Easiest antique finish on silver

Jewelry Discussion
21 
I never said contamination. I said poison. If someone wants to off
a king or another important person, what was done is not poisoning
his food and drink to the max, but to introduce micro doses of
cyanide, which took effect over time. The person looked like
suffering from some decease and was wasting away.

You may be thinking of arsenic. Cyanide was not used.

To line cellar cup with gold would be a height of the stupidity,
because gold may look nice, but does not tell you if cyanide is
present. Incidentally, gold lining is always an indication of poor
quality of an article and traditionally is used to conceal the
defects.

No. Just look at cellar cups in museums. This use of gold is called
Siver Guilt. Most communion cups (chalices) are guilded inside. Read
Vasari and Cellini.

The point of Middle Ages is not that use of silver is limited to
this time period, but it is the "art" of using poisons that
bloomed at that time. I would refer to the history of the House of
Borgia.

The Borgias were a Renaissance family

Cyanide is present in most of the seeds and nuts in one or another
form. Nature does it, so even if animal would consume the fruit,
the seeds are spitted out and can become seedlings. Animals
instinctively know not to eat seeds.

Not most, some. Apricots, for example. But in minute amounts! (Birds
eat seeds!)

There was a time when grapes were crushed and juice was in contact
with seeds for long time, creating potential for a contamination.
The presses were crude and seeds were damaged in grape crushing.
This problem was eliminated in modern wine production by making
sure that seeds remain whole and exposure to them is limited.
However, in production of wine from sour cherries, apples, plums -
the danger is still present.

Iā€™m sorry Leonid. This is just plain wrong. Iā€™m going to leave it
here because I donā€™t want a row to start.

22

My low-tech method of tarnishing silver is to hard-cook an egg, peel
it, smash it and put it in a container along with my silver jewelry.
It takes a couple of days to get it a dark silver and Iā€™d imagine it
would take a week to blacken it, although Iā€™ve never taken it that
far.

Mara Nesbitt-Aldrich

23 
No. Just look at cellar cups in museums. This use of gold is
called Siver Guilt. Most communion cups (chalices) are guilded
inside. Read Vasari and Cellini.

Yes they are, but that does not change the fact that it was done to
hide defects. We can deal with firescale easily now, not so
previously. ( I am afraid to define time scale, not to raise ire of
calendar police )

And yes, it was sloppy of me to use middle ages in relation to
Borgias.

About wine, I understand that you do not agree, but I was personally
present on wedding in Moldovia, where father of the bride dropped
dead after tasting his wine. There is a custom in Moldovia. When
girl is born, a father makes a barrel of wine, which kept to the day
of her wedding and drunk then. Would you care to explain that?

Leonid Surpin

24 
The best way I know of is to use wood shavings lightly soaked with
liver of sulphur solution and dried. Article is packed into box
containing shavings and put away for a month or even longer.
Progress should be monitored from time to time. If one is in a
hurry, a low oven can be used, but the slower the process, the
better the results.

Wouldnā€™t it be better to pack it away with an open dish/container of
sulfur solution without the shavings? The shavings, being organic,
would hinder rather than help oxidation, especially under heat. I
realize that tarnish is actually sulfides, and not oxides as is
commonly thought, but I think one might do best not to introduce any
material that reduces rather than oxidizes. Thus I was puzzled about
the wood shavings. Perhaps there are certain woods whose chemistry
promotes sulfides/oxides?

Janet in Jerusalem

25 
While other poisons might be cumulative cyanide is not, you
metabolize it and unless you get enough in a fairly short period
of time it will not kill you. So small doses on a daily basis over
a long time is not a good way to off the king.

As you know, no Monarch was ever assassinated by this method,
precisely for the reason you stated, but that does not mean that it
hasnā€™t been tried. And that the point.

But I do agree that cyanide is not as dangerous as it perceived. (I
am sure a lot of folks is going to jump on that statement) The trick
of working with cyanide is to keep it away from acid. Cyanide and
acid form hydrocyanide and that is the bad stuff.

Leonid Surpin

26 
but I was personally present on wedding in Moldovia, where father
of the bride dropped dead after tasting his wine.

Proud father expectantly tastes what he expects to be his wine
making masterpiece. Discovers itā€™s really really bad wine. Bitter,
tannins, vinegar, etc. Completely undrinkable. In shock, he has a
heart attack or a stroke, and drops dead.

See? It doesnā€™t require cyanide. Besides, I rather expect that if
the wine had enough cyanide in it to kill from a mere taste, that it
would have been strong enough for the characteristic smell to be
present. Or maybe not. But keep in mind that a lethal dose of cyanide
is a much larger amount than some of the much more highly toxic
things one might think of. Modern nerve gases, some bacterial
poisons, some poison frog toxins, methyl mercury, etc. Some of these
things, the amount needed to kill you can be almost imperceptible
amounts. The amount of cyanide needed is well into the multiple
milligram range, not micro grams. The reason cyanide is so dangerous
is that in addition to itā€™s toxicity, itā€™s really fast acting, so you
often donā€™t have time to treat the poisoning. But a lethal dose
usually requires something on the order of 1.5 mg per kilo of body
weight, which equates to about the amount of a baby aspirin or so.
Thatā€™s a rather substantial amount of chemical, especially if only in
a sip of wine. I find that a bit hard to believe as a trace
contaminant coming from included grape seeds in the original mashā€¦

Oh, and on a related note, perhaps to Jim B., while cyanide is
indeed metabolized in low non-lethal doses, long term chronic
exposure to such low doses is NOT benign. Liver and nervous system
damage especially, as well as other health problems. Many body organs
can be affected to one degree or another with long term chronic low
dose exposure. It may not build up as cyanide stored in the body or
anything, but it can do damage over time. Not all MSDS documents
mention this in detail, since the risks of acute sudden poisoning are
so very much more extreme that most documents seem to focus on these
levels of exposure.

Back to wineā€¦ Although Iā€™m not a heavy drinker myself (lifelong
diabetes means I have to be moderate in such things, and budget
limits me to wines that donā€™t exactly set the world on fire), several
in my family were (past generations) or are (a brother) wine
connoisseurs. And Iā€™ve never heard anyone other than you, Leonid, use
the word cyanide in talking about wines. Do you, perhaps, happen to
have any references on the web you could send us to that would
corroborate this danger? Though I didnā€™t spend a lot of time on
looking, Google didnā€™t immediately find such references when I
lookedā€¦ At least not traditional grapes. There were stories about
potentially dangerous genetically modified grapes where genes
inserted gave the plant the potential to make insect resistant leaves
due to exuding hydrogen cyanide gas when attacked. (A property found
naturally in a number of other types of plant) But again, as near as
I could tell, this was leaves, not the fruit, though of course the
whole plant would be suspect, and Iā€™d not want juice from it. But I
could find no historical references for wine contaminated by cyanide
through entirely natural processes, rather than human nefarious
actions. Do you know of any? Otherwise, Iā€™m guessing ā€œurban
legendā€ā€¦

Oh, and just for fun, I put a bit of cyanide based silver plating
solution on a sheet of sterling silver. It didnā€™t turn black. Faint
reaction dulling the silver to a creamy grayish color, but not black.
Yeah, itā€™s mostly silver cyanide, but also some free sodium or
potassium cyanide too. Not much reaction at all. My old silver
electroplating anodes arenā€™t black either. A bit discolored, but
after years of use or sitting around, what would ya expect.

Peter Rowe

27 
Wouldn't it be better to pack it away with an open dish/container
of sulfur solution without the shavings? The shavings, being
organic, would hinder rather than help oxidation, especially under
heat. I realize that tarnish is actually sulfides, and not oxides
as is commonly thought, but I think one might do best not to
introduce any material that reduces rather than oxidizes. Thus I
was puzzled about the wood shavings. Perhaps there are certain
woods whose chemistry promotes sulfides/oxides?

That exactly the point. The goal of the method not to do the fastest
possible way, but to obtain naturally looking results. Antiques
acquired their looks over years, not minutes and that is the weakness
with methods where straight chemicals are used.

Leonid Surpin

28 
The trick of working with cyanide is to keep it away from acid.
Cyanide and acid form hydrocyanide and that is the bad stuff.

Avoid skin contact too. It can be absorbed through the skin. So wear
appropriate gloves, and eye/face protection when using it in
plating. Decent ventillation too, for similar reasons. Yes, the risks
are less than sometimes percieved, but cavaleir attitudes are also a
poor idea. Better safe than sorry with the stuff. It is unforgiving
of errors and carelessness.

Peter Rowe

29

Again, go to the original sources such as Vasari and Cellini. Theyā€™ll
explain the whole thing. Depletion gilding has been used to deal with
firescale on silver for thousands of years.

My father-in- law put down a case of Sauternes for each of his
children when they were born. My grandfather put down a case of Port
for each of his grandsons - the reason is that by the time the
children marry the wine will have - hopefully - become a rather good
vintage. It has nothing to do with poison.

My family comes from Romania & Czechoslovakia.

Tony Konrath

30 
where father of the bride dropped dead after tasting his wine. Would
you care to explain that? 


Just like the recent bit about nitric acid and mustard gas, these
things are easily discovered simply by looking. We discovered a 25
gallon jar of wine under our house that was about the same age as
Leonid talks about. I lugged it down to the street and poured it
down the storm drain. That's because we are smart enough not to
drink rotten food. 

The compound in question is actually not cyanide, it's Amygdalin, a
substance which metabolizes in the body to become cyanide. It's
present in tiny quantities in some seeds, notably apricot and bitter
almond. It is NOT present in grape seeds. 

> Again, grape seeds (which I also eat but don't chew) must be going
through me whole, so how would I get any antioxidant benefits from
them? Chew 'em. There's no amygdalin in grape seeds. 

You could argue directly with him at: 

Robert L. Wolke (professorscience.com) is professor emeritus of
chemistry at the University of Pittsburgh. 

If you are so inclined. 

Grape seeds are bitter because of tannic acid, of course. 

As for the rest of it, I'd suggest reading. This is a good start: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning 

Oleander, death-cap mushrooms and others are things to worry about.
Peach pits are good for growing new peach trees. Grape seeds are
crunchy.
31

Isnā€™t cyanide in cassava? Or rather a substance which converts to
cyanide when eaten? I used to eat quite a bit of cassava, and was
told to always peel it thickly to reduce the cyanide. Old wiveā€™s
tale, perhaps.

32 
Do you, perhaps, happen to have any references on the web you could
send us to that would corroborate this danger?

What is amazing is that no matter how many times I said that in
modern wine production there is no danger, the straw man has to be
built and now it is time to burn it.

The danger existed when grapes were crushed so seed were damaged.
Whether formation occurs or not, is a mater of a chance, but the
practice of making cellar cups from silver have roots in these
practices.

If you want to convince yourself of how real it is if process is
mishandled, buy some sour cherries, crush them so pits would be
crushed as well, add some sugar, and put away for a year.

After a year, do not drink it, but send to a lab and see what you
get.

Leonid Surpin

33 
while cyanide is indeed metabolized in low non-lethal doses, long
term chronic exposure to such low doses is NOT benign. Liver and
nervous system damage especially, as well as other health problems.
Many body organs can be affected to one degree or another with long
term chronic low dose exposure.

I am absolutely certain it is not good for you in any quantity and
would never consider it benign. Just commenting on the idea of slow
build up in the system poisoning.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

34 
Isn't cyanide in cassava? Or rather a substance which converts to
cyanide when eaten? I used to eat quite a bit of cassava, and was
told to always peel it thickly to reduce the cyanide. Old wive's
tale, perhaps.

We started with antique finish and now we are at the plan biology.
Yes, cassava does contain cyanogen - which means it is not a cyanide,
but converts to, or trigger production of, once ingested.

I am sure that cassava from supermarket is not dangerous, if you dig
your own, it may be another matter. But, it is a fact, that every
root, every seed, every nut, every part of a plant used for
reproduction, contains a defensive mechanism, which insures plant
ability to procreate.

Industry representative, scientists, or anyone else connected to
production, or distribution of a particular product, be it wine or
cassava would never admit it, because of concern, it could cause
decrease in sales. And they probably justified because modern
farming, modern production methods, guaranty that danger for the most
part is theoretical. But it wasnā€™t so before and, in my opinion, it
is good to be aware of, even if it upsets some of us.

Leonid Surpin

35 
I am absolutely certain it is not good for you in any quantity and
would never consider it benign. Just commenting on the idea of
slow build up in the system poisoning.

Your right, it doesnā€™t generally build up. But it does do gradual
damage with chronic exposure.

Cheers
Peter

36

It contains a chemical which your body can convert into cyanide.
However if well cooked the chemical is broken down into 2 harmless
products.

It also depends on the subspecies of the plant, some are more toxic
than others.

Kay

37

Thatā€™s exactly how I make Cherry wine. Too many of the stones and it
gets a bit nasty but a few add a nice almond flavor. i do this with
cherry pies as well.

Fermentation, incidentally, will nor increase the production of
glucosides.

Dorothy Sayers wrote a short story about a man who dies after
drinking a glass of cherry liquor that had been standing for long,
long time and the cyanogenic glucosides had separated and risen to
the top.

Once again, you about ancient methods of producing wine
are totally wrong. Please give us all a reference from the period
that talks about silver and cellar cups (incidentally an invention
of the Victorian period.)

Tony Konrath

38 
Or rather a substance which converts to cyanide when eaten?

Gotta pound that nail home, on this threadā€¦ Yes, cassava produces
cyanide if not properly processed:

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/cassava.htm

As do cherry pits and stone fruit pits - peaches, nectarines,
apricots (they are actually related, cherries and stone fruits). And
some almonds ā€¦ Oleander is far more dangerous to the general
public, really.

That there are poisonous fruits and plants is not news - 4-8 castor
beans will kill you, if you chew them up - that poison, ricin, is
illegal to possess in any form (in the US) without rigorous
scientific reasons. 1/2 a grain of sand worth is lethal to humans.

But if you mash up cherry pits and make a liquor of it, you have
cherry pitmash, not wine.

Letā€™s behave like the adults we are, eh?

39 
Once again, you about ancient methods of producing
wine are totally wrong. Please give us all a reference from the
period that talks about silver and cellar cups (incidentally an
invention of the Victorian period.)

Let me help you a little bit to expand your understanding. I am not
going to ask you about references, because the proposition that
cellar cup was invention of Victorian period, does not pass a giggle
test.

If you are interested in ancient wine making, start with Pliny the
Elder, who, in his writings, mentioned that glass is starting to
replace silver as esteemed vessel for holding a wine. So unless you
can produce reference that Victorian Period was prior 50 A.D. here
goes your theory.

Proceeding to more modern times, I am referring you to a respectable
source of La Chapelle Vincent Chef de Cuisine. It is difficult to
find a better expert on cooking for Royalty and everything associated
with it. There are many others, but you are going to have to do your
own home work.

Incidentally, any good librarian could have pointed you in the right
direction.

Leonid Surpin

40

Friends,

Firstly, let me applaud all who are experimenting with more natural
products for producing patinas. This has been a 25+ year search for
me, and I keep coming up short. For those who require an effective
patina that works today, please read onā€¦

The easiest, dark gray-black patina is Tech-ox ā€œPā€. Period. It gives
a beautiful consistent finish and looks fantastic after scratch
brushing. Hereā€™s an example of a piece I repatinated (without scratch
brushing):

http://www.hermansilver.com/beforeandafter8.htm

Use a fume hood (or apply it outside), respirator, nitrile gloves,
and safety glasses. The stuff lasts forever, can be used hot or
cold, and is permanent - it soaks into the pores of the metal. Is it
nasty? Certainly. Iā€™m a professional silversmith who needs to get the
job done - safely. Iā€™ve talked to PhD chemists, metallurgists,
platers, on and on. I donā€™t want to use something that looks like
house paint after itā€™s been applied, and Iā€™m sure you donā€™t either.

Buy Tech-ox ā€œPā€, then let me know how delighted you are with it:

Technic, Inc.
http://www.technic.com/

Jeff Herman