I hate to beat the horse more but from all the questions about the
draw bench and where to get winches and stuff I have to chime in
again repeating some of my rolling mill post.
My first thought is if we look back in history the draw benches used
at say the Faberge’ shop were state of the art at the time. I say,
in my small mind that if they were still open they would not pull
their own wire they
would buy it. If they did pull their own wire they would have a
$100,000.00 machine that draws the wire and anneals it all at the
same time. Why don’t we all use hand drills instead of flex shafts
they are just as good. It seems like there is this little story
going on in our heads that it is wrong to buy wire or stock, it is
not a pure design if we don’t make it ourselves. Faberge’ did not
have a metal house to buy from they HAD to make it. If The House of
Hoover was 2 blocks from Faberge’ I guarantee that they would have
used The House of Hoover later to become Hoover and Strong when
Hoover left russia in 1917 after the March revolution and the
abdication of the Tsar (sorry for the little humor and made up
history).
It occurred to me last night that some might go overboard on this.
I use vaseline....
Yes, vaseline seems to be a very reasonable and long lasting
lubricant choice. I presume the recommended methods of cleaning it
off afterwards, ie. pickle or ammoniated soapy water would suffice.
I say, in my small mind that if they were still open they would
not pull their own wire they {Faberge}
[Maybe will get through after Orchid vacation-dunno]
Sorry to break the news to you, Bill, but yes, they would and yes,
they do. Again, fundamental stuff. Haven’t worked for Faberge, but
have worked at that level - speaking from experience.
Thirty seven years later I can't remember ever cleaning the wire
after drawing it...I just use it. Maybe pulled it through a rag?
Fair comment, I just thought I should probably clean it as people do
keep saying that the metal should be grease-free when soldering, and
whatever lubricant is used must be some sort of grease or oil. I’ve
had some good suggestions though and thanks for your email. It does
seem that some people get away with soldering without going to
extreme cleaning measures and I have at times not been so fastidious
and still managed to solder so maybe I don’t need to worry so much
about it.
It seems like there is this little story going on in our heads
that it is wrong to buy wire or stock
Orchid is offline at the moment, but hopefully this will just be
queued. This is important. It’s important enough to keep after it
until it’s understood. I’ll start by saying yet again that if anyone
wants to pick up pinecones, string them on kite string and call it a
necklace you will have my blessings. The issue is for any who want to
grow in the field and be something greater. There is a field that is
unfortunately not formalized (should be) but it still exists, and
that would be called “Jewelry Engineering”. I am guilty of the same
thing in my life - I enjoy language, study it casually, and I thought
that a linguist was just more of the same, just bigger. Then I had a
moment when I realized it wasn’t just more, it was different in ways
I never knew. I had some of the ingredients, but I didn’t have the
soup you get when you meld all that knowlege in a pot for 8 hours. My
Mother (GRHS) had that problem in a big way - she complained that
anthropologists would treat her like a novice when she had read so
much - I looked at her library and realized that she had never read
anything really deep. She had read “Lost Wax Casting”, but she never
read “Handbook of Induction Heating (Manufacturing, Engineering and
Materials Processing)”. She didn’t know the math, in other words. Let
us use Crayons as an analogy (without the childish connotations, just
a toolset). Most people here, including me, started in jewelry with a
box of 8 crayons - #1 is 22ga sheet, #2 is 18 ga wire, and etc. Then
you get aspirations and buy the 24 box, then the 64 box, then you
realize that you can buy individual crayons of any color from the
“refiner”. Life is good. And maybe you think that those in the bigs
must have giant sets of crayons. But - what we have here is 3
crayons: red, green and blue, and they’re not crayons, they’re a tub
of crayon material. If you go to the aforementioned Faberge, which
does indeed exist, though it’s different now, you will find casters,
casting filers and assemblers, enamelists, polishers, setters. Maybe
you will assemble bracelet links with long strands of wire woven
through them (a typical link). That wire will be supplied you, and no
doubt will come from a refiner or the refinery department. Way over
there, in the corner, is the model maker, and right next to him is
the special order man - the artists, and the ones who determine what
the next products are going to be, in real terms. That product is not
limited by the size of the crayon set - they don’t say, “Well, we
have to do it this way because of the thickness of 18ga.” They don’t
say, “Welll, we have these crayons, what can we do with them? - look
we just got a new prussian blue” They start with the design, and then
make it by doing whatever is necessary to turn the paper image into
metal. 3 crayons, not 500.
I wrote something yesterday about crayons, and I made a technical
error that I want to correct before someone else does. I just pulled
the RGB color model out of my head for the example - computer art
and all that. The RGB model only works with light, though - photons,
anyway. Of course with crayons you’d want to use the RBY color model
red, blue, yellow. Doesn’t affect what I was saying, just
accuracy.
Faberge' shop were state of the art at the time. I say, in my
small mind that if they were still open they would not pull their
own wire
I obviously can’t speak for everyone here, but as one that asked
where to get a winch to build a draw bench, I will speak up. I
personally don’t intend to draw my own wire, heavens no. I have
better things to do that cast my own ingots, mill them draw them,
etc. I buy most of my wire & sheet already in the size I need,
although I certainly will draw or mill something down if I’m out of
what I want & I need it right away, or it’s something I don’t usually
use and therefore don’t have on hand, and I just need a bit, or I got
a larger quantity of something a bit thicker than what I usually use,
knowing that I can alter it as needed to whatever thickness I need,
etc. etc.
That being said, though, it can be quite useful at times to have
that draw bench. I had access to one in school, and I often used it.
Making that bit of tubing in some random size for a hinge, Drawing
down thick wire that is just more difficult that I’d like to do
without the bench, there are certainly times when it’s darn useful.
But because there are just “times”, I don’t want to invest a bunch o’
bucks in a “proper” one, not to mention I have no idea where I’d put
it, so the idea of a table top one that can store out of the way,
easily be made from a few parts, not cost a fortune, but be there &
ready when the need does arise, is very appealing! Haven’t done it
yet, but it’s now on my list of to-dos.
Oh, and may I say, Welcome back! to my daily fix of Orchid. Hope you
had a nice break, Hanuman.
It dawned on me the other day that I consider myself to be a
metalSMITH. While the dictionary defines the word “smith” as someone
who works in a particular material (I paraphrased) I always
considered the word metalsmith (or gold & silver smith) to reflect a
sense that the material is being manipulated by forging, filing, etc.
in a way that transforms it from the original stock.
It is hard for me to think of a day in the studio where I am not in
some way altering stock sheet, wire or shot before I begin to
fabricate with it…
So the rolling mill and rolling my own stock is a reflection of
this. If I were a repair person or a jeweler who was more interested
in another aesthetic, I would take the most economical and efficient
path.
On another note: I’ll be giving a lecture on Thursday night 11/08 at
7 pm in Denver at Denver Metro. Not sure of the location yet.
That wire will be supplied you, and no doubt will come from a
refiner or the refinery department. Way over there, in the corner,
is the model maker, and right next to him is the special order man
- the artists, and the ones who determine what the next products
are going to be, in real terms. That product is not limited by the
size of the crayon set - they don't say, "Well, we have to do it
this way because of the thickness of 18ga."
John, I don’t understand why you think those of us who buy stock
can’t alter it just as well as you can alter your hand-rolled or
drawn stock. That’s like saying a chef who doesn’t grow all his own
food isn’t a real chef.
I use my rolling mill almost daily. Less so my drawplate, but I
certainly do know how to use it. I don’t work in a large shop where
everyone has one skill, I am the only person in my shop. I do it all
repairs, setting stones, and custom orders. If I need an odd size
wire, I will draw it down from the next larger wire that I bought.
No need to “reinvent the wheel”. As for my artistic ability, my
customers come back repeatedly for custom designs.
Tomorrow I am rebuilding a ring with an 8ct. em-cut green
tourmaline. I am replacing it’s bezel, rebuilding the channels
holding in baguette diamonds, and resetting the tourmaline. I will
probably use my rolling mill for that bezel. Next week I will carve
a wax for a $50,000 ring with a 5 ct. cushion-cut ruby in platinum,
with diamond micro-pave. I do everything here but the actual
casting, because of space limitations. I will clean up the casting,
set the stones, and polish it myself. I will use store-bought
platinum wire for the prongs, which will be welded on because wire
prongs are denser than cast prongs.
There is no “rule” that an artist must make everything from scratch.
I definitely consider myself an artist (with a BFA), and happily buy
timesaving gold and platinum stock.
considered the word metalsmith (or gold & silver smith) to reflect
a sense that the material is being manipulated by forging, filing,
etc. in a way that transforms it from the original stock.
The basic idea I am trying to make relates to your statement above,
basically the last two words original stock. I also use my rolling
mill, everyday and my drawplates almost everyday. But I am working
with stock that I buy (original stock). I do not have every size
that I need. I have several sizes and can manipulate that into what I
need very fast. I bill my time at $100.00 an hour for custom and wax
work, so it does not pay for me to pour an ingot and work it to get
10 feet of 15 gauge wire. If you are anyone else wants to do that, of
course thats great. I choose not to go that way. I do not think it
makes me any less of a metalSMITH than you or anyone else, in my
humble opinion, it sets me and others who buy stock ahead of the
game. I never use old gold or scrap to make anything that I sell. My
customers come to me because they want and deserve the best. My
solder matches my stock which matches my casting grain. After 30
years in this business I have seen absolutely horrendous castings
and fabricated items from designers that should have known better. We
as experienced smiths need to consider all the beginners that are
reading our post. Of course you and I, Frank Goss, Daniel Spirer,
and many others can pour and roll our own wire or plate fairly fast
and with good results, but what does it take for the less experienced
to make good flat plate or wire. I still remember my failures of
cracked stock and bad wire. I just do not understand why we as
metalsmiths can use computers with cad cam, laser welders, high tech
casting machines, microscopes for stone setting and all of the rest
of the fancy equipment we have, but we cannot buy stock or wire made
under perfect conditions, drawn on perfect dies with no chatter
marks, perfectly annealed, no firescale, flat not wavy plate and to
the exact tolerance that we need for the fine pieces of jewelry that
we create. In my world, time is money and I don’t get paid to roll
stock and I don’t think anyone else does. Creating well made product
in the most efficient way possible is what keeps us ahead in this
crazy market. We need all the help we can get and I get help by using
someone elses labor for my stock.
Bill and I lately have had some very long discussions off line
concerning ordering milled and wire stock or rolling your own. I have
not ordered milled goods (I use this as an inclusive term for wire
and sheet stock) for 30 some odd years. I have always rolled my own
after purchasing a double mill and draw plates. After reading the
posts of the last few weeks and doing a little (yuk!!!) accounting I
have begun to change my mind on relative cost of using factory
stock. While I will never give up my mills I will be ordering more,
as my time becomes more of an issue… In this vein I spent about an
hour on the phone with the great folks at Stuller Settings to see if
they had a alloy in milled stock that was comparable to the United
Precious Metals S88 sterling alloy. I just am tired of rolling 4
gauge wire for some of my projects and would like to get some of this
alloy in, a larger than I can roll sheet stock, as well. The point
being that Stullers was very interested in what I had to say about
this alloy and spent the time and resources to converse with me about
my needs and how they could best serve them. So those of you who do
not have a Stullers account and think it is too much trouble to
supply them with the necessary to acquire one, think
again. There is no one, in my opinion, and I repeat,no one in the
industry, that can match their service to the little guy. They built
their business on the mom and pop jeweler and they know it and they
act like it… ( usual disclaimer goes here) I can’t wait to see if
they decide to start milling this silver alloy…oh! my aching back…
Drawing wire needs annealing 100%, I did some shared bead-setting
for a client…he forgot to anneal his 14kt gold…"High-Speed-Steel
is softer than un-annealed gold… I could have used a jack-hammer
to push over those beads. Moral of this; anneal after using your
mill,
or wire plate…it only takes a few seconds, but the results are worth
the effort and time for the next application!..
I really couldn’t agree with you more. I buy my solders, buy my
metal already alloyed --unless I need something special and buy 20ga
round 14k yellow gold for earwires and posts. I have started making
my own posts because I needed to find a use for the left over lengths
of wire from the dangle earrings that I make. I don’t use much 14k y
any more so it seems like a good use of time for me.
I am not calling anyone who doesn’t pour and roll their own material
"non-metalsmiths". I am speaking only for myself. I am also not a
Luddite. I am not averse to any use of technology or tricks to speed
things up. I teach “Tricks” workshops, in fact. As I have written on
several occasions, if I need a high quality large piece of sheet, I
will buy it. But in my studio, this is how it works best for me.
When this thread appeared a year or so ago I recall someone stating
the opinion that you would have to be nuts to waste time drawing wire
and pouring ingots. I must admit that I went and looked at the work
of this person and in their case they were basically “cutting and
pasting” sheet and wire. I am not judging the validity of what they
did or their work. But they were making a sweeping statement about a
process that they did not in the least seem interested in.
I am also not advocating the routine practice for everybody to pour,
roll and draw. But I am extolling the virtues of having the ability
to do so. As you said, in this market we must look for any edge. Mine
is the ability to reuse and reapply every last bit of scrap that I
can. As I also said, if the nature of my business was different I am
sure that I would do things differently.
As I also said, if the nature of my business was different I am
sure that I would do things differently.
I think this is a most important principle. We are all not doing the
same thing. Generally speaking, not just this thread, all the info on
this forum should be viewed not as absolutes, but as options. Well I
suppose there are a few absolutes, ie: laws of nature. The
experiences of our fellows may or may not be helpful for certain
situations in the context of what any individual is doing at that
time.
Its like an enormous menu. Are we having Italian? Chinese? How about
some Fusion?
I think this is a most important principle. We are all not doing
the same thing. Generally speaking, not just this thread, all the
info on this forum should be viewed not as absolutes, but as
options.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. One of the most
consistent things about the jewelry bench is its inconsistencies. If
you ask 10 jewelers how to do a task you will get 10 different
answers all leading to the same end result. When someone asks me how
I do something part of my explanation is always that " this is the
way I do it not the only way it can be done". I think it is one of
the things about this business that has kept me interested for over
30 years… My view from where I stand.
I could have used a jack-hammer