Don't transport flammable gas in vehicle

Jewelry Discussion
21 
You need to look at DOT regs for transportation of hazardous
materials.

I just did. It looks like there are exceptions to the hazardous
materials regulations for what are called “Materials of Trade” that
may apply to the quantities of gases most of us are talking about.
Basically, it looks like if you are not a transportation company,
then you are allowed to transport limited quantities for use in your
business without having to do a bunch of the things you would
otherwise need to do(placards, shipping papers, etc). One reference
to limited quantity that directly applies to what we are talking
about: Division 2.1 (flammable gas) or 2.2 (non-flammable gas) in a
cylinder: The gross weight of the gas and cylinder must not exceed
220 lbs. (100 kg).

Jason
Still doesn’t mean we should be transporting them inside of a car, bu

22

I did look at DOT regs, including those that cover transportation of
hazmat, and was unable to find anything that even vaguely referred
to anything other than commercial cargo transport. That’s why I asked
for a cite. Certainly you must be able to point us to a specific
reference?

If I’m breaking a law, I’d like to know which law it is, and what,
specifically, I can do about it. I don’t think my local supplier
delivers to residential addresses, so I would need to investigate
alternatives. So I need to read the ACTUAL regulation, to find out
EXACTLY where I might be in violation, so that I can mitigate that.

For example, even the commercial regs discuss the RQ. Perhaps my
little 8lb cylinder is small enough that I’m not in violation, but
others on this list get larger tanks, and need to make other
arrangements.

But without any links to the regs, we can’t make intelligent,
informed decisions.

23

Years ago when I was an insurance claims adjuster I was assigned a
claim in which the insured’s car blew up while he was in his house
having breakfast. He had filled a propane tank early in the morning
and transported it home in the trunk of his car. He parked in front
of his house and went in to have breakfast. The breakfast nook,
being in the front of the house, he happened to be looking out the
window in the direction of his car when he was entertained by the
sight of his car’s trunk lid opening of it’s own accord and flames
shooting out the side windows. Can you guess what set it off? This
was before electronic clocks with digital readouts. The clocks in
those days were spring driven, but the spring was periodically
rewound by a little electric motor which activated as needed. The
miniscule spark which resulted when the motor’s relay contacts either
opened or closed was sufficient to ignite the propane which had
escaped from the tank.We totalled the car.

Jerry in Kodiak

24 
I've just spent the better part of an hour trying -- unsuccessfully
-- to find any reference to a US or Washington State law that
forbids carrying acetylene, compressed gas, or any hazardous
material, in a passenger vehicle. 

You need to look at DOT regs for transportation of hazardous
materials.

I have, too. They are voluminous so possibly I overlooked something,
but everything I saw applied to commercial motor carriers. If you
know the citation that is specific to private citizens, perhaps you
might do everyone a favor and post a link to it?

Unless there is a section specific for private citizens, with
limitations, then according to DOT Hazmat rules you’d also need to
placard your vehicle on both sides, front, and rear, carry paperwork
in a compartment by the driver’s door and leave your door unlocked,
have a Hazmat endorsement on your driver’s license, and a whole lot
of other things. A commercial trucker needs to do all that just to
transport a case of hair spray. Clearly Hazmat regulations that apply
to commercial motor carriers do not of necessity apply to private
citizens. Otherwise, I can see the signs in the windows of shoppers,
“Hairspray on Board”*. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

*For those outside the U.S., it was fashionable for a while for some
people to display “Baby on Board” Hazmat-style placards in their
rear window.

Neil A.

25

Yes the guy who blew his car up did some very stupid things in a row
and is very lucky to be alive. Yes you do not hear about this
happening all the time because it doesn’t, the vast majority of the
time there is no problem but it does happen several times a year.
After posting this on another list one of the folks on that list sent
in an article about a plumber who was killed this year when an
acetylene bottle leaked and there was an explosion in his van. Yes
probably hundreds of thousands of people move 5 gallon propane
bottles in their cars from the home depot or wherever every year and
you rarely hear of a problem with that probably for 2 reasons. First
is that propane has a much narrower explosive range(2.1% to 10.1%) in
air than acetylene (2.5% to 85%) and the second is that small
acetylene cylinders are terribly abused by the construction trades so
they leak a lot more often. In the 30 odd years I have been doing
this I have seen quite a few leaky acetylene cylinders but not one
propane cylinder. Remember consumers are given a lot more leeway in
regards to handling hazardous materials that businesses are. If you
are in business (you claim income or losses from your jewelry making
sales to the IRS) then your commercial transportation of the
compressed gas is regulated by the DOT rules and doing so in a
passenger vehicle is not allowed, you will also have a greater
liability issue if there is an accident. If it is your hobby then you
may have a different set of rules but most states do have very strict
rules about transporting hazardous materials no matter who you are
and even empty compressed gas cylinders are considered hazardous
materials. Don’t ask me why the ubiquitous 5 gallon propane cylinder
seems to be mostly ignored. The whys and wherefores of government
regulation are never easy to understand or logical. As Vicki pointed
out a pickup truck rental is only $20-$30 from U-Haull or Home Depot
etc. so there is no excuse for using your passenger car to move the
stuff.

Do not forget the first really stupid thing that guy did was to put
the acetylene bottle in his car.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

26

If you have access to natural gas, I highly recommend the G-Tec
Torch Booster. I’ve been using one with a Meco Midget torch for five
years and couldn’t be happier. I went with this for the safety
reasons. I didn’t want to have stored bottled gas in my workshop.
The guys at G-Tec are great and have helped me, through a phone
call, make an adjustment to a gas flow valve when it became apparent
that the flow to our neighborhood was too low. I’ll call them in the
future to talk me through some maintenance on a few parts that are
supposed to be routinely replaced each year. That and an Airsep
Oxygen Generator have proved to be my answer to the safety issues.
Thank you for being a great forum!!!

Karen O’Brien

27 
If you are in business (you claim income or losses from your
jewelry making sales to the IRS) then your commercial
transportation of the compressed gas is regulated by the DOT rules
and doing so in a passenger vehicle is not allowed, you will also
have a greater liability issue if there is an accident.

Please cite the law that says I am a person required to be governed
under this regulation

28 
He had filled a propane tank early in the morning and transported
it home in the trunk of his car. He parked in front of his house
and went in to have breakfast.

Maybe the subject of this thread should be changed to, “Don’t leave
tanks of flammable gas in your car longer than necessary.”

29

Thanks James that’s really good

Regards Hamish

30 
Do not forget the first really stupid thing that guy did was to
put the acetylene bottle in his car.

The pictures were spectacular, but all the focus on the car still
bothers me.

Say he did essentially the same things except that he transported the
bottle in the open bed of a pickup truck - he left the bottle
unloaded and uninspected in his garage overnight, he noticed the
smell of gas the next day, he opened the garage door and he turned
on a venting fan (in place of using electric windows in the car).
There still would have been an explosion.

It seems to me the important concerns with transporting bottles are
that they might be ejected in an accident, thrown around in a sudden
maneuver, or that leaking gas could accumulate in a confined space.
I do not know that driving with all the windows down would be the
same as a pickup bed, but it seems pretty similar to me (especially
in the winter).

I have a pickup truck. There is no way to secure an acetylene
bottle that can fit in a car (MC or B) in a stock pickup bed. A
rented pickup would not be any different. One has to build in
supports and anchors specifically to hold a gas bottle. Using a seat
belt inside a car or wedging the bottle in the foot well in the back
seat is really poor security, but it is still more secure than in the
back of a stock pickup bed in respect to preventing a ‘loose canon’.

I am not saying that transporting acetylene bottles inside a
passenger car is a good idea. Rather, the bottle should be well
secured wherever it is placed, and it should not be leaking to start
with. DUH. Sorry for the sarcasm, no disrespect intended toward
anyone, but that’s a really important point, as James says he has
encountered leaking bottles.

The real issue behind those pictures hasn’t been addressed - it was
unsafe handling of the acetylene bottle. How it was conveyed is just
a distraction. The bottle should have been checked for leaks at the
loading dock - carrying a 4 oz. bottle of leak detector is no burden
and no reputable gas supplier should object to your using it.
Wherever you put it, do not start out with a leaking bottle! It
should have been transported in a way that it could not have been
‘knocked about a bit’. There should have been maximum possible
ventilation (not just a cracked window) until the bottle was removed
from the vehicle. The bottle should have been brought straight to its
destination and tied down immediately upon arrival and checked for
leaks again.

What is the difference between a car interior or a shop? Wherever
the gas bottle is, it must not be leaking. If you do smell gas, in a
car or in a shop, you do not make a spark. The car was never the
issue here.

Neil A.

31

Hi Karen

I agree with you. I have my bottles outside the workshop and tubes
through the brickwork. I do this because I love the immediate heat of
oxy/propane. Bottles in workshops need to be taken out at night in my
opinion. However I still transport them in my estate car but again
never leave them in it.

Regards Hamish

32

Yes, often our tanks are larger, but how is this different from
going to the grocery store and buying a tank of propane for a
barbeque grill?

33

You know, I have asked at my gas supply place in the past about how
to transport, and they said to lay it down in the trunk or back seat
floor of car so long as it does not roll a lot. I am a bit irritated
that they are giving poor advice, especially since not safe let
alone potentially breaking laws. They will not deliver the tanks to
my shop because the size is too small. I guess I will be looking for
a friend with a pickup to help me when I need to refill tanks. Thanks
for the info, Melissa

34 
The USDOT regulations applis only to commercial transportation
across state lines. Individual states have their own regulations.

Yes but most states use them as the boilerplate for their own
regulations.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

35

I do not want this to turn into a "what is fine jewelry " thread. If
you are satisfied that your transport of flammable gas is legal in
your jurisdiction, great. My came from my gas supplier
here in WA maybe he is wrong or I misunderstood. None of which
affects the safety issue of transporting acetylene or other
flammable gas in an enclosed passenger vehicle, it is both foolish
and unsafe to do so.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

36 
You know, I have asked at my gas supply place in the past about
how to transport, and they said to lay it down in the trunk or back
seat floor of car so long as it does not roll a lot. I am a bit
irritated that they are giving poor advice, especially since not
safe let alone potentially breaking laws. They will not deliver the
tanks to my shop because the size is too small. I guess I will be
looking for a friend with a pickup to help me when I need to refill
tanks.

I have the same problem, fortunately the store is just a few blocks
away, but they never said anything about how to transport, set up,
etc. A neighbor who says he knows about this stuff came over once,
and bled off the gas into the air, and I work in a basement with
only a fan to the outside. and a gas heater in the next room! I have
no other place to work. I always burn off the excess gas when I am
done. My husband and I just looked at each other, and turned on the
fan, and shut the door to that room.

I don’t think the gas people want to take responsibility.

Roxy

37

Interesting that not a single supplier of acetylene has ever said a
single word to me about it. They have been kind enough to take it to
my car, made sure it was upright, not leaking, and securely held in
place. Does seem to me that IF this were illegal, they would have
said something, but for the past 25 years, I have purchased my
acetylene at any number of different suppliers (big and small) both
in Austin, Texas and in Sarasota, Fl. and nary a soul has ever said
anything about the means of transporting other than to say they did
not deliver to residences. I wish someone had pointed this out to me
years ago. I have not enjoyed having to transport my acetylene in my
car, but I am amazed that this law is in place and not a single
supplier has ever said this was illegal.

In addition, I have attended any number of demonstrations in which
the demonstrator has brought their own BIG (bar-b-q grill size)
propane tank inside the school or office building for giving a
demonstration. No one has ever said they should not be transporting
their propane in a car, nor should they be bringing such a big tank
inside.

It is interesting that this law exists and in 25 years not one soul
has ever said a word to me about it. Is there any reason that no one
has spoken out on this before? I have been a member of this forum
for many years and don’t recall anyone ever bringing this issue up
before. I must have missed it if they did. I am not trying to say
that such a law does not exist, I am only questioning why there is
no enforcement about it. Shouldn’t the suppliers tell you that they
will only sell it to you if you pick it up in a truck? Are they not
honor bound by any code to follow the law? Are they in any way being
negligible if they sell it to you knowing you are putting it in your
car? and not in a truck?

Kay

38 
Don't ask me why the ubiquitous 5 gallon propane cylinder seems to
be mostly ignored.

Propane cylinders in automobiles aren’t ignored. They are
specifically all owed. I drove a dual powered propane-gasoline
automobile back in the 70’s. The propane tank was mounted in the
trunk, immediately behind the back seat. A little lever on the
dashboard switched from gasoline to propane (while driving). Really
slick, especially during the gasoline shortage. Conversions are still
being done, even on some police cars.

39 
The bottle should have been checked for leaks at the loading dock -
carrying a 4 oz. bottle of leak detector is no burden and no
reputable gas supplier should object to your using it.

Win! I’m going to start doing just that. Great suggestion and great
post. (thumbs up)

40 
I have asked at my gas supply place in the past about how to
transport, and they said to lay it down in the trunk or back seat
floor of car so long as it does not roll a lot. I am a bit
irritated that they are giving poor advice,

Personally I would take the advise and word of my gas supplier over
internet postings by people I have never met nor do I know their
reasons for making these claims. How often have we seen posts here
that state something as fact only to have the person back pedaling
when asked to show proof? I am not saying it happens much here but I
have seen so many faceless internet posts where people seem to just
building up their own self worth and showing off just how smart they
are.

I would think that the professionals in the gas industry would have
the most knollege about flamalbe gasses and be the most likely to
give you the proper advise on transport. After all they are the ones
that could be held liable for miss-if something happened.
I would stick with the real pros. It is their livelyhood that is on
the line.

MJ