Experience with knew concept power saw

Andy, have you checked that there are no blade fragments inside the
screw holes? Because of the way the mis-aligned grub screws snap the
tops of the blades, I kept finding tiny fragments inside. Once the
grub screw was adjusted, those breakages stopped, so there is now no
issue with tiny fragments.

If there is a genuine mechanical error on your frame, then you
should contact Lee directly, and see if someting can be done - if you
have a grub screw that terminates in an irregular face, for example,
then no amount of adjustment will make it right. It seems curious to
me that the biggest irritant mentioned on this discussion is the
method of securing the blade, which is the same as on many
traditional frames. The only difference between the KC and the
Vallorbe frames that we used previously is that the KC lets you
adjust the grub screw to your needs, whereas the Vallorbe frame used
the same mechanism, but done in such a way that the screw isn’t
adjustable. I would definately like to make some changes to the KC
frame, but they are very minor things. Mainly, I’d like to see a
different method of gripping the blade - I quite like the type that
uses a bolt and a square nut to hold the blade in place. Easier to
clear if you do get breakages. The KC is evolutionary, rather than
revolutionary. It’s not like switching from driving a car to having
your own personal spaceship. More like a car with an automatic gear
box and alloy hub caps.

Jamie Hall
rhttp://primitive.ganoksin.com

Hi Charlie (Charles?),

Thanks for your post. It seems that we have a very different
definition of the word “emotional”. I simply don’t see the phrase
“put off” as an emotional reaction but rather an expression of
frustration. (I did receive, however, offline communications that I
believe most readers would characterize as angry and that were
personal, directed at my character --or lack thereof. For voicing a
complaint about a product…)

The direct help that I was offered was in the form of “showing me
what I was doing wrong”. Sorry if that seems somehow overly
sensitive or even in some way emotional. While I have no problem with
being corrected in my technique or performance of a process, I do
take issue with being told that a problem with a product must be on
my end… Even if it is. It is not the way that I handle clients or
customers.

In light of the fact that many folks who own them are NOT having
the same problem, the only way to really resolve your problem is to
have the manufacturer directly check out YOUR saw frame with you,
in person. As was once offered. 

In reality, no one at Knew Concepts ever asked to look at my saw in
particular. Regardless of yours or others’ positive experience with
this product, mine (and several others who have contacted me off
list) was less so. Does “the fact that many folks who own then were
NOT having the same problem” somehow change the reality that I
experienced? There is a possibility raised by others on this forum, a
slight variation on the three possibilities that you have stated.
That is the possibility of uneven quality control. Or, to be fair,
the possibility that one snuck by. One poster stated that:

When I disassembled it and looked carefully, I found that the
drilled hole had not been deburred properly and there were some
loose shavings from the manufacturing process packed into the hole.
Once I cleaned that out, it has worked like a champ. 

Another suggested that the ends of the clamping screws in their saw
were polished or not true at the ends, slipping off the blades. Again,
the assumption that it was operator error is less than objective.

I simply do not see any deflection or real emotion, aside from
frustration in my correspondence. And, again, at the risk of
appearing emotionally deflective, I find a whiff of condescension in
your response to this thread. Do you find my questioning of a Knew
Concepts product to be some sort of heresy or an assault in some way
on Lee? Yes, I questioned whether public relations were handled well.
It was a valid question. I appreciate your effort to help me “hear”
more clearly the tone of my posts. It seems that we all can benefit
from outside observation.

Let me say, once again and for the last time, that I applaud the
contributions and innovations that Lee Marshall has made to the
field. Ditto Brian Meek (and the quality and tone of his
correspondence). But that doesn’t alter my experience or make me
question the way in which I addressed it. (Aside, of course, from my
initial mis-sending to the list. A mistake that I immediately
apologized for to Brian and Lee personally and to the list at large.)

Let’s not chew up any more bandwidth on this thread. If you must,
email me off list to continue this conversation. Thanks for your
time,

Andy (Andrew)

Andy, I am so glad you were having the discussion on Orchid about
the Knew Concept saw. I know there is something wrong with my saw. It
is not me!!! The saw blades just will not get tight enough. Now, I
think it is OK for me to send it back to be “adjusted” I think this
discussion should have been taken as constructive by Lee. I have one
of the early saws, before the red handle. When it works, I love to
saw with it, but, as it is, I waste tons of time trying to get the
blades with the correct tension. It irks me so much and it does not
put me in the proper mood to work. I never get the nice ping I should
be hearing, I have taken to pressing the frame hard against my bench
and then tighten the screw. I just don’t think I should have to do
that, one of the main points of the saw was supposed to be ease of
setting the tension. I love the weight, the balance and the way it
handles when the blade has the proper tension, but getting to that
point is just annoying. I would never do it if I were piercing and
had to re-tension the blade constantly. I know people are getting
tired of this thread, but sometimes things just need to be aired.

Linda Lankford

I have to second everything that Linda said about the Knew concept
saw. I am putting the saw blade in correctly, according to the
directions, and it takes me a good 15 minutes or more to get that saw
blade so it won’t pop out when I tighten the tension at the top. Once
I get the blade in, it is nice to saw with, but I agree that I will
not do piercing work with it, as it’s too frustrating to get the
blade to stay in.

Carey Chelenza

This has managed to wander totally off the OP topic…For the Power
Saw mentioned in the OP above:

…and for those having trouble loading their saw…there is a
tutorial on the Knew Concepts website:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/15q [PDF file]

Robyn Hawk AKA @aflyonthewall
http://dailyjewel.ganoksin.com

Earlier I had mentioned that I was having problems with my Knew
Concepts saw repeatedly breaking blades as part of the blade loading
process.

They sent me a private message with a suggestion to adjust the
backstop to the blade holder.

I just got a chance to do that and now the saw works beautifully.

... it takes me a good 15 minutes or more to get that saw blade so
it won't pop out when I tighten the tension at the top. 

I assume this is in reference to the hand-held saw frame, not the
power saw.

I have one of the earlier saws, before the cam-lock version.

The only time I’ve had trouble with a tightened blade popping out it
was due to Bur-Life falling into the lower screw area, and that was
only with a ‘Swiss style’ saw frame and 8/0 blades. A partial
solution was to not use Bur-Life. Another was to remove metal dust as
needed.

Frames like that, and Like the Knew Concept saw, clamp the blade
only between a screw end and an anvil, as opposed to the ‘German
style’ frame that clamps the blade between greater areas of metal.
With such a small contact area between screw end and anvil there is
less friction to hold a blade in. I don’t know if you could call this
a design flaw, but it certainly isn’t optimal. Use of a much thicker
screw would have been a better choice with this style of clamping.

I would suggest removing the screw that is giving trouble and
abrading the end so the contact area is rougher. You might do the
same with the anvil face, which will require unscrewing that part.

I keep the blade tightened at the top end of the saw and release the
blade at the lower end when I do piercing. I also adjusted the lower
anvil section for use with 8/0 blades, as is explained on the
website. The blades stay tight, the saw is a dream to use. It is a
real shame that not everyone is having the same experience.

Neil A.

Hi Neil,

[snip] Frames like that, and Like the Knew Concept saw, clamp the
blade only between a screw end and an anvil, as opposed to the
'German style' frame that clamps the blade between greater areas of
metal. With such a small contact area between screw end and anvil
there is less friction to hold a blade in. I don't know if you
could call this a design flaw, but it certainly isn't optimal. Use
of a much thicker screw would have been a better choice with this
style of clamping. 

Err… no.

The use of smallish screws was entirely deliberate. Believe it or
not, they actually clamp much harder than the traditional wide pad
clamps. Allow me to explain.

Picture an anvil. Better yet, picture an Indian mystic, fast asleep
on a bed of nails. We all know how this trick works: one nail, and
his entire body weight is on that one nail, (briefly) and he has a
bad night’s sleep. Spread the weight out across a whole bed of nails,
and no one nail has enough pressure on it to puncture the skin.

To bring that back to clamps, go back to picturing an anvil. Imagine
the anvil sitting on its square base. The weight of the 100 pound
anvil is spread across the 8x8 base, giving a pressure of 1.56
pounds per square inch. Not much, really. Put a string under the
anvil’s base, and you can pull it out pretty easily.

Now picture standing the anvil on the point of the horn, so that all
100 pounds is concentrated on one little point. No way you’re
pulling that string out. (assuming you find a way to keep the anvil
from falling over.)

So, going back to clamps: you’ll only get so much pressure from a
hand tightened screw. The question then becomes how much surface
area do you spread the load over? With the wide pad clamps, the load
is spread over nearly a square centimeter (100 sq/mm), and with the
KC screw clamps, it’s spread across a little more than 10 square
millimeters. So for every pound of pressure you get from the screw,
the smaller clamp gives 10 times the clamping force. (very roughly)

So, you’re correct in that there’s less area for friction to act
across, but incorrect, in that the smaller clamp generates ten times
the clamping force of a clamp with larger contact area. It nets out
that the smaller clamps hold better. There was actually a fair bit
of testing and optimizing involved in where we ended up with all
this.

As far as roughing them up, I wouldn’t. It won’t help. The screws are
grade 8, which means that they’re harder than the sawblades. If you
use a large blade, and clamp it hard, you can sometimes see dents in
the tangs of the blades. If you’re denting the blade, surface texture
won’t help.

We built testing rigs at one point to test the relative deflections
of various sawframes. Looks like we’ll have to build a rig to
demonstrate clamping power too.

By way of example, I’ve got one of the absurdly rigid 3" titanium
saws. I’ve pulled #6 blades apart with it. The clamps held on, but
the blade tore in half.

(You’ve never heard a #6 ping in high-E before either…) I’m not
sure what more we could do beyond building clamps that can hold on
for that sort of abuse.

The clamps really are a very simple mechanism. There are only three
ways they can fail.

(A) if the anvil screw gets out of position,

(B) if the blade isn’t fully seated. (Far enough back in the hole)

(C) if there’s a bit of broken blade or other debris in the hole,
interfering with the clamping action.

The most common problem we see with them is that people break a
blade, and then forget to unwind the tension knob to allow the blade
clamp to come down so that it can grab the full length of the blade.
(A subspecies of problem B) When the clamp’s far enough down, the
blade will have a slight bow to it as it sits in the loose clamps.

To troubleshoot them, in order of complexity:

(C) use a bit of compressed air to blow out the blade hole, or
perhaps unscrew the knob, and peek down into the hole with a
flashlight, to see if there isn’t some bit of crud down there
interfering with things. (This isn’t unique to KC style clamps. I’ve
had broken bits of blade hide out in traditional clamps too. It’s
just easier to see them and knock them out in open style clamps.)

(B) My trick to make sure I’m seated all the way into the back of
the blade socket (If I’m unsure) is to pull the blade out of the
socket entirely, and then close the clamp screw, so that it’s solidly
against the anvil screw. Re-insert the blade until it stops, having
bumped into the screw of the closed clamp. Then open the clamp
slightly, and you’ll feel the blade slide farther back into the clamp
(now that it can). Shove it down in there until it stops again.
You’ll have felt it go in another.170". (4.3mm) Then tighten the
clamp. Repeat with the other side if necessary. The blade stops
against the back wall of the threaded hole for the clamps.

(A) To check to see if the anvil screw’s out of position. (Rare, but
it does happen.)

Step 1: insert a large-ish sawblade into one of the clamps. (but not
the other one)

1A: tighten the clamp until you feel it bite. (not tight, just enough
to feel it biting.)

Now look at the blade. Is the loose end tilted off to one side or
the other? Or is it pretty much in line with the axis of the
sawframe?

If it’s in-line, that clamp’s fine. Check the other one.

If it’s angled off to the side, the anvil screw’s out of position.

You’ll need a 5/64 hex wrench to adjust it. (The anvil screw is the
little set screw directly opposite the normal thumb screw that you
clamp with.)

When the blade angles in the clamp like that, it normally angles
away from where the anvil screw is.

So if the loose end of the blade is angling towards the thumbscrew,
it means the anvil screw is backed off too far, and needs to be
adjusted “in” towards the thumbscrew. If it’s pointing away from the
thumbscrew, it’s in to far, and needs to be backed out.

The goal is to get it to the point where the thumbscrew locks the
blade up solidly while the blade is centered in the blade hole. When
we put them together, we end up with a wrench in the anvil screw, a
blade in the clamp, and our third hand on the thumbscrew, playing
them off against each other to get the blade centered in the hole
with the arms of the knobs in the right positions. For your purposes,
don’t worry about the knobs, just try to get the blade centered.

There are pictures of this whole process on page 3 of the sawframe
instructions, which can be downloaded heRe:
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/16a [PDF file]

Once you get the first clamp re-adjusted, test and adjust the other
one if necessary.

Hope this helps,
Regards,
Brian Meek.

I don’t get it. What is the trouble with traditional saw frames? I
haven’t see a Knew Concept saw. What am I missing?

Dennis

I don't get it. What is the trouble with traditional saw frames? I
haven't see a Knew Concept saw. What am I missing? 

Nothing wrong with traditional saw frames, but a Knew Concepts saw
seems to be better, I’ve got a couple, I showed a friend, they bought
one, showed another he’s getting one.

I bought mine due to the fact that the frame I was using was
horrible.

If you can borrow one to try you’ll probably be sold.

Regards Charles A.

Dennis, to give a short answer (and others may get there before me):
The KC frame “spine” is flat and perforated, and has very low frame
vibration - this means that a very specific type of sawblade breakage
is mitigated - the ones where the blade stalls, flexes the frame, and
breaks.That sounds minor, but as the only other type of breakage
seems to be due to operator error, it makes quite a big difference.
The discussion about the blade fastening is a bit of a sideshow, and
is very easy to rectify. Try using google images with “knew concept”.

Jamie Hall -
http://primitive.ganoksin.com

AMEN! I used to get blade ends that looked like a pretzel until I
realized I needed to lighten up on the set screw force. Now I
haven’t screwed up a blade end since then and have found it’s a
better saw than I first thought. I have no problems using or setting
up the saw these days.

Ray

AMEN! I used to get blade ends that looked like a pretzel until I
realized I needed to lighten up on the set screw force. Now I
haven't screwed up a blade end since then and have found it's a
better saw than I first thought. I have no problems using or
setting up the saw these days. 

At some point back in the early mists of this whole thread, I went
through and did the math to figure out what the difference in
clamping pressure is between the big traditional “pad” clamps that
most saws have, and the pressure supplied by the hardened screws of
our clamps. It turns out ours clamp about 10 times harder, per pound
of torque on the thumbscrew than the traditional clamps do. Which
means you don’t have to twist them nearly as tight to get a solid
bite. It might be worth experimenting with seeing how lightly you
can tighten the clamp before the blade slides out. The results might
well surprise you, and save you some wrist strain.

Regards,
Brian Meek.

The discussion about the blade fastening is a bit of a sideshow,
andis very easy to rectify. 

Thanks Jamie… As Blanche in “Streetcar Named Desire” said: I depend
upon the kindness of strangers". If my reading ofthis thread is
correct, my supporters and satisfied users far outweigh the number of
folks that refuse to take advantage of their ability to return the
saws. Only one person (about 18 months ago) requested to return their
saw, and she admitted that she simply couldn’t comprehend the words
and wanted more pictures. This has gone much longer than it deserves.
Primarily one person’s pique has fueled a diatribe way out of
proportion to its relevance. Standing on the rooftop and shouting to
the world is not the best way to get support. My five year old was
successful, but he was my son.

Lee (the saw guy)

Lee and Brian,

Thank you both for maintaining your dignity throughout this
extensive thread. Little has changed in human nature in the + 15
years I have thankfully been an Orchid member.

Change comes very painfully and fearfully for some. I doubt they
really understand how bare they become in responding from the gut
without brain in gear.

Rest assured you have gone above and beyond in responding and trying
to resolve the issues presented. I appreciate and love both of you.

Hugs,
Terrie

Hi Terrie, I hope all is well,

I was really just going to let this thread fade away but I was
surprised by the last couple of posts referring to it.

Change comes very painfully and fearfully for some. I doubt they
really understand how bare they become in responding from the gut
without brain in gear. 

In my reading of what people have written about their experiences
with the saw–the hand held version–I have seen very little that I
would characterize as fearful or thoughtless. (Although, perhaps some
people were fearful about posting their concerns on Orchid, since
they chose to email me personally rather than post on the list.)
People have been clear about their experiences and concerns about the
product and have not turned their criticism toward personalities, for
the most part.

Somehow, it seems that this has become some sort of contest between
those for and those critical of a product–either you are with us or
agin’ us…

my supporters and satisfied users far outweigh the number of folks
that refuse to take advantage of their ability to return the saws. 

…and a referendum on the maturity and character of anyone who
voices a complaint, confusion or problem with the product:

Standing on the rooftop and shouting to the world is not the best
way to get support. My five year old was successful, but he was my
son. 

I have not seen any public offer to accept returns on this product
(perhaps I missed it) or really any greater admission that there may
have been some problems either with individual saws or even (gasp)
product development. Somehow experiences either positive or negative
have become some sort of belief system that reflects on an
individual’s willingness to accept anything new.

Brian’s posts and responses have been fair and open. His
explanations have been clear and never, ever defensive. That is,
indeed, the best of Orchid.

Take care,
Andy

Andy,

So happy to hear from you. I know, understand you had a personal
issue with this product. i also know a private communication
inadvertently became public. Happens to the best of us at times.
Recovery from such a happening shows what we are really made of.

Many of us seem to agree most of the time, some of us, none of the
time. All involved here are, IMHO really great folks. I would say
that for the most part, we are OK.

I know that I care for and respect you, Lee and Brian. Sorry to see
how convoluted this has all become. Time to pass the Peace Pipe.

Hugs,
Terrie

so True Terri, especially since my original question (I am the
original poster) was about the "Knew Concepts POWER (as in electric)
saw.

Regards, gail

so True Terri, especially since my original question (I am the
original poster) was about the "Knew Concepts POWER (as in
electric) saw. 

Topics and threads morph. That’s just the way it is… I find
honest discourse, politely conducted-- whether in agreement or
not–to be invaluable.