Gemesis laboratory grown diamonds

    However I can't for the life of me see how being guaranteed
that a product you bought would go up in value at, or about, the
rate of inflation every year is a bad thing. 

This is a fallacy. “Used” jewelry is seldom “worth” what the
original buyer paid for it - eg, if someone wants to sell her diamond
engagement ring, she’s not going to get anywhere near the price that
was originally paid for it.

Also, even older jewelery is often not worth what as much as one
might hope for. Cutting styles go out of fashion, and the gem is now
considered much less valuable.

Jewelry is not an “investment”. It’s something pretty to wear.

Of course, if you’re getting into the nosebleed realm of
Elizabeth-Taylor-style jewelry, its a different story. But that’s
not what we’re talking about here, is it? The top 1% of jewelry
doesn’t set the pace for the 99% of jewelry that most folks own.

Sojourner

... I just simply find the negative message presented about some of
our products to be self defeating .... 

Daniel, I can understand your position on this. I happen to look at
it a little differently, perhaps because, as you’ve pointed out, I
don’t do retail. My customers come to me through friends, word of
mouth, people at parties, etc. I’m beginning to understand that
doing business that way puts me in touch with a whole different kind
of customer and, as I’ve said, not one of them has ever assumed that
I’m associated with any other jeweller in any way. They see us all
as free-lancers and expect us to have widely varying skills and
abilities. Yes, of course they are often misinformed too, but they’re
seldom hostile or aggressive about it.

    Anyway, I fear we are boring the general reading Orchid public
with this discussion .... 

Doubtlessly true. I think I’ve been pretty clear about my position
on this as have you. Perhaps it’s best left there as you’ve
suggested.

Which sort of brings up an interesting point. Through the course of
this discussion I’ve spent some amount of time puzzling over your
position on these issues and trying to decide if you are simply a
difficult person with an axe to grind and an income to protect or, as
I think I’ve now realized, we’re talking to each other from virtually
opposite corners of our trade. Two different worlds really.

Would be retailers and diamond re-sellers would no doubt be best
advised to read closely what you have had to say and note it well.
The thoughts I expressed in the course of this discussion would
probably be quite useless to them.

However, I am neither a retailer nor a diamond seller and seriously
doubt I ever will be. My customers are not retail customers and I
strongly suspect they are looking for quite different things than
yours are. I’m sure I couldn’t hope to satisfy your customer’s
requirements and I daresay mine wouldn’t be talking to me if the type
of work you do was what they were looking for. Mine want silver and
lots of it, yours are going to be looking at much higher end stuff
with the stones to go with it. Mine are going to spend a few hundred
at a go (at best!) where yours will start somewhere in the thousands.

This difference in perspective seems to have a huge effect on how we
see the business we’re in and what we have to say about it. It’s as
if you own the mall and I run a vegetable stand at the Sunday market.
That’s probably pretty close to the truth of it but, like I’ve said
before, vive la difference.

And, finally, yes, enough is probably enough.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light

Dear Sojourner,

Sorry…your generalizations about older engagement rings don’t
hold water with me ! Classic designs…especially those with old
mine cut diamonds, sell much better than modern “trendy” merchandise
in my shop. And, oddly enough, those older designs are mostly
purchased by younger clients. When they are in good condition I
never pass up the opportunity to buy them. One of the reasons that
they are appreciated is that very often the intricate workmanship is
seemingly much better than anything that you will find in mass
produced goods that prevail on the modern market. As a matter of
fact, in my opinion ( and experience) on a weight for weight basis,
good pieces of older jewelry are far more salable and valuable than
contemporary jewelry. My biggest problem is that this category of
jewelry is too hard to come by !

Ron MIlls, Mills Gem Co. Los Osos, Ca.

Joel,

I remember the run up quite well but it wasn’t something sanctioned
by, created by or appreciated by de Beers. As a matter of fact, if
my recollection is correct they did quite a bit to try to stop the
run up in the market. It was fueled by a lot of stupid people and
de Beers themselves were hurt by it. If you remove that one period
of time from the equation, however, it is still true that since de
Beers took control of the marketplace the price has consistently
gone up at a slow, steady pace.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

 This is a fallacy.  "Used" jewelry is seldom "worth" what the
original buyer paid for it - eg, if someone wants to sell her
diamond engagement ring, she's not going to get anywhere near the
price that was originally paid for it. 

I was not referencing this based on a short term of ownership. I
referenced this based on someone getting married and having an
engagement ring for 25-30 years, that when a partner dies (or
whatever) you can, in fact, almost always (unless of course it was
purchased during that run up of prices in the 80’s–thanks Joel for
reminding me) end up getting back about what you paid for it. This
is particularly the case if you got a high quality diamond to begin
with. My other point was that almost anything else you buy that you
get daily use out of usually ends up having no value over this kind
of time period (25-30 years) but diamonds will.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
617-234-4392

Continue from:

       I am really confused by your statement " the fact that
these lab created diamonds typically come in shades of yellow was
interpreted as being a virtue by comparing them to canary yellow
diamonds. " Fancy colored diamonds are rarer and more valuable
than Near Colorless diamonds. Synthetic diamonds are graded on the
same scale. A diamond that is Z+ yellow color IS a canary yellow
diamond, so why should it not be compared to a canary yellow
diamond, and how is that not a virtue? They are making pink and
blue diamonds as well, again - more valuable per carat, easier to
make, very marketable these days. 

Epaul,

This thread has been very emotive and many views have been made for
and against diamonds. I personally love diamonds, mainly from a
gemmological aspect mind you, and think they are unique in so many
ways, that have already been covered or touched upon in the various
posts.

I just wanted to ‘review’ one point you made about canary diamonds
in the highlighted passage above. Not all Z+ yellow diamonds should
be termed canary diamonds. Fancy, yes, but canary, no. Owing to the
distribution of nitrogen atoms in the crystal lattice only diamonds
that are of a strong yellow AND are type Ib should strictly be
referred to ask canary diamonds. I am sure I will be corrected if I
am mistaken, but that is my understanding. Most of the yellow
diamonds that exist fall into the type Ia category and this is
further divided into types IaA, IaB and IaA/B! Type I stones make up
over 95+ diamonds that exist, so you can see that TRUE canary
diamonds are really rather rare :wink:

Hope that is of interest and helps to show why diamonds are so
interesting in my opinion. There is always two sides to a
subject/discussion/debate and coin :wink:

. . . I referenced this based on someone getting married and having
an engagement ring for 25-30 years, that when a partner dies (or
whatever) you can, in fact, almost always (unless of course it was
purchased during that run up of prices in the 80's--thanks Joel
for reminding me) end up getting back about what you paid for it.  

Hi Daniel.

You say that after 25-30 years you can almost always get back about
what you paid for it. I agree that the diamond (at least
historically) will hold its value or increase in value over time
(disregarding aforementioned 80’s timeframe).

However, in order for that individual to get the money back, (s)he
would have to locate a ready market for that diamond - someplace or
some entity willing to purchase the diamond at a price both consider
fair. It may be a better idea in theory than in practice as finding a
buyer could be very difficult for most people outside our circles.

Cynically speaking this may change too, if individuals have their
stone appraised and the appraiser issues a cert to be cited with an
ebay listing of the diamond. “This diamond ring doesn’t shine for me
anymore.” Why sell wholesale (whatever that is) to a dealer when
you can sell retail to the public?

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

Have you (and the others who seem to think that Daniel Spirer is a
"high-end, mass-market-appeal" jeweler) taken the time to look at
his work??

I did, before sending my post, and found much of it innovative,
unusual, and beautiful. But I doubt you could say that it is not
“high-end” jewelry, or that it wouldn’t appeal to a wide consumer
base. The point I was trying to make was that we are not all, so
to speak, in the same tax bracket, and those of us who cannot afford
the outlay for expensive materials, etc., should not be penalized
for it.

Best,
Jessee Smith
www.silverspotstudio.com
Cincinnati, Ohio

 However, in order for that individual to get the money back,
(s)he would have to locate a ready market for that diamond -
someplace or some entity willing to purchase the diamond at a price
both consider fair. It may be a better idea in theory than in
practice as finding a buyer could be very difficult for most people
outside our circles. 

Not at all true. There are jewelers everywhere who buy diamonds and
given the history of pricing over the time period I referenced,
even if they are receiving somewhat below wholesale pricing (the
typical price paid by jewelers for older, better diamonds), they
will still get their money back.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer