Thanks for all the good advice. I’ll put them to use next time I get
a scummy diamond ring.
On the ammonia issue (this might be one for the chemists). My
ultrasonic manual states that use of ammonia in it will void the
warranty. Is there some corrosive chemical reaction with ammonia and
stainless steal? I do like the ziplock baggy idea.
Eric
Daniel,
That is about how scientific you really need to be on this particular issue. The rest of it is meaningless unless you're starting with pure ammonia gas which none of us are.
I must side with Helen on this one. You know that what you are
referring to is the low strength “ammonia” that you get in a grocery
store. But if one were to say go to the chemical supply house or
another one of several suppliers of “ammonia” you would get 35%
ammonium hydroxide which is way too strong. In fact it can cause
severe lung damage if you get a good whiff.
There are several chemicals that we use that are available in
various strengths that can act radically different depending on
concentration. Hydrogen peroxide is another one, the common grade at
3% is safe enough to put on a cut to disinfect it. If you bought it
at a chemical supply or beauty supply it would be quite a bit
stronger with the stuff from the chemical supply capable of causing
explosions when mixed with certain other normally innocuous
materials.
Now anyone who has been around these chemicals in the shop knows
exactly what to buy and it seems ridiculous to get specific about
nomenclature. But I have had students buy the lab grade chemicals in
the mistaken belief that it is the same thing or that the stronger
concentrations or purer must be better. On this forum there are
those that have been doing this forever and also those that are
totally ignorant of even the most basic things in jewelry making. So
making certain that we specify concentrations is a good habit.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
360-756-6550
Helen,
It is vital to know what you concentrations you are working with any
and all chemicals. Or die today, maybe before lunch.
Probably enough on “Cleaning off scum”
Every time I see this subject I still see a cannibal sized pot
filled with simmering nasty stuff in the corner to separate scum ball
customers from their repairs. Not legal but then too much time at the
repair bench does have a bad effect 
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
So making certain that we specify concentrations is a good habit.
Yes except that both I and the other poster who originally brought
up using ammonia both referenced it as store bought ammonia. In the
US you simply can’t get anything so concentrated that it will harm
you from a normal store.
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
I must side with Helen on this one. So making certain that we specify concentrations is a good habit.
Thank you James! I’m not one of these people who has to be right for
the sake of it, but on this topic I do believe we must state
concentrations used for safety’s sake. My ammonium hydroxide is
33.5% and so I only use approximately 40ml (a capful) in a litre of
water and it’s lethal stuff which anyone can get hold of.
Helen
UK
Dear Eric,
I could not find any reference to chemical reactions between
ammonium hydroxide (aqua ammonia as it’s sometimes called, or ammonia
in water) and stainless steel. However, I did find references to
stainless steel or carbon steel actually being the material of choice
for storing aqua ammonia and even pure ammonia (also known as
anhydrous ammonia) gas. “Ammonia” will corrode copper and so systems
employing ammonia, whether it be in its pure gaseous state or in
solution with water, use steel piping. The following link is a page
of regarding ammonia, it’s storage, handling, etc:
So I don’t think it’s the stainless steel tank part of your
ultrasonic that the makers are talking about. Perhaps they don’t
recommend “ammonia” being used because of the electronic parts?
Perhaps others can clarify this.
Helen
UK
and one particular person said that "taking a more laissez-faire approach is far superior" than getting caught up in the detail.
How profoundly ignorant… Helen is trying, quite successfully, I
might add, to save everybody’s life and limb. Be nice to her. Smile,
shake her hand, and say thank you.
The language of science, and in this case chemistry, is there for a
reason. You can speak casually when it’s OK - “Pour some household
ammonia in it.” But saying “pure ammonia” when something else is
meant is just not acceptable. That means 100% ammonia, that is
unless you don’t actually speak English. If you were to say to etch
with “pure nitric acid” when you actually meant 10% nitric without
any adulterants added, you would be in for a nasty surprise you’ll
never forget.
Many people here are working out of their kitchens or garages - good
for them. Using grocery store chemicals - good for them. All it takes
is one moment in time in this industry, though, and everything is
different. One shop I worked in had 55 gallon drums of cleaning
detergent, 35% ammonia AND 35% hydrogen peroxide, 5 pound containers
of cyanide eggs, on and on. Walking into that shop thinking a casual
attitude towards hazardous chemicals will be just fine will cost you
your life. It’s not that we should be fearful, it’s that training and
procedure is important. And language.
On this forum there are those that have been doing this forever and also those that are totally ignorant of even the most basic things in jewelry making. So making certain that we specify concentrations is a good habit.
You’re absolutely right but let’s look at this another way. I’m a
newbie reading about this stuff for the first time. There’s that guy
Mr. Spirer, admittedly a big mouth know-it-all (but who obviously
has been in the trade for years), who says that I should go to the
local supermarket and buy some ammonia to use. But then I read Ms.
Hill’s advice. She’s a chemist and obviously also knows what she’s
talking about too so I write down her formula. Then Mr. Binnion, who
even Mr. Spirer says is brilliant and knows far more than just about
anyone (this is NOT tongue in cheek), agrees with Ms. Hill that you
should know the concentration of the stuff before you start to work
with it. So armed with this I head down to my local
supermarket. The only problem is that none of the stuff labeled as
ammonia there has any concentration figures on it (unlike hydrogen
peroxide which is always clearly labeled with a concentration). So I
go to the next supermarket and have the same problem. I go to a few
more and finally realize that none of this stuff that is available
locally at the store is actually labeled that way (trust me, I’ve
been buying it for years and none of it has ever had a concentration
amount on it). So then I start thinking about what to do. I figure if
I can find someone who sells ammonia with a concentration amount on
it then I can mix the stuff myself using the formula Ms. Hill so
kindly provided. Doing my research I realize that the only place I
can get this is from some industrial shop so I go and buy some of
this stuff to mix up. Only NOW I’m working with something that is far
more concentrated and way more dangerous than anything I could have
bought in the supermarket. So which is safer here? In my book
sometimes simpler is the best bet.
Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
Helen is trying, quite successfully, I might add, to save everybody's life and limb. Be nice to her. Smile, shake her hand, and say thank you.
Thank you very much for your support John (and others). It is much
appreciated and I’m glad that you can see where I’m coming from.
Daniel writes today that the store bought grocery “ammonia” has no
concentration written anywhere on the bottle. This I find quite
shocking. Even though it’s very weak and its uses are normal
household uses, I still feel that the manufacturers should state the
concentration somewhere on the bottle.
I’m going to rest my case now - I’ve said my bit. Play safe - live
longer.
Helen
UK
Helen, my question is, why are you using the super-concentrated
deluxe ammonium hydroxide solution when you are going to dilute it
anyway for use? Wouldn’t it be a lot safer for you to purchase the
pre-diluted stuff at the grocers?
Lee Cornelius
Vegas Jewelers
Wouldn't it be a lot safer for you to purchase the pre-diluted stuff at the grocers?
Yes it would, had I been able to find such a product when I was
looking. The only place I could find it at the time was one of the
jewellery supply companies I use and all they sell is 33.5%
concentration. Chemicals that you can buy from the grocery stores in
the States, such as ammonium hydroxide, hydrogen peroxide, etc are
not as easy to come by in the UK. Yes they are available if you do
some hunting, but my bottle of “ammonia” was what I could find at the
time. It will last me for years to come and I am very careful. I keep
it in my workshop which has a lockable door and I don’t have any
small children running around. I may at some point dilute some down
to a more manageable concentration so that I’m not having to handle
the super concentrated stuff too often - obviously clearly marked
with the contents and its new concentration.
I was informed a few days ago by a fellow UK member, that household
ammonia can be bought from some DIY stores. When I run out in years
to come, I’ll look into that one, but in the meantime, I’m happy to
know the concentration of what I’m using (you’ve probably got the
gist of that from all my posts!)
Helen
UK
My ammonium hydroxide is 33.5% and so I only use approximately 40ml (a capful) in a litre of water and it's lethal stuff which anyone can get hold of.
If the stuff is so much trouble, and you dilute it so far anyway,
why not use ordinary 5-10% solution? Do you use such quantities that
it saves you money?
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
If the stuff is so much trouble, and you dilute it so far anyway, why not use ordinary 5-10% solution? Do you use such quantities that it saves you money?
I’ve just answered this question to someone else. It was all I could
get hold of at the time. Household ammonia is not as easy to get
hold of in the UK as it is in the US. I’m (hopefully) leaving this
thread now.
Helen
UK
To add to the ‘how to get scum off diamonds’ thread. Just as a ‘for
instance’ I have two bottles of hydrogen peroxide. One purchased from
Duane Reade in the US and another from a local chemist here in the
UK. The US one is 3 %, the UK one is 9 %. Not a huge difference in
this case perhaps, but it is important to be aware of what’s in
anything, particularly before making use of it.
Alison
in the UK as it is in the US. I'm (hopefully) leaving this thread now.
Yup. Everybody has different reasoning for everything. With ammonia
you could say the technical grade reagent is marginally cheaper, or
that you can make a stronger solution quicker, or that it’s all you
could find.
I’d say the biggest reason for most is plain old convenience. For
shop of 12, per week, putting out 600 rings/day:
20 gallons detergent, 1 gallon ammonia, 1 gallon peroxide, 500ml HF,
3lbs. boric acid, 2 gallons methanol, etc. Soap, flux, pickle,
investment, sawblades, burs, files, polishing wheels, solder… For a
person to chase all that down in a medium size or larger shop is not
an option.
So you call your chemical supply rep and put an order on your
account… And the nice man brings a box to your door. Personally, I
don’t use ammonia 'cos it stinks up the place…