Good quality stones at a good price?

Sali,

I have to agree with what you are saying and I have increasingly been
using American dealers and independent cutters for my gem material
(you know that !), although at the moment I have more gems than I can
use. I’d like to sell off a lot of my stones (most of them good ones)
and use the cash to buy fewer stones of higher quality. I’m one of
those buyers who’s ready to “upgrade”. Still, there are a couple of
eBay dealers in Chanthaburi (father and son, actually) that I have
found to be honest and reliable, and who provide me with good quality
material. They may start all of their eBay listings at $ 0.99, but
the good stuff climbs in price quickly. I’m often outbid, so I just
buy off their website at fixed price. That said, I’ve found most of
the rest of the Thai dealers on eBay to be scheisters (Pennsylvania
Dutch term, maybe shysters to the rest of you), especially the ones
based in Bangkok. As for dealers in India, Pakistan, or China -
forget it. Some are just plain crooks. I’ve gotten into tangles with
a couple of the crooks and won (i.e. I got the auction transactions
cancelled and some of their listings cancelled). Where I live, the
Internet has to be my primary source for material, as there are no
local sources. To find wholesalers I’d have to make the drive into
New York (God forbid), and there, once again, I’m faced with
separating the honest dealers from the snakes. So the problem exists
here too.

Brian

As an aside to other Orchidians, you might want to e-mail Sali for
her eBay ID and check out her gem listings. Great stuff at great
prices from a dealer with lots of experience and knowledge.

Ebay has been hit and miss for me. I have been ripped off and not
been able to get back money I lost on several occassions. A lot of
this is due to the issue of misleading pictures and Ebay’s poor
customer service in helping people to track down their money. If you
do not want to lose your shirt, I do not recommend Ebay and instead
recommend buying from a dealer you know and trust.

They buy mostly 2nd and 3rd quality stones from larger cutting
houses and promote these with starting prices of $1.00 US. 

Part of the issue is that there is a HUGE markup for even the 2nd and
3rd quality stones in the US. I know many people would be willing to
pay top dollar for a 1st quality stones, but many dealers are not
selling that. Furthermore, there are a lot of customers who want
fashionable jewelry and are not willing to pay for a first quality
stone, but would pay for jewelry with a 2nd or 3rd quality stone if
it was reasonably-priced. For instance, the stones that I prefer are
teardrop briolettes that are side-drilled. I have learned that the
dealers basically are paying 1/10th to 1/20th of the price for the
items that they are selling to me. Therefore, I understand why the
original poster started this thread. Anyone who wants to sell jewelry
as a business needs to cut costs and one way to do this is to find
dealers who will charge fair prices for their stones. I really hope
that more people respond to the original posters request with actual
names and contact of people we can get in touch with.
Please feel free to email me off-listserv if you prefer to
communicate that way.

Hello Orchidians,

I have been pleased with the stones purchased from Ahmed Shareek
[crescentgems.com] They have been exactly as described and are good
value. Ahmed has been an Orchid supporter for years, and worked with
those wanting to give meaningful help with recovery in Sri Lanka
after the devistation from the tsunami.

No association other than being a satisfied customer,

Judy in Kansas

and instead recommend buying from a dealer you know and trust.

Particularly if you are going to resell the stone!

Nobody wants to overpay, but really, what’s the problem with paying
a fair price? My stone suppliers are crucial to my business, I want
them to want to sell me again. They give me memo, they give me terms,
they give me return privilege. And, most importantly they give me
honest representation of the stone. The service is well worth the
price. But how does a new jeweler develop a relationship? Baby steps.
Order something, pay it promptly, order again and again. Show a track
record that gives the dealer confidence in you, after awhile ask for
something a little bit more valuable on memo. Whether it sells or not
report in a timely way. Who to buy from? Referrals will get you
started. Over time you should try to develop several sources. Take
care of them and they will take good care of you.

Ebay is wonderful if you know what you are getting without a picture
(i.e., Swarovsky crystals in a certain ab color). But for stones, I
would never buy from a photograph, no matter how good the warranty
is. I have come to believe that nothing can be believed for what is
seen, even photographs, especially photographs on the computer.
(Sadly, I’m getting the same opinion about the news these days.) But
I have been very successful with ebay as far as beads or brass
stampings and most other items. I just wouldn’t trust it for
something where the value to me is in the color and cut and clarity,
etc., especially color and depth.

2 cents
V.

Annabel,

I have learned that the dealers basically are paying 1/10th to
1/20th of the price for the items that they are selling to me.
Therefore, I understand why the original poster started this
thread. Anyone who wants to sell jewelry as a business needs to
cut costs and one way to do this is to find dealers who will charge
fair prices for their stones 

I am not too sure about the mark up you have mentioned above.
However, the dealers can get excellent prices because they buy
thousands of carats on a regular basis. After that, they assort the
stones, stock huge inventories and supply the relevant qualities in
the required quantities whenever the demand arises. Thus, the dealers
buy huge quantities, shoulder all the risk and the prices they pay
have to account for the fickle nature of the business. We are talking
BIG BUCKS here.

In contrast, you would buy stones as per demand and, in addition,
you would buy a only few carats. Therefore, the risk at your end is
not much. As you know, business is a lot about ensuring that your
risks are covered. Perhaps, that is why dealers are not willing to
offer stones below a certain price.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Rasesh
Mumbai, India.

I seriously doubt that most reputable dealers are paying anything
like 5% of the asking price for their stones. More likely 20-50%, the
better the stone the steeper the wholesale. If you’re getting stones
from dealers who pay only 5% of what they charge you, you’re probably
getting low quality stones or stones that have been “tinkered” with
from questionable dealers.

Brian Corll
Brian Corll, Inc.
1002 East Simpson Street
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055

I agree (as someone who cuts stones). If I could get sapphire rough
for 5% of my cost to sell I’d be loving it! That’s like saying if
I’m selling a 1c sapphire for $500 (just an example) then I bought
the stone for $25 which is about what the rough MIGHT cost if you
can get it from a dealer at the mine. This doesn’t take into account
the cutting time, cost to ship it from A to B, or any of the other
factors that are part of doing business.

Craig
www.creativecutgems.com

Hi Annabel,

I’d like to add something to what Rasesh said, earlier. When you
assume that dealers are paying “1/10th to 1/20th of the price”, you
are only part right, but the value of that part dwindles,
substantially, when held up to the broad light of business expenses.
For example, let’s just say for a moment that you’re right – that
the dealers may are paying somewhere near 5% of what they’re charging
you for their. The way that this happens is if they’re buying these
gems in_the_rough, and then cutting them! So let’s look at that
scenario, and put a realistic “face” on it: a piece of rough
Rhodolite Garnet. The dealer buys a 10ct. chunk of Rhodolite as part
of a parcel, and pays, let’s say, $1.50/ct for it. He then takes it
to his friend, the lapidary, who grinds off all protrusions, bits of
matrix (the garnet’s original bedrock), major internal flaws and
cracks, and shapes it into what’s called a “preform”, which now has
an outline of approximately 9.6x7.7mm and an oval shape. The stone is
then dopped and faceted into an eye-clean, calibrated 9x7 mm oval,
which weighs a little over 2 carats. If the finished gem was be cut
in Asia or Brasil, the labor for this task has cost less than two
dollars, but if it has been cut in the United States or Europe, you
can multiply that figure by anywhere from 20 to 30, to adjust for the
vastly better make and costs of production.

Okay, now let’s look at those markup assumptions again, as well as
your comments about “fair pricing”… The stone “only” cost your
dealer $1.50/ct, when he first bought it. But does that mean that the
finished stone cost him $1.50/ct.? No, not by a long shot! It also
cost him the labor to have it cut, the 7.5-8 cts of material lost in
the cutting process (times the same $1.50/ct.), the interest he had
to pay on the financing needed to buy the large parcel of rough from
which that piece came, in the first place, the costs of postage (or
other courier fees) to and from the lapidary shop, and the overhead
– including insurance, salaries, a percentage of the rent or
mortgage of the building in which it was housed, the utility bills
for that building, and dozens of other incidental expenses that come
with operating a business, which you may also have overlooked. Add to
this that the costs of gem roughs have been skyrocketinging –
sometimes increasing 60-100% in just a year, as Malaya and Mint
Garnets recently did – such that dealers have had to adjust their
prices upwards with market trends, if they are to afford to replace
their raw materials inventories, following each finished gem’s sale.
(That is, if the materials in question are even available, as gem
mines are unknown quantities, and many of them have recently emptied,
never to produce another gem!) In the end, that $1.50/ct investment
has cost him or her a minimum of $15 for the untouched stone, plus
anywhere from $2-60 for the labor of cutting it, etc., etc., etc.

And, at the end of all this, as Rasesh has already pointed out, the
gem dealer’s met with you, a buyer who only wants to buy two of these
and a couple of those, and wants both “bargain basement” prices and
the ability to pay for it with a credit card, which eats another
2.5-4% of his gross (and thus, a substantially greater percentage of
his bottom line profits.

So, with all due respect Annabel, now that you have a slightly more
global view of the gem market, about what price would you say is
"fair", given all of that? And, just as importantly, “fair” to whom?

Best regards,
Doug
Douglas Turet, G.J.,
Turet Design, LLC
P.O. Box 242
Avon, MA 02322-0242

Doug. Thanks for this advice. I am not begrudging them the prices
that they are charging – they have every right to charge what they
want. Viva capitalism! But capitalism also means that people are able
to make choices about who and were they want to buy from.

I have a good enough relationship with some of the dealers that some
of them and their employees have even told me that all of their
stones are cut in the Far East. Yes they do have overhead and I
respect this, but they are not paying the labor costs that you are
talking about for the stones to be cut. A lot of jewelry designers
that I have met are aware of this and they tell me that as a result,
they travel to source their gems.

There is one dealer in particular, who is well-known and is so
expensive that OTHER DEALERS and designers have told me to stay away
from that dealer. That is what I am referring to when I talk about
"fair prices." When your prices are so out of what the market is
charging that even others in your industry warn others to stay away.
I have had multiple people tell me about this dealer, so it is not
as if competitors were just trying to bring the dealer down. The
advice was given more in the vein of kind people who were trying to
give good advice to someone who was just starting out.

Bravo Doug. And the same applies to non precious stones. Those that
one can buy for $1.50 or $2.00 a stone are most likely cut from
mundane material with little or no character, cut with an automatic
machine which can cut 1000 stones a week, they are then tumble
polished and probably dyed somewhere along the way as well. Compare
those with hand selected rough that is cut by hand by someone who has
been cutting for 20 or 30 years, hand polished, and completely
natural and you have a vastly different kind of stone. It takes
somewhere around 30 to 40 minutes to cut a common 22x30 jasper cab.
But that does not include finding the rough, shipping it, slabbing
it, slecting the best, etc. So the same applies. It takes time, money
and talent to produce good quality stones whether faceted or cabbed.
So the next time you (no particular person understand) balk at the
price of a stone, take another look at it…a very close look.

Cheers from Don at The Charles Belle Studio in SOFL where simple
elegance IS fine jewelry!

It’s a choice… if you want to sell Ferrari’s you get the good
stuff, if you want to sell Yugo’s you buy the cheap stuff.

Here’s an example between the quality of cuts. As we know
proportions, cut, and angles of facets is what makes brilliant
stones, NOT cutting for carat weight which is what 99% of the
commercial market does (I’m not even going to go into the polishing
portion!).

http://www.creativecutgems.com/comcut.asp

Craig
www.creativecutgems.com

Hi Don:

Those that one can buy for $1.50 or $2.00 a stone are most likely
cut from mundane material with little or no character, cut with an
automatic machine which can cut 1000 stones a week, they are then
tumble polished and probably dyed somewhere along the way as well. 

I have a question that I have been hesitant to ask…When looking
at the work of artists who are exhibiting in the big shows like the
Washington Craft Show…what types of stones would they be using?
There’s really not a way that I could tell on my own (I am not
educated in that area to be able to tell a good stone from a much
better stone) and if I go to the show and ask the artist, you know
how that’s going to go.I would like to exhibit (someday) next to the
big guys. I went to a local dealer a couple months ago and bought
some small cabs to practice setting, but I paid so small of an amount
that I doubted I was getting anything good. If it’s beads, I can hold
my own…I get taken once in a while, but I generally know what I am
buying. With stones, I am feeling a bit lost all over again. I know
that is a sensitive subject. I have great respect for the stone
cutters on the list. I don’t want to step on any toes here.

Thanks for any advice
Kim

It's a choice.. if you want to sell Ferrari's you get the good
stuff, if you want to sell Yugo's you buy the cheap stuff. 

I completely agree with you. Your stuff is beautiful and if I were
selling Ferraris, I would definitely get your stuff. When I upgrade
to Ferraris, I will definitely invest in custom cut gems and pay the
right amount of money. However, I know myself and my market and it
is not Ferraris, at least not right now. I really admire your work
and completely respect all of the lapidarists and gem dealers and all
that they have to invest in their products. It’s only until recently
when people clued me in that I realized that I had been paying three
times the price for Yugos and that’s why I posted what I did.

Here's an example between the quality of cuts. As we know
proportions, cut, and angles of facets is what makes brilliant
stones 

As far as diamonds (and only diamonds) are concerned, here’s how it
works: To this day, DeBeers controls the diamond marketplace. The
Canadians, the Russians and the Australians all have agreements with
DeBeers, as of now. So, DeBeers holds “Sights”. Last I heard, there
were just over 100 sightholders, way less than in the past. They are
invited to come, they are given a parcel, and they are required to
buy it (if they want to come back). By DeBeers policy, everybody pays
the same price, meaning D colors are the same, First Pique is the
same, etc. So, diamonds all cost the same price at the source. Then
they go home, and they resell what they don’t want to 3rd parties,
and cut what they do want. Again, this being a world economy, that
means they are essentially the same price - all those dealers, being
competitive, are selling for more-or-less the same markup, paying
their cutters more-or-less the same pay, etc. Traditionally, New York
has been the cutting center for large, fine goods, Belgium is the
same and also fine smaller cuts, Israel does fancy shapes a lot, and
India cuts the stuff they sweep off the floors in the other shops
(that’s just reality). So, since all diamonds essentially cost the
same price (not just theory, it’s true in a general way), if you are
confronted with a $4000/ct. stone, and a $2,500/ct. stone of the same
weight, color and clarity, is it a bargain? Is somebody donating a
diamond to you because you are such a great person? Are you the most
savvy shopper on Earth? No, it’s in the cut. In all probability it’s
what we call an “Off Make”. Often the stone might look fine at a
glance (skillful bad cutting), but then you’ll see the culet is off
center, or the table is, or the table won’t be parallel to the
girdle,
sometimes a lot. None of the facet edges will meet up, all the points
of them will be all over the place. There are many more examples, but
you get my point. You don’t have a bargain, although occasionally you
do, you are getting exactly what you are paying for. If that’s OK
with you, then that’s OK. Just don’t kid yourself. My advise to
people wanting stones is - don’t buy the bad $2,500 1/2 carat, buy a
nice $2,500 40 pointer, they’ll be happier…

Craig,

NOT cutting for carat weight which is what 99% of the commercial
market does (I'm not even going to go into the polishing
portion!). 

I don’t know how you can make such a sweeping statement. Buying by
the carat weight seems to be the most common way to buy gem quality
beads. I am part of a bulk buy at the moment, our beads are coming
from a company in India. They describe the weight of beads in carats.
The hostess who is buying on behalf of us is very experienced, and
told me that this company’s gems are the best she’s ever seen -
better than commercial quality.

Morna

Hi, Morna,

NOT cutting for carat weight which is what 99% of the commercial
market does (I’m not even going to go into the polishing portion!).

I don't know how you can make such a sweeping statement. Buying by
the carat weight seems to be the most common way to buy gem
quality beads. 

If you re-read the segment of Craig’s post you quoted, you may
notice that he said “cutting for weight”, not “selling by weight”.
That means cutting the stones in a way that maximizes how much each
one weighs, instead of cutting the facets at the angles that will
produce the most brilliant and beautiful stone. The most common
example of this is cutting the pavilion, or lower portion of the
stone, with a bulging “belly” instead of the almost-straight shape
that is preferable. Not only does this cut down on “light return”
which one nearly always wants to maximize, but it makes the stone
much harder to set because there is no real girdle. But it increases
weight and lowers waste, so it is very common in poorly-cut stones.

I don’t believe he was talking about beads at all…

Noel

I didn’t say buying/selling isn’t done by carat weight. I said that
commercial fasters cut for maximum carat weight as opposed to
maximum brilliance in the finished gemstone. This is why many
gemstones on the market have major ‘fish eye’ and/or dark spots (bow
tie). If you need an example just look at the stuff Jewelry
Television sells.

I don’t know anything about beads so I can’t make any comments on
them.

Craig
www.creativecutgems.com