I agree with the lack of technical data available as pointed out by
Leonid. I’ve folllwed this thread closely, and have also been
somewhat confused in trying to compare the Durston to my Dinkel 65.
Glad to see I wasn’t just missing it!
Perhaps it just boils down to that old IT saw, which may be a valid
argument in itself: “No one ever got fired for buying IBM.”
Bob
Are Cavallin and Dinkl still producing mills? How come they are never mentioned on Orchid. I have a Cavallin from way back when.....
Dinkels are still made in Germany they are made by Dima (short for
dinkel machinists) look under
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep80gp
Chris Hackett
Hi Janet,
Are Cavallin and Dinkl still producing mills? How come they are never mentioned on Orchid. I have a Cavallin from way back when.....
No. cavallin used to produce rolling mills. However, they did go out
of business / change hands several times in the last 10 years. They
no longer make mills but have all parts made outside and then
assembled.
As far as I know dinkle still make mills but you rarely see them.
They don’t make many and they are expensive.
Best regards
Matthew Durston
Durston Rolling Mills
Dear Charles,
We reduce prices on products to move them out of our showroom, and this is what we did with the last of our Durstons, they went quick. When asked when we'll be getting stock of Durstons again the answer is "highly unlikely".
It was good to speak to you today (by email) to clarify few points.
I understand you work for HOJ in Australia. As you know the reason
that you cannot stock our mills is purely because we have an
exclusivity agreement with Australian Jewellers Supplies.
Thank you
Matthew
Dear Leonid,
I am surprised that you have come up with such a long email about
Durston. - especially when you say you do not use a Durston and you
have not come up with any reason not to buy a Durston.
I am completely mystified by most everybody recommending Durston mills. At the same time, no objective criteria is used to justify such recommendation.
I am also surprised that you say are completely mystified by
everyone’s recommendations of Durston. We have been exporting
Rolling Mills to USA and rest of the world since 1960s. - that is
where the recommendations come from.
I do not use Durston. So I went on their website trying to gain some understanding of their construction, but details are skimpy and selective. So I am curious.
Did you go to the correct website.
Durston Tools | Jewellery Tools & Rolling Mills | Fast Global Shipping again I am surprised. We list
out absolutely all rolling mills and all specs for each mill.
If object is to purchase mill which would last a lifetime, Cavallin, or any other of the same technical characteristics, is the most likely to fulfil this requirement. Cavallin make available such details as type of bearings which are bronze, roll hardness which are 63 HRC, roll diameter which is 65mm
We also make all these details available on our site
and overall weight heavier than Durston which is a good indication of over-engineering to insure long life.
You are incorrect. Our mills are heavier than cavallin and any other
mill.
Note that Durston does not publish roll hardness.
Yes we do. But it is not easy to find so we will change this.
It is interesting that tool vendors do not publish roll diameters either. Roll diameters can be found on Durston website, but vendors do not want you to know that they are smaller than competitors. And roll diameter is critical consideration in selecting a mill.
You are incorrect again. Most vendors / dealers show roll diameter.
There are mills available which exceed Durston objective criteria and cost less. For someone on limited budget such mills are far superior choice. I am not going to mention trade names.
You are incorrect again but I am not prepared to use this post as an
advertisement for Durston’s or put down competition.
I do not work for their marketing departments and I do not do free ad campaigns. But someone in the market for rolling mill should start with educating oneself on what makes one mill better than others and use gained knowledge to shop and compare intelligently. That way one does not become a victim of technical gibberish designed to conceal quality deficiencies of a product.
I think you are trying to run a free ad campaign. - but not for
Durston Loenid, I was tempted to ignore your email but it was full of
so much incorrect and utter gibberish that I felt I had
to reply.
Matthew Durston
Durston Rolling Mills
It was good to speak to you today (by email) to clarify few points. I understand you work for HOJ in Australia. As you know the reason that you cannot stock our mills is purely because we have an exclusivity agreement with Australian Jewellers Supplies.
Most of the member base is outside of the Australian territories,
and sales are not really supported by the Orchid forums.
There’s no benefit for me to be an HOJ employee on this list.
I’m not at liberty to discuss matters relating to HOJ on this list.
I will not answer questions pertaining to HOJ on this list,
there’s an HOJ email address for such matters.
If I am asked about HOJ matters on this list I will ignore the
asker, this list is a break for me and really has nothing to do with
my employment at HOJ.
This is the last time I will refer to myself as an HOJ employee.
One last point:- Durston used to supply HOJ with rolling mills. I
can only assume that the exclusivity agreement came into effect
whilst Durston was dealing with HOJ. It was obviously a business
decision, I can respect that.
Kindest regards Charles A.
I think you are trying to run a free ad campaign. - but not for Durston Loenid, I was tempted to ignore your email but it was full of so much incorrect and utter gibberish that I felt I had to reply.
It is good that you defending your product, but it has to be done in
the right way.
Assigning inferior motives to others is not a good defense. You have
wrote long post as a rebuttal to my comments, but there is once again
no hard facts.
You saying that I am wrong but you do not show where and how I am
being wrong.
Here is why I am befuddled.
DRM C130r (rolls 130mm) weight 46 kilos (according to your website)
Cavallin (rolls 120mm) weight 41 kilos. So at the first sight your
claim that Durston mill is heavier seems to be true. But this
impression quickly disappears if we look at weight per millimeter of
rolls length. Cavallin has 120mm / 41 kg = 0.342 kg and Durston 130 /
46 = 0.283 kg.
With increase in length there are increase in forces and weight per
millimeter of length should increase as well. But in Durston case
relative weight is down by 18%. This is significant in itself but
reality is even worse.
Durston uses very massive center wheel on top while Cavallin (and
others) use simple bar. The difference in weight between these two is
quite large and weight of the wheel is not part of supportive weight
and should be subtracted for the purpose of computations.
The subtraction will lead to even lower ratio. This is not a minor
point because supportive weight or more precisely counter mass
affects durability and performance of any mill.
Roll diameter:
Absolutely critical characteristic. Here we are concerned with ratio
of roll length to roll diameter.
This is important because in any mill design, even huge
multi-rollers industrial mills, there is always some degree of roll
bending. It may be imperceptible but is there and it affects
flatness of rolled sheet.
Obviously the larger this ratio of roll diameter to roll length, the
less bending and the better results. Another aspect is durability,
since the less bending, the stress on bearings is more evenly
distributed, which improves their longevity. So let’s look at
numbers:
Durston 130mm rolls - 60mm in diameter, which gives us 60 / 130 = 0.462
Cavallin 120mm rolls - 65mm in diameter, which gives us 65 / 120 = 0.542
That is 15% better than Durston
There are other characteristics that I can compare, but the above
should be enough.
Leonid Surpin
If the other brands also use top of the line Swedish roll steel of
Rockwell cscale 67/64 maximum hardness like all Durston mills
do… Then you havea good point.
Rick Powell
I just read the tail end of this thread, not bothering until now
because I haven’t been using my mill much at all lately. I posted
quite a bit several years ago, for a short period, about my
adventures with making textured plates and trying to roll texture
from one steel plate to another, to make 2nd generation plates. I
started out with a Pepe and soon found it’s limits, and then going
past them in a destructive (to the Pepe) way. It was clear I needed a
bigger mill, and looked into Durston some, but settled on a Cavallin,
but not because I thought, or learned, that it was superior. I got a
good deal on it, and since I wasn’t exhaustive in researching mills,
I didn’t particularly think it mattered much if I got the Durston or
the Cavallin. I wanted a bigger millright at that time; I didn’t want
to learn everything in the darn worldabout rolling mills, and I don’t
think I should have to. I wanted to learn which one or ones are “the
best” and get on with it. Mission accomplished, without getting fussy
about it.
I did contact Durston in the process, and got every bit of technical
I wanted from Matthew, so if there’s a problem
researching Durston mills, it seems to me like the problem might be
with the researcher. 'Nuff said aboutthat.
DS
I grew up with the french mill, went to school and worked at jobs
with Dinkell for many years. I bought my first Cavalin 1983, the
largest wire mill they made, 2001 i bought my Durston flat, mill 150
and about then I bought my second Cavalin wire mill the smallest they
made which rolls wiredown to 0.5 mm. Worked at 3 different atelier-s
here all had Cavalins in the 80’s and some 90’s. Durston was not very
well known at the time. My point is, been around and used a lot of
mills, I own both cavalin and Durston, and love them both. and use
them often, they are both equally great at what they do. The Dirston
flat is a 6:1 ratio which makea bringing down thickness quite easy,
the Cavalin is 4:1 but they do the jobs they are suppose to
beautifully, the price in these mills is something to consider, they
are compatible, gove or take 200 $ US. The quality you get for the
price you are paying is superior. the next best you can buy is the
Dinkell, which for me was almost unreachable, at 5 times the price of
the first 2 brands. As a working studio I needed a mill that worked
well, and was cost effective, and the companies were reputable.
Matthew Durston has proven his company to be such a client freindly
company. In the case of Cavalin it is also the case, and I still get
christmas ecards from them, unfortunately theircompany is no longer
producing mills but are selling their stock and will help with
parts/repair if ever needed. No affiliations with either co. just a
happy customer Hratch
I mentioned Cavallin Mills as well. They are perfectly good mills
and cost less than Durstons for relatively the same specifications,
if not slightly heavier (in the 20 + year old models anyway)… They
come up for sale from time to time in the US. But since you are not
in the US I would bet in you would have an easier time finding a
Cavallin or Dinkel since Durstons were never supplied to Israel
directly. Still PEPE’s are perfectly fine combo mills as long as you
align them if they arrive out of alignment which in ANY mill will be
clear when the metal you have annealed rolls to a curve straight out
of the box-'nuff said about any * manual* mill.
In ANY used mill though you must check them out in person whenever
possible- in fact i wouldn’t buy one without seeing it and trying it
first unless its an “open box” from a vendor and still under
warranty. The rollers are the most important feature (more so than a
scratch on the housing) they must also be pristine, rust free (forget
about having them ’ resurfaced’) and aligned (bring a piece of metal
to test the alignment).Otherwise check the housing for all the
screws, bolts and any “improvised parts” -if they are present
politely back out of buying it.
It is wise to purchase a combination mill from the start. It is far
more versatile and saves space because eventually you will want the
ability to make shaped wires, so a flat mill is very limiting. There
are good used mills out there, but if you can buy a new in warranty
machine do so- you won’t be disappointed if there are any problems at
the start.
Durston, PEPE and Dinkl and R64 brand (a quality mill from India)
all stand behind their mills for a long time- but diligence on the
owners part is implied with any mill! Cavallin’s are most definitely
still available despite someone’s post saying they are out of
business.
Cavallin’s aren’t sold in the US, but since neither are you (in the
US) americans need to become more aware of European brands and their
availability in Israel. there are a number of fine jewellers and
schools in Israel that I’m betting will let you try their mills out
before making a major investment… Another thing to keep in mind is
how thick you pour your ingot. too far = no manual mill able to
handle it
I didn't want to learn everything in the darn worldabout rolling mills, and I don't think I should have to.
Well, this is a personal choice. My preference is to try to
understand completely, or as much as possible about tools that I am
using. Anyhow, I happen to have some notes on rolling mill design,
which I have posted on my blog. It is a bit involved, but not
unsurmountable.
Leonid Surpin
Durstons were never supplied to Israel directly.
Hello R. E. Rourke
We have been selling to Israel directly for many years.
B&B BENBASSAT LTD.
Best regards
Matthew Durston
Durston Rolling Mills
But since you are not n the US I would bet in you would have an easier time finding a Cavallin or Dinkel since Durstons were never supplied to Israel directly.
......Cavallin's aren't sold in the US, but since neither are you (in the US) americans need to become more aware of European brands and their availability in Israel. there are a number of fine jewellers and schools in Israel that I'm betting will let you try their mills out before making a major investment...
Hi R. E.!
I’m sure your useful advise will be of help to Orchidians. I myself
am not looking for another rolling mill—happy with my combo
Cavallin, although I wouldn’t mind having a flat-only mill, in which
case I would get the widest rolls with the largest diameter
(reduction gear assumed)…:-)… In my younger days, I used to
teach at the Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, which is not only
the oldest art school in Israel, but also the oldest insitute of
higher learning in the country! I would not purchase a rolling mill
by trying it out, but rather on the basis of technical
specs…:-)…
Janet in Jerusalem