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Eternity ring in CAD/CAM completed


#1

Please review the links of Eternity Ring pics that I designed/mfg
entirely using CAD-CAM from the pics fwd by Charles.






18KW gold
Finger size: 8.0
22 x 3.0mm CZ
CAD estimated weight = 7.05 gram
Casting, sprue removed weight= 6.80 gram
Trademark font = 0.40mm

regards, Harold Eberle
palladora.com


#2

Hi really nice!

Kapil Jain


#3
Please review the links of Eternity Ring pics that I designed/mfg
entirely using CAD-CAM from the pics fwd by Charles. 

Brilliant.

Absolutely well done and that settles that long running argument
once and for all.

Harold, you inspire me.

There is nothing I like more than having an AHA moment and seeing
the real thing in front of me with no BS attached.

meevis.com


#4

Fantastic results & ring looks great. This is just what exactly the
Cad-cam process can do.

Gerry Lewy


#5

Please note well, this is new work, derived from Leonid’s provided
images and not created from my. stl files.

It’s pretty good though. I’ll have to get mine sent off for casting
now :slight_smile:

Kindest regards Charles A.


#6

Right up front, I can’t do Harold’s ring in cad/cam or Leonid’s in
fabrication. I’m just an interested observer to this challenge. Also
right up front, Harold should be congratulated for actually doing
the work and showing his results. Also right up front, I like the
ring and think it is very attractive and stylish.

But. The challenge was to make the same ring in cad/cam, and while
it is quite lovely and is in the same style, it is not the same. To
be honest, it is nowhere near the same.Compare Leonid’s video with
Harold’s picture and the differences are immediately obvious.
Leonid’s azures are very large, with thin metal bridging the sides of
the ring, while the azures in Harold’s version are small with much
heavier metal work.Compare the prongs. Leonid’s are quite thin and
very open while Harold’s are very much heavier. I think they are
lovely and have very nice style. But they are not the same. When you
observe Leonid’s ring the stones are center stage, supported (no pun
intended) by delicate metal work. When you observe Harold’s ring you
primarily see very attractive metal work, and then small stones. Look
at the two together.

Unfortunately the QuickTime version on Leonid’s web side isn’t as
large as what you see on the DVD, but I still think the differences
are obvious even here:

http://www.ganoksin.com/ftp/Eternity-Ring1.jpg 

I am not knocking Harold’s ring. I think it has style and beauty,
with the metal work and stylish prongs taking center stage. I don’t
think it answers the question yet. Can cad/cam make the same ring,
with fine prongs and open metal work, and can it be as strong?

Neil A.


#7

Sorry, but wayy too much space between stones when finally set.

I mentioned before that often I see the problem where the cadcam
jockey has no real experience setting stones, and so, makes all
sorts of errors in predictiing the final results. A common mistake
to be found in CadCamLand.

The usual historical goal of a finely made eternity band is to have
"Little to No Space" between the diamonds, instead of a whole slew
of giant gaps between girdles in your result.

Whoever (ahem) made this piece should pull every other tooth out of
their mouth, look in the mirror, and smile. then tell us what they
see in their reflection.

after all that’s been spouted here, a disappointing rookie end
result, to say the least.

Marko


#8

Very good job. Hope you post the finished piece.


#9

Hi Marko,

I was planning on staying out of this round, because, to be blunt,
it’s a fool’s errand.

That said, Harold deserves much more than carping from the peanut
gallery for putting his time and money where so many of the rest of
us have just put our opinions.

No, it’s not identical to Leonid’s ring. It can’t be. The whole point
of Leonid’s ring is that the photographs are lousy, and there are no
measurements. So it’s physically impossible to duplicate it.

Barring decent scalable photos, or an actual blueprint, with the
measurements called out accurately, there is no way to make the
"same" ring.

So this round will inevitably devolve into another chorus of “no you
can’t” when it’s more accurately a game of ‘keep away’.

The game’s rigged guys, has been from the start.

I’ve offered to shoot decent photos of the sample ring for Leonid,
and at one point I even offered to help take up a collection to have
a photographer in the city shoot it, to save
shipping/insurance/hassle. Surprisingly, nothing ever came of that.

Harold, for having been crazy enough to actually do the bloody
thing, to the extent that it can be done, I salute you.

For the rest, can we please move on to honest discussions?

Regards,
Brian


#10

For being machine made with some mechanical limitations, I think it
came out very well. Nice job.

Johnny


#11

Well Neil here comes the rub with this whole thing. Leonid just from
looking at what he gave us for “free” doesn’t give dimensions so how
could it be the same? If the metal is cast then no the mounting won’t
be as strong for obvious reasons. but be exact same thing. well now
let’s see if Leonid can give up the measurements before he files,
styles, sets the stones and polishes. And then let’s see what his
measurements are afterward. Again, all of this is for naught anyway
as even if Leonid made this ring twice in a row I dare the
measurements will differ from the one he has made previously. Why?
Because nothing is “perfect”. Period!

Russ


#12
Well Neil here comes the rub with this whole thing. Leonid just
from looking at what he gave us for "free" doesn't give dimensions
so how could it be the same? 

I understand that no one’s cad/cam rendition of the ring could be
literally exact. I don’t want to knock Harold’s work. As I said, I
liked it and he deserves credit for doing the work and sharing it.
But it wasn’t even close. There was bulky metal work. Leonid’s
website video is clear enough to show very large azures and fine
(thin) metal work. That’s not what was made.

Leonid pierced each azure and sawed each prong, to the fineness that
is evident even in that small online video, where a mistake at any
stage would have ruined the ring. It is my understanding that with
cad/cam you draw a minimal portion of the ring and use the computer
to replicate the segment into a full circle. So if you need to draw
only part of the ring , and if you make a mistake and you can go back
to an earlier saved copy and try again, why is the azuring so bulky?
Is it because thin detail like that can’t be strong enough? That’s
the whole point. Can the ring be made to the same degree of fineness
and strength using cad/cam as it was by fabrication? the question was
not, can a similar-looking ring be made by cad/cam.

If the metal is cast then no the mounting won't be as strong for
obvious reasons. 

Well, but that was the whole question!

Apparently some who do cad/cam believed it could be done, and Leonid
said, show me. That hasn’t been shown yet.

Neil A.


#13

Well folks,

I’m in the same boat as Brian and endorse his message.

The criticisms that are flung out by some on this forum are becoming
quite petty and has now well and truly gone past boring. There will
always be the self-promoters and their kind, as well as others that
know better. So let’s just get back to the original concept that
Orchid was founded on.

Surely we are adults enough to realise that opinions differ as do
styles and techniques. After all that’s why we are here on this
forum, to learn and/or share.

Phil.

PS. Should anyone still be dissatisfied and want to play this game,
and willing to pay for my time, metal, stones and production costs, I
am quite willing to make Leonid’s design just as it appears in the
photo. It will have the same large gaps between the settings
(particularly where the claws are separated at the outside faces),
the poorly formed claws over the stones, and the uneven azure
cut-outs inside the back of the ring.


#14
Sorry, but wayy too much space between stones when finally set. 

There are more problems than spacing between the stones. Did anyone
notice that spaces between base ring and the gallery are filled ?
This is a very serious deviation from design.

Did anyone notice how crude the ajoure is ? Did anyone notice that
prongs literary choke the stones?

The list of flaws is quite long. Like a lot of people said that it
is typical CAD/CAM creation, and now anyone can see it. What CAD
people don’t get is that jewellery requires personal touch.

There must be a tiny element of disharmony to make jewellery
attractive.

Knowledgable baker always add a pinch of cayenne pepper to sweet
recipes. Perfume was discovered when tiny amount of deer musk was
added to rose oil.

Tube amplifiers are preferred by audiophiles because of small amount
of distortion is always present.

The point is that we humans like imperfections. Not too much, but
just right. That is why handwork is so much appreciated. CAD/CAM
boasts precision, uniformness, and etc. But it is not what valued in
jewellery. When things done by hand and details are carefully
refined, a goldsmith introduces minor variations that become his/her
signature. There is a very thin line between intentional disharmony
and sloppiness, but that is the subject for another day.

Few words about why I did not provide dimensions. I do not give
dimensions in my DVD either.

Dimensions are entirely dependent on stones used and on the ring
size. This is part of a challenge to determine number of stones the
most appropriate for size of a ring. To keep stones close together
may necessitate increasing ring outer diameter, which introduces
number of technical issues solving which is a necessary part of the
challenge.

Harold should be complimented for his valiant efforts, but it should
not be overlooked that he approached it with notion of omnipotence of
CAD/CAM and that is why is is a failed attempt.

I hope that he will try it again, because there are a lot to be
learned from it.

Some say it is a fool’s errand. Well, that depends on how one
approach it. To succeed, one has to copy not the exact dimensions,
but the spirit of the design. The design of Eternity ring is
completely functional. There are not a single element “just because”.
So the challenge is to understand and reproduce the function of each
and every element and then to wring out of CAD/CAM the elusive
element of disharmony in just the right amount.

What missing from current attempt is precisely that, the expression
of functionally. Configuration is kind of like it but it is boring.
Spaces which must be open are closed to accommodate casting, but
destroying optical characteristics of my design. In essence it is
like comparing a camel and a horse. While both animals can be used to
cross desert, they by far are not equal.

Leonid Surpin
studioarete.com


#15

I was inspired by the recent attempt.

Just sent my files to the printers, for a quote.

At this stage I’m just getting the wax printed.

I’ll post pics when I get the waxes.

Regards Charles A.


#16

what is the printing cost of the ring ?
give me an idea for knowledge

Kapil Jain


#17

I did not receive any specs regarding this Eternity ring. Charles
was kind enough to fwd me a couple of “foggy” pics and I took it from
there.

My experience has taught me that it must be both esthetically
pleasing and functional from a manufacturing standpoint so I
personally followed through each step of the design/manufacturing
process > In-House from start to finish:

CAD design
prepare design so it may me printed on RP machine
configure photopolymer resin burnout cycle
cast using Induction Casting machine
bench work prep for setting
setting of 22x 3.0mm CZ
polish ring
render ring
receive ignorant comments

Well I guess #9 is par for the course. Criticism is a learning
process so here are some facts to chew on:

little or no space between Diamonds: correct normally I create my
Designs with 0.01mm -0.015mm spacing (about the width of a 8.0 saw
blade) However without any given specs I had"estimated" the Diamonds
accordingly to the finished height of the ring plus the diameter of
each Diamond which resulted in a evenly indexed spacing of 0.45mm
between @ Diamond.

I am not a “CADCAM” jockey living in CADCAM Land Full apprenticeship,
trained under and privileged still to work with a "Master Jeweler"
for 40+ years on the Bench as a Designer/Mold and Model maker.
recognized the fact that change is inevitable and went back to night
School for 2 years to learn Auto-CAD before Jlry CAD software was
even available received GIA Diplomas for: Diamonds, Diamond Grading,
all 3 CAD courses Refined my Jlry CAD/CAM skills for the past 15
years only because I have a foundation and understanding in Jewelry
manufacturing both hand-made and production.

This Ring was created with no dis-respect to Mr. Leonid, my only
message was that anything can be done in CAD/CAM.

My greatest compliment came from my mentor /Master Jeweler, my
Father, so Marko you can put your “false teeth” back in, get in
front of your Laptop, design, fabricate, set, polish, render and post
this ring for all to see, so we too may learn from you how to
improve our techniques.

It has always been our Industry’s downfall when “egos” dominate we
fail to understand that strength in knowledge is what we seek.

Namaste
Harold Eberle
palladora.com


#18

Hi Guys,

I’m getting 4 waxes printed at $35 a pop, and it’s a discounted
price as I’m getting 4 printed.

I’ll post some pics when the waxes arrive.

Kindest regards Charles A.


#19
The criticisms that are flung out by some on this forum are
becoming quite petty and has now well and truly gone past boring.
There will always be the self-promoters and their kind, as well as
others that know better. So let's just get back to the original
concept that Orchid was founded on. 

Are you not flinging criticisms, everything you write could be said
about you also. It seems that if someone disagrees with you, they are
wrong. I think this IS the original concept orchid was founded on,
discussing what works and what does not work. We could not learn and
or share if everyone agreed on concepts that might not work.

Bill Wismar


#20
Should anyone still be dissatisfied and want to play this game, and
willing to pay for my time, metal, stones and production costs, I
am quite willing to make Leonid's design just as it appears in the
photo. 

The purpose of challenge of making Eternity ring is to learn about
hand-fabricating and limitation of CAD/CAM/cast process. One should
try it not for someone else, but for oneself.

There is no need to inform anyone or to post any pictures. There is
no obligation to share whatever the results may be. Consider it a
mental hygiene. So next time when one looks in a mirror, one would
know who is looking back.

That said, I want to explain about photo of the ring. The only
reason I posted it is because someone said that they cannot proceed
without one. The truth is that photo is simply irrelevant. Do not try
to copy appearance, but do try to copy idea of allowing diamonds as
much light as possible. On my website one should find Eternity ring
guide, where few suggestions on variation of gallery design are made.
So actual appearance can differ as long as main idea is preserved.
The reason I consider Harold’s attempt a failure is while appearance
was copied, the idea of allowing diamonds as much light as possible
was entirely destroyed.

It is not his fault or anyone else for that matter. It is a
limitation of CAD/CAM/casting process, resulting in metal far too
weak to allow for detailing, which separates real jewellery from
something just happened to be made of precious metals.

Leonid Surpin
studioarete.com