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HAFIXS glue as stone setting assist


#1

Hi

bought some Hafixs professional German made glue to restore a
porcelain piece. My very long dead grandmother a professional
porcelain restorer in England used egg white, but it can discolour
over time.

I was told it is used by gem setters to hold a faceted stone in
place in a bezel setting for first 4 pushes.

After stone is set glue is dissolved in acetone.

When I began bezel setting faceted stones, used to use cyanoacrylate
aka super glue. This was a couple of decades ago. I found it annoying
having to soak the piece in acetone to remove the residue. Also some
times it showed in the setting. And sometimes glued the stone before
it was properly seated.

Then I bought a diamond setting manual and had more classes. Learnt
to make better bezels and take greater care with the setting.

And stopped using it. Also learnt to cut very neat and even seats for
the stones.

It could be useful to hold very fragile faceted stones in place but
I don’t set these, having broken a few natural emeralds.

I don’t use faceted stones that cannot be 'snapped/tapped/pushed’
into the bezel setting. Keeping within my skill set.

Depending on the resilience of the stone I use .5 mm fine silver or
22 kt or fine gold up to.8 mm sterling or 18 kt.

I have found fine silver, 22 kt or fine gold good for opals.

So what do you top gun setters think of using glue? Is it crap or is
it legit? I know a lot of people use some form of glue aka jewellers
setting cement. Have they made a crap bezel setting or what?

Anyone out there used Hafixs?
Richard


#2

Hi Richard, I often make large rings from tumbled gemstomes and grind
the flat surface as best as possible on a diamond wheel, if it means
taking too much off the stone and there is still a slight movement in
the setting I use araldite adhesive to hold the stone until I push
over the bezel. I see nothing wrong with this as these rings/pendants
are fun things and only cost $20-$30. We must not take ourselves to
seriously.

DONNIE
www.silver-n-things.co.uk


#3

No glue. Never ever. Unless repairing an inlay piece.

Have fun and make lots of jewelry.

Jo Haemer
timothywgreen.com


#4

I don’t use glue as a setting aid and I used to think it was a
garbage practice. I have since learned differently as a couple of
setters I know that really are good use glue all the time to
stabilize stones in their seats.

I use good old fashioned beeswax. Glue just seems too hard to get
rid of later. But hey, whatever works! I’ll never argue with a
procedure that produces a superior result, whether it works for me or
not. And I’ve seen some pretty superior stone setting done by folks
that use glue to hold things in place while they do their thing. So
give it a try. Let us know what you find!

Dave Phelps


#5

I for one, never even thought of using any kind of glue. I use the
method of raising a little Onglette #1 graver wire-hooks, or little
beads inside of the channel setting opening. These little ‘hooks’ sit
right inside of the bearing groove and right on top of the girdle of
the stone. When the channel wall is hammered over, that little bead
is never seen again! For Oval bezels or even Gypsy-settings, glue is
a definite no-no! I wouldn’t show it, or even give any student that
kind of option to use. it’s a cheap way out!


#6

No. Glue. Ever. Not even as a student.

Michelle


#7

I only use two part epoxy behind opals or other soft stones set in
bezels. Not to hold the stone in place but to give it a very solid
backing that conforms to every little bump or dip in the stone. In
40 years I have never had acustomer bring back a piece with a broken
stone. Repolishing is done in thering.


#8

What about use of glue to hold a half-drilled cultured pearl on a
mounting? Say, a pearl earstud?


#9

Well said Vernon that was exactly the point I was trying to make, I
would never use clue on a claw or tube setting. DONNIE


#10

I think maybe there’s a little misunderstanding, probably on my
part. I thought that the OP was concerning the use of glue to hold
stones in place while setting, not instead of setting. You know,
to keep them from shifting or rattling while the metal is moved into
place. When all or most of the setting work is finished, the glue is
removed. So Richard, the answer to your question that started with:

I was told it is used by gem setters to hold a faceted stone in
place in a bezel setting for first 4 pushes.
After stone is set glue is dissolved in acetone. 

I would say, yeah it’s legit. I’ve seen it done more with pave’ and
channel setting, though. The glue is not used to hold the stones
permanently, it’s used to stabilize them during setting. It is used
just like wax, only it’s stronger. It seems like it would be harder
than wax to get rid of later, but I see no problem at all with using
that procedure, if it works for you.

But as to the question of whether one should glue a stone into a
bezel as the primary or even secondary means of permanently securing
it, of course not. I have to add though, that sometimes it’s a
necessary evil. I think most if not all goldsmiths that have been
doing repair and restoration work for some time would have to admit
to using a little epoxy to keep an old cameo from rattling, or
something like that at least once in a while. Doesn’t make it the
right way to do it, it’s just one of those little cheats you have to
resort to from time to time when repairing old jewelry on a limited
budget. I think the customer should be made aware of any such
"cheats" and why they were necessary in any case, though. A parallel
thought from John D’s thread on quality.

Dave Phelps


#11

I just never made the effort to resort to this method. But I was
tempted, if in doubt I would resort to a wax securing method.
Thesedays I suppose anything can be used, only if it is to assist the
setter. Cleaning might be a problem, but we are all engineers and we
can overcome these little hurdles.

Am typing this email on a bus to Wiscosin! So excusebany mistakes.
Gerry!


#12

I do use beeswax all the time for this. But as a side note, I am in
the process of doing a ring that is going to have a 3 ct oval
emerald bezel set. Does anyone know a safe method of removing the
wax from an emerald one set?

Steve


#13

I’m not apposed to it, but personally I’ve never used any adhesive
or wax when setting (other than gluing pearls or the occasional
inlay). It seems a little unnecessarily messy to me, but whatever
works for you. One trick that I do like to use, particularly when
channel setting baguettes or princess cuts, is to pull a narrow
rubber band down across the stones in the channel as I use a hammer
hand-piece to lay the channel wall over. It does a nice job of
holding the stones in place.


#14

Thank you Mark!

This is first honnest answer, I’m sorry if I mist another one.

I'm not apposed to it, but personally I've never used any adhesive
or wax when setting (other than gluing pearls or the occasional
inlay).

I realy wonder how even the very best amongst us are setting pearls
or using inlayed stones without glue.

Big pearls can be set without glue but small ones?

For the ones with a very particular vision, I know this subject is
about glue and stones.

Pearls are not stones-)


#15

Dear Steve,

Hot water will do it. Alcohol bath afterwards to clean up.

Michael Knight


#16

When I took setting at New Approach School, Blaine issued each of us
one Jolly Rancher. We were instructed to suck it just until it got
gooey, then put it back on its wrapper. The resulting sticky sugar
syrup could be used to hold stones even on a curved surface, for
layout (table down), and easily removed. I don’t think we used
anything to anchor stones during setting besides a thumb nail, but
I’m thinking the same trick could work.

Noel


#17
I thought that the OP was concerning the use of glue to hold stones
in place *while* setting, not *instead of* setting. You know, to
keep them from shifting or rattling while the metal is moved into
place. When all or most of the setting work is finished, the glue
is removed... 

That’s what I thought the OP was asking as well.

I use beeswax when setting lots of little faceted diamonds or when I
channel set diamonds.

I set up the stones in the settings as I want them to be, cut off
little snippets of wax, and flame them with a butane cigarette
lighter and let the wax flow.

Then when it cools I set the stones.

To get the wax out I place the piece in my heated ultrasonic and let
it buzz.

This does two things: It gets most of the wax off, and it tests my
settings to insure the stones aren’t going to fall out.

Usually I have to go back and replace the few that always fall out.

After the second go 'round, if they all stay in, I blast 'em with my
steam cleaner and pray none shoot out and force me to go crawling
around on the floor in search of any of 'em.

I just use as little wax as possible.

I used to use glue but it’s a big pain in the ass what with acetone
and all…

As to using my thumbnail, if I didn’t bite the dang thing off, I’d
prefer that method (I think). It looks good but alas, I’ll never
know.

As so gluing cabs, sometimes you just have to add some glue. Depend
on the piece. I do mostly repairs to-the-trade and some of the
pieces I get are very old and have been “set” with glue in the first
place.

I tell my customers if glue was used. They mostly don’t usually
care.

Paf Dvorak


#18

with “neat and even seats” that you are cutting, using soft metals
(.999 and 22 kt.) and refusing to use "faceted stones that cannot be
’snapped / tapped / pushed’ into the bezel setting " why is it
necessary to use any adhesive? If the metals are annealed and you
have a grasp of the processes it seems like you should only be
considering a bit of wax or a drop of cement with very irregular
cuts in tricky settings (i. e. a satellite cut, and even then where
would you put an adhesive at all?). However, If, considering I read
correctly, you don’t want to soak anything in acetone, MEK, or other
solvents, that leaves the waxes, gums and cements that can be
evacuated with heat. only when necessary and when a piece of tape
won’t do!. .Pretty easy and any residues are easily cleaned up, it
helps protect the table from slips and is similar to basic
gypsy/flush setting process when using softer material. rer


#19

Hi RE et al

why is it necessary to use any adhesive I haven’t used glue for 20
years, since I learnt to cut seats properly for faceted stones. That
took some practice.

I find high magnification x4 glasses good for this. I also find the
quick change foredom hand piece gives less vibration/easier to use
then the one with the chuck. I use wintergreen oil as the lubricant.

For opals usually doublets or triplets especially the badly cut
ones, which are mostly sold in tourist shops, or cut by the
inexperienced.

I use .8 mm fine silver square wire to make the seat. Make the bezel
and then fit wire to the shape of the bezel.

For odd shaped stones I roughly form the wire to fit the bezel,
leaving some overlap. Put stone face down place bezel over stone fit
wire to fit the uneven back of the stone. Solder wire on one side.
Use pliers etc to get wire to fit bezel and stone trim overlap and do
final fit and solder.

NOTE I do not buy doublets or triplets IMHO they are crap as they
can delaminate in water. BUT I WILL SET THEM FOR CLIENTS, THEY CAN
LOOK GOOD, IN FACT I HAVE SEEN SOME THAT LOOK INCREDIBLE.

HOWEVER I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT IF GLUED WITH HAFIX THE WILL NEVER
DELAMINATE UNLESS SOAKED IN ACETONE.

BUT HOW DO I KNOW WHAT GLUE HAS BEEN USED?

Also with solid opals in rings, I have rarely see one set correctly.
They need a protective surround so they cannot be knocked and
shattered. If you make one like that without the protective surround
and the customer cracks it I think it is the designer’s/maker’s
fault. The piece should never have been made.

Richard from Oz the land of opals.


#20

Hi everybody. I don’t know if this idea has been spoken of so far,
but when I set stones, like say something that’s a bit treacherous
to set, I focus on making sure there’s as much equal uniform contact
on the seat as possible. Which is hard to see. So I use a product
called, “Seat Check”. I know Rio Grand carries it, maybe Stuller
does too.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep80ub

Let’s say I’m setting a large faceted emerald in a crown in a custom
design. When I think I’ve got everything dialed in as far as the
stone being set level, straight and such, it is then that I spray
the Seat Check inside the crown area, and then place the stone back
in the crown and press gently down and around. After then stone is
removed, you will find probably a variety of highlighted contact
points the faceted junctuions left behind as they made contact with
the metal. Taking the correct burr, feather down only those
highlighted contact points away. Put stone back in and check fit. it
will likely be more snug in it’s seat. Pull out stone and repeat the
sprayong, place stone back in, press down gently and finger rock
gently to make sure the impression is quality, remove stone and you
will find that the previous highspoty contact points have changed.
Feather only those away with a burr and recheck fitting again.

Do this as often as it takes for you to “see” the improvement of
equal distibution of a flusher fit on the underbezel, and/or better
fitting where the prongs are, because there can be premature contact
points there too.

I try to envision the stone maling a nice flat flush relatively
relaxed scenario. As the porngs come down and load pressure on the
stone, the pressure is then more equally distributed. This makes for
a much safer process, a better end result, and helps the Mind’s Eye
"see" what’s going on under the stone.

This method is just like what the dentist dioes when they try to
make sure that teeth are making proper contact without high spots.
But they use a paper impregnated with powder, have you tap your
teeth a few times, pull out the paper, and they easily “see” the
high points, feather them away, and voila!, perfect uniform contact
minimzing further tooth problems/dangers.

fwiw, I often deal with very valuable stones daily, and with the
bigger stones if I have any doubts with what’s going on, I will use
the Seat Check to make sure I’m as aware as can be with the focused
task at hand.

I don’t know how many years ago I started using a product like this.
maybe 15-20? But ever since I started to use it on scary stones, or
obscenely expensive stones, stone setting damage has pretty much
disappeared wntirely.

fwiw, I do not use glue to hold stones in place while setting.

Proper fitting in all regards, is the rule… Proper control of
your tooling, AND proper choice of your tooling is the rule.

of course, gluing pearls on pegs and such, is another matter.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep80ub

be well,
Marko