are from India. Getting these items to me involved poor working
conditions for people. I don’t feel good about that. Remember, the
close of my email said “I have been fortunate, I would like to give
back to people in the way that I have received. What can I do to
help?”

You have someone saying to you directly, “How can I help?”…and you
focused on the fact that I shop in Walmart.

I am surmising that many replies will focus on the fact that I am
from Connecticut.

Best Regards,
Kim Starbard
Cove Beads

I’m with you Christine Quiriy!

Paying more for something also has the advantage of making you think
twice about buying it… “do i really need that?”… question that
not too many people ask themselves it seems… merry christmas to
all!

Pascal

I would like to respond to some comments that have been put out
there on this thread. I saw somewhere…and the posts have been so
copius that I cannot retrieve the exact one…that one of our
Indian friends stated that they thought this kind of treatment of
workers and types of conditions went on in many other parts of the
world where jewelry is mass produced. I would never say never, and I
am sure that there is annecdotal evidence of bad behavior anywhere,
but I will take exception to this statement in areas I have
frequented.

I live in Bangkok and I service large factories with technical
assistance and teaching in Thailand, Hong Kong, China and Indonesia.
I choose not to practice my trade in India by choice, because of
many of the conditions I have read here. I will say here that I am
not part of the crowd that helped moved the jewelry industry
off-shore…but I followed that migration because, at my old age, I
still have a young family to support and the work I do was not
located in the States anymore. I help many of these factories
because it is what I do and my family still spends too much of my
money, so taking a job in another field with a lot less pay was not
an option. (Although many in my industry would love to see me in a
security guard’s uniform outside of a Denny’s somewhere…) But it
is the career I chose and that I love to do.

I have literally been to hundreds of factories of all sizes and
types in these regions. I have come across 1 where I knew for sure
that the workers were underaged, and that was deep in China. There
were girls there that ran the melting room that were 14 to 17 years
old. And I am certain that tucked away in the masses of workers I
have seen in my travels, there may have been some under age. But as
a whole…in Thailand and in China and Indonesia…they were of
working age. (Now…working age can mean different things. My
daughter in Ca. worked when she was 16)

In the China factories and many in Thailand, the workers are fed 3
meals a day at either complete company expense or at a pittance to
the worker. Most of the factories have huge cafeterias where all are
sustained by professional cooks. True, in China, I ate “old
chickens” that chewed like leather and “vegetables” that looked like
they were plucked from alongside the road, but there was plenty of
it to eat. (And I eat the same stuff the workers eat and it’s not
too bad on the whole)

Most places in China provide clothing for them in the form of
company colors…sweatpants and sweatshirts of good quality, where
the clothes they had before were not. The wages are of course, low,
but noone I have ever come across in any of these countries were
starving or sick or on the verge of death, nor were they “plucked
out of the slums” either. Most are common working-class young people
who are trained in a skill and work hard… and not in shackles or
with whips at their backs.

Most places in China provide living quarters in the form of
dormatories constructed by the companies on the premisis, and the
ones I have personally seen are modern, clean and nice. (Small, to
be sure…but no slums or shacks.) These are likewise rented by the
workers at a pittance. Many where families and children are
prevelent, the workers are paid extra amounts so they can live “off
campus”, so to speak.

In many of these industrialized areas of, say, China…where CNN
correspondants don’t even go…many of these girls will not have
the opportunity to go to school nor ever have any chance of a job
except for prostitution. They are basically condemned to a real
crappy life if it were not for a huge company coming in, paying
them…feeding them…and clothing them. As one post once
said…there is always another side of the coin.

I certainly do not support what has happened to all industries…not
just jewelry…in the off-shore flight game. It has personally
disrupted my life too. But if it is inevitable, then let it be at
least some sort of fair and equitable treatment for these workers who
do the jobs. And in other places besides India, it is just that.

And the railing I have read about the Wal-Marts and the Targets make
me puke. They are not the only buyers of this jewelry…which
include some of the most respected chains, owners and personalities
in this industry, whom we all see in the pages of the jewelry
magazines at their award dinners and charity events and hobnobbing
with the Hollywood Left. They are equally culpable in all of this.
You would not believe some of the names on job cards I have seen in
the depths of China and Indonesia. Not just Wal-Mart and Target. It
would make your hair curl if you knew who was really at the bottom
of the support for these places.

And that is where it can change if it were to happen. I remember the
chastizing of Kathy Lee and her clothing years ago by all the
journalistic crusaders. But where in any of the magazines or media in
this industry do I read any outrage about all the big US names in
jewelry and how we should boycot them for their practices? Nowhere,
my friends. The “journalists” are as silent as a mouse, for fear of
not being invited to the next celebrity jewelry party or awards
dinner. But they gleefully cut off the legs of Kathy Lee for her
stupid clothes…and their pressure in that case worked.

So as I get ready to leave China on my way back “home” to Bangkok, I
hope that I have shed a little light on some of the facts and
realities outside of India. (I am in Dongguan, China writing this
after spending a week in Panyu.) I just finished lunch and as I stood
at the gates of this large jewelry company smoking a cigarette, I
watched as the workers came back from their lunch. Laughing, smiling
and joking…the girls arm in arm…the guys playing kick ball. Not
the same, I assume, than the descriptive reports of degredation we
have been getting from Mumbai.

India…I cannot speak about. I do not know…just what I have
heard. But after witnessing what I have seen in these other jewelry
countries…I can only hope that India follows their lead and cleans
up their act. And that the powers that be in this industry, finally
find their voices…(Fat chance)

Thanks for listening…

Marc “Doc” Robinson
Hydrometallurgist/Director
ABI Precious Metals Asia, Ltd.

Some one said that “we all (in the U.S.) still shop at Walmart.” But
we all don’t. I just bought a tool for $78 dollars that was made in
the USA rather than the ubiquous copy for $20 that isn’t even given
a country of origin in the online jewellery tool sellers. On the
other hand I have received comments about buying american from
teachers who have tools in their student kits from off-shore sources
and yet heard that same teacher extol going to Walmart to get the
cheapest spray bottle for flux. We are very inconsistant about our
attitutes. I would try buy all american merchandise but really it is
no longer possible to do and not just because of the prices.

Ardetta Bronson

It appears to me that the “developing” part of a developing nation
comes at considerable sacrifice over some time. Always has. If it was
easy they would all be developed nations. I suspect we will be better
served to respect the process (hard parts and all) and with our
buying power get them beyond child labor and uncontrolled pollution
faster than if we withhold our money. Took us here in the USA long
enough. Why expect everybody else to get there faster than we did ?
Just because we are there now? I think not. try looking at how fast
the quality of life is improving overall. That’s a better measure of
how close a nation is to more progressive industry.

Daniel Ballard

Sadly, WalMart gets us coming and going. My son and daughter-in-law
both work for Lifetime Products, they make tables and basketball
standards and other fun stuff. My neighbor started working for them
when they were literally being run out of the owner’s garage. It is a
much, much larger company now. WalMart is probably one of their
largest customers and yes, they do have to meet the ridiculous price
strictures that WalMart sets. If they went against WalMart, and
didn’t sell to them, then lots of people here would be without a job.
My son and his wife still actively protest when new WalMarts try to
come in.

I was excited when I heard WalMart was coming to Utah after having
lived in Texas and loving shopping there. But their “recent” policy
of having one on every corner is INSANE! I think in the past every
corporation who has tried to expand like that has imploded. I just
can’t see where it is good business practice, because of their
putting other businesses out of business it HAS to eventually put
them out of business. I guess we just hold on for the ride, and hope
to keep our heads above water.

Kerry
CeltCraft Beads & Jewelry

I don’t think I am guilty of “revisionist history.” Our economy,
like most, was originally farm-based and small, family trade or
business-based. In these situations, the whole family worked. The
sweat shops were in most cases, built on immigrant labor drawn here
by the expectation of better conditions–like the Irish migration
brought on by the potato blight and famine. These immigrants were
certainly exploited initially. Because the US had a growing economy,
the demand for labor grew as well and families were more able to make
ends meet without sending the kids to work and to send them to school
instead. And without doubt that was better in the long run for them
and the county. Of course, there were changes in laws to make child
labor and the many abuses of workers illegal, but these laws never
would have been possible if economic conditions did not allow it.
Many third world countries have laws about child labor and worker
exploitation, but if families are starving, do you think they are
able to be enforced? That is why it is important to keep restrictions
on business from bringing growth to a stop here.

Linda

It would make your hair curl if you knew who was really at the
bottom of the support for these places

Interesting report, Marc. If you “know who is really at the bottom”,
why not say? My hair can take it.

Noel

Linda,

You are revising history again. The reason that families here were
able to make more money was because of the formation of unions that
forced the owners to change the work conditions they suffered under.
The laws prohibiting child labor and bad working conditions came
about after this. While you might say that economic growth indirectly
made this happen by leading to the organization of unions, in reality
it was because the working class did, in fact, rise up and rebel
against the working conditions. I know many of you today have
negative feelings about unions, but the reality is that they were the
reason we got a 40 hour work week and raised the level of pay to what
it has become. Perhaps those of you who are suffering from reduced
wages (due to the downward pressure applied by fat cats like the
owners of Wal Mart) might want to reconsider your feelings on
unions.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

I’m in the ‘jewelry state’ or RI and I shop at walmart, BUT only for
things like toothpaste, paper towel, greeting cards, dog bones, fish
food, etc. I don’t buy anything manufactured or electronics unless I
can’t help it. However, the walmart has already driven anyone else
that might have sold the same items out of business. All we have is
a walmart. Basically we have a super stop and shop, a walmart, a
bunch of places to eat, and some video rental stores. Oh yea, the
home depot put the little hardware stores out of business. Maybe
instead of being completely against walmart, we should be against
’big store/corporation’ killing any kind of 'local/home grown’
business. I wonder if there was a bigger sense of ‘community’ it
would be supported but it seems that everyone has an 'individual’
mindset and support their own needs only (generally speaking).

I’ve read in courses that the eastern countries have more of a
’group’ mindset and are more interested in the ‘whole’ than the
individual (I’m not speaking first hand so correct me if I’m wrong).
The more I see the more I believe that this is part of the problem
with the USA. We only come together if it’s ‘nationalism’ (I refrain
from the term patriotic).

Any thoughts?

Craig