Cleaning scum off diamonds

Jewelry Discussion
21 
I use grocery store bought pure ammonia. Not a cleaning agent with
ammonia in it.

Grocery stores would never sell “pure” ammonia. Pure ammonia is a
lethal gas. What is sold in grocery stores (and what I also use) is
technically known as ammonium hydroxide, which is simply ammonia gas
bubbled into water. The ammonia molecules (NH3) each take a hydrogen
atom from some of the water molecules (H2O), giving ammonium ions
(NH4+) and hydroxide ions (OH-) in solution. For some reason, the
manufacturers call it ammonia. It’s not quite as dangerous as pure
ammonia gas but it sure takes your breath away when you use it, as
some ammonia gas is liberated. It’s still very nasty stuff and
should always be used in a well-ventilated area. Sorry if I’m
nit-picking.

Helen
UK

22

My point was that I wasn’t buying a product like Mr. Clean (don’t
know if you have that there in the UK) but a plain ammonia.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.

23 
Also, does anyone have any good homemade cleaning solution recipes
for ultrasonics?

The last time, I filled my little machine with Windex. Seemed to
work OK. Any comments from the pros?

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

24

Helen,

The stuff they sell in grocery stores is less than 10%, probably 8%.
Long ago I de greased a motor bike frame with 28% ammonia and damed
near killed myself but it sure worked well… Old art schools had
some rather nasty chemicals quite available. I’d probably be
considered a really major hazard these days :slight_smile:

Jeff
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

25

Daniel is correct in that ammonia will work. In the US this can be
purchased in stores (grocery, pharmacy, general merchandise). Just
DO NOT use any form of chlorine bleach with it. the resulting
chemical reaction is not good for life.

john
John Atwell Rasmussen, Ph.D.
http://rasmussengems.ganoksin.com/blogs/

26

Hi Jennie,

I just use plain ol' $1.20 a gallon generic ammonia from the
cleaning aisle in the grocery store.

I responded to a similar post yesterday explaining that what you buy
in the grocery store is NOT just ammonia, as ammonia is a lethal
gas. What you buy is ammonium hydroxide, which is ammonia gas
dissolved in water. I was apologetic for being nit-picking, but
please bear with me as there’s a reason for my nit-picking.

I use it two parts ammonia to one part water (it probably should
be the other way around, but I'm impatient).

What you are purchasing is mostly water, so to say you use two parts
ammonia to one part water is incorrect and I would suggest that you
probably can’t even get that much ammonia gas into water. I could
look up the solubility of ammonia gas in water in one of my
chemistry books, but it’s not necessary. My point is to ask if all
this “generic” or “pure” ammonia is the same concentration across the
board?

You can’t possibly compare strengths of your mixed “ammonia solution”
(eg two parts to one part water), without also stating its
concentration. For example, the ammonium hydroxide (or ammonia
solution as it’s labelled) which I use is 33.5% concentration. I
only use about a capful in one litre of water (and it sure takes my
breath away when I take the lid off). It’s probable that the stuff
sold in grocery stores is way more diluted than 33.5%, hence why you
need to use so much of it.

So, to realistically compare with each other what strength you use,
people need to state the concentration (probably stated in terms of
a percentage), and how much they use of that to how much water. Then
we’re all on a level playing field.

The formula for this sort of problem is:

Original Concentration X Original Volume = Final Concentration X
Final Volume

We are trying to find out the Final Concentration.

So to substitute my figures, I use approx 40ml (0.04 litres) of
33.5% ammonium hydroxide (ammonia solution) added to 1 litre of
water, so:

Orig. Conc. X Orig. Vol. = Final Conc. X Final Vol.

33.5 X 0.04 = Final Conc. X 1.04 (1 litre plus 0.04 litres)

Final Conc. = (33.5 X 0.04) / 1.04

Final Conc. = 1.34/1.04

The Final Concentration of my solution is approximately 1.29%.

Now, I don’t know the concentration of the solution you are buying
in the States, but I just found a website selling 8% solution, so as
an example, using your proportions (and using the example of 200ml
ammonia solution to 100ml water) and 8% solution, here goes:

Orig. Conc. X Orig. Vol. = Final Conc. X Final Vol.

8 X 200 = Final Conc. X 300 (200ml + 100ml)

Final Conc. = (8 X 200)/300

Final Conc. = 1600/ 300

Final Concentration in this example is 5.33%. If my guess work
regarding the concentration of solution available for purchase is
correct, then as you can see your solution is still quite a bit more
concentrated than what I am using. I am, however, not taking in
repairs or jewellery for cleaning on a regular basis so perhaps your
concentration may be more suited to the task.

It’s important to note that the above formula can be used to make a
solution of a desired concentration (Final Concentration in the
formula), by rearranging the formula and knowing what concentration
of solution you are starting with. It will tell you what volume of
that solution you need to add. So, if for example you wanted to end
up with 1 litre of solution, substitute your concentration of
purchased solution (ie 8% in my second example) into the Original
Conc. part, the desired Final Concentration and 1 litre for the Final
Volume. It will tell you how much to add. This volume must be
subtracted from the final volume of 1 litre so you’ll be adding X
amount less than 1 litre of water. Is that understandable? This will
be useful if someone comes up with the optimum concentration needed
to clean the scum off diamonds.

So, as you can see, just stating volumes used is not informative
enough to make comparisons with each other. If folks who buy the
ammonia solution can state what concentration they buy, how much
they use and how much water, we can more easily compare the
concentrations of the solutions being made.

Sorry for being boring or nit-picking again.

Helen
UK

27

Hi Daniel,

My point was that I wasn't buying a product like Mr. Clean (don't
know if you have that there in the UK) but a plain ammonia.

I knew what you meant and I wasn’t having a go at you. In fact I
knew you’d be aware of the fact that ammonia is not a liquid at room
temperature and pressure, but a gas and that the product sold in
grocery stores is ammonia gas dissolved in water (ammonium
hydroxide). But your post was the one which used the best words to
respond to. It’s just the ex-chemist in me being a little pernickety

  • sorry.

To my knowledge you can’t buy the ammonium hydroxide from grocery
stores in the UK. I had to purchase mine from one of the jewellery
supply companies and paid a silly amount for carriage because it’s a
hazardous substance. I don’t think we have “Mr Clean” over here, but
I’m presuming it’s a sudsy ammoniated cleaner - the type which we
basically make up ourselves for the ultrasonic. It makes sense
buying the ammonium hydroxide and just mixing a little of that and
some dish soap with water, rather than paying some company to mix it
for us.

Helen
UK

28

Forgive me but as the title sais Cleaning scum off diamonds I seemed
to have missed this thread. If it hasnt already been suggested I put
the diamonds into the palm of my hand sprinkle some salt and rub
away. Thay come up brand new. As far as cleaning the ultrasonic goes
Windex is the answer to every problem not just cleaning as shown in
the moivie my big fat Greek wedding.:slight_smile:

Cheers
Christos

29

Hi Helen,

No, this nit picking is important. Some terms do need to be
“preserved” in their pure form.

I worked at a winery at one time where the refrigerant was anhydrous
ammonia, in total there was some 18 metric tons of the stuff in the
refrigeration plan which I slept some 80m away from. I was told in no
uncertain terms that should I smell ammonia in the residence to hit
the BIG red button and run up wind as fast as I could. It probably
wouldn’t do me any good, but at least they would find my body quickly
was what I was told.

Ammonia is toxic and we should know what we are talking about, it
might just save a life.

Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
Little Gems.
http://tjlittlegems.com

30

Hi Gang,

If you want really good ammonia, shop the hardware store or a shop
that sells cleaning supplies for janitors or cleaning companies. The
ammonia sold at these type of stores is usually stronger than the
stuff sold in grocery stores.

Dave

31

Hi Helen,

In North America there are 2 products sold. 1- is called Ammonia and
is really Ammonium hydroxide. Generally packaged in a 10 to 35%
solution, with 10% being the strength that you would find in a
Grocery store. 2- Is called Anhydrous Ammonia which is liquefied
ammonia gas. It is sold to Farmers and to industrial use. Here on
the farm the tank of ammonia is mated with a water tank, the 2 are
mixed under pressure to produce ammonia hydroxide which is sprayed on
fields as a fertilizer / ph modifier.

Sort of reminds me of a discussion we had here on orchid about ether
a few years back. One must make the distinction between the Chemist’s
use of a name and the public use and finally the use by industry
where the same “name” *(Really a label) can vary in the same city let
alone across the ocean…

Ask a Jeweler it’s called soldering, Ask almost any other industry
and it’s called brazing as another example.

Kay

32

…Just a user of the product…but Shaklee sells a product called
Basic H…there is also a Basic I that is stronger…It will clean
anything and is environmentally good and sound for your body…

For example 3 drops of H in a 500ml bottle is good for window
cleaning. Heating Windex may release things ??? into your air that
may affect you in the long run.

having spent since Dec 27 in bed with pneumonia, bronchitis and
asthma I’m a little sensitive about my air quality…

…and grumpy as heck…my 2 cents

33 
Grocery stores would never sell "pure" ammonia. Pure ammonia is a
lethal gas. What is sold in grocery stores (and what I also use)
is technically known as ammonium hydroxide, which is simply ammonia
gas bubbled into water. The ammonia molecules (NH3) each take a
hydrogen atom from some of the water molecules (H2O), giving
ammonium ions (NH4+) and hydroxide ions (OH-) in solution. For some
reason, the manufacturers call it ammonia. It's not quite as
dangerous as pure ammonia gas but it sure takes your breath away
when you use it, as some ammonia gas is liberated. It's still very
nasty stuff and should always be used in a well-ventilated area.

Sorry if I’m nit-picking. By “pure” ammonia, I am referring to the
plain ammonia solution you can buy in the cleaning aisle. Many
general cleaning products on the shelves contain some small amount of
ammonia, but also have a ton of surfactants and detergents in them
that pretty much defeat the purpose of using ammonia. I don’t know
that you can even buy industrial-grade 100% ammonia in the States
without a license. The point of my post was to try and dissuade the
author from buying a less effective (and probably more expensive and
possibly more caustic) substance.

Jennie

34

Hi Thomas,

No, this nit picking is important. Some terms do need to be
"preserved" in their pure form.

Thanks for the support. I’ve had my wrists slapped by a couple of
people for being over the top about all this, but I was only trying
to help. Thanks for recognizing that.

Helen
UK

35 
I responded to a similar post yesterday explaining that what you
buy in the grocery store is NOT just ammonia, as ammonia is a
lethal gas. What you buy is ammonium hydroxide, which is ammonia
gas dissolved in water. I was apologetic for being nit-picking, but
please bear with me as there's a reason for my nit-picking.

I think there is a major products availability clash going on here.
Here in the States you can buy “ammonia” in the cleaning aisle. I
spent many, many years in medicine, and as such took many, many
chemistry courses, so I am well aware that it is not pure ammonia,
but for the purposes of conveying to the original author that they
should look for the ammonia solution (ammonium hydroxide), I referred
to it as “pure” ammonia. There are probably a thousand products on
the market in the States that contain some small percentage of
ammonia. As far as the concentration goes, all of the “ammonia”
solutions available “over the counter” are going to be close to the
same concentration, due to federal regulations. So, for instance, I
can buy a gallon of “ammonia” at a store in California under one
brand name, and then go to New Jersey and buy it under another brand
name and be buying the same thing. I was taught to mix it with some
warm water to help loosen gunk and crud on my jewelry – not to set
up a chemistry shop. I apologize if this seems a bit snippy, but I
would hope you’d give us (even non-chemists) some credit for not
being so stupid as to gas ourselves to death.

Jennie

36 
I apologize if this seems a bit snippy, but I would hope you'd give
us (even non-chemists) some credit for not being so stupid as to
gas ourselves to death.

You’ve completely missed the point of what I was saying. There’s no
product availability clash going on. I understood exactly what you
were saying, ie. that it’s best to buy ammonia solution (ammonium
hydroxide) rather than some cleaning product with a small amount of
ammonia in it. I was merely pointing out that the words being used
were misleading and that it is far more helpful to people who want
to know “how much?” if the concentration and ratio of product to
water are roughly stated.

I never said or implied that any non-chemists are stupid. I might be
a chemist but I’ve forgotten most of what I learned so I do not hold
myself up as some sort of expert. I always try to be clear in my
posts, hence the lengthy, detailed post you’re referring to - but I
was trying to be helpful, not insinuate that anyone was stupid.

Helen
UK

37

I’m afraid I have to jump in here and defend my position with regard
to this thread.

I posted a fairly detailed diatribe about what people are buying,
what it consists of and tried to get across the point that it is
important if stating “how much” you use, on a public forum, where
people may follow your recipe, that you also state the concentration,
so that a true comparison can be made.

I was reprimanded on and off-list and one particular person said
that “taking a more laissez-faire approach is far superior” than
getting caught up in the detail. But, thinking about this, I cannot
agree when we’re talking about ammonia!

For example, it’s all very well for folks to say “I use two parts
ammonia to one part water” and most on this list will understand
that you’re talking about the very weak solution as sold in the
grocery store. However, there may be just one person who has bought
lab grade ammonium hydroxide at 33.5% (the strength of mine) and who
may mistakenly then mix is far too strongly. As Thomas Janstrom said,
“Ammonia is toxic and we should know what we are talking about, it
might just save a life.”

Hopefully, I rest my case. Don’t take this stuff lightly.

Helen
UK

38 
I was merely pointing out that the words being used were misleading
and that it is far more helpful to people who want to know "how
much?" if the concentration and ratio of product to water are
roughly stated.

In the United States (and I know you live in GB), the product known
as clear ammonia, sold in all of the grocery stores in the US, will
yield much the same cleaning results if it is casually, and without
concern for actual concentrations, added to some random amount of
water and (IMHO) Ivory liquid, especially if it’s used in an
ultrasonic, when it comes to cleaning the scum off of diamonds, with
the exception of a really low concentration of the product, sold in
the US, known as clear ammonia. In other words, in your Ultrasonic
pyrex container, put some water in, some ammonia in and some Ivory
liquid, and the thing will clean your diamonds. Put a little more
ammonia in and it will clean a little quicker. Put even more in and
it will work even faster. That is about how scientific you really
need to be on this particular issue. The rest of it is meaningless
unless you’re starting with pure ammonia gas which none of us are.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC

39 
As far as the concentration goes, all of the "ammonia" solutions
available "over the counter" are going to be close to the same
concentration, due to federal regulations.

Common household ammonia, or aqueous ammonia (yes, I took a minor in
chemistry, but I don’t expect the general public, or jewelers for
that matter, to use chemically correct names) varies in a 2-1 ratio,
from 5-10%. Commercial products may go to 25%. Anything over that is
industrial or laboratory use. I’m not aware of any Federal
regulation of household ammonia concentration, and a Q&D search turns
up nothing.

“Pure” was probably not the ideal choice of words. Perhaps “plain
ammonia” would get your meaning across.

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

40

Hi Jeff,

Long ago I de greased a motor bike frame with 28% ammonia and
damed near killed myself but it sure worked well.. Old art schools
had some rather nasty chemicals quite available. I'd probably be
considered a really major hazard these days :-)

I’m not surprised! :wink: Ah, cleaning motorbike frames takes me back a
few years to my biker days. :slight_smile:

My ammonium hydroxide is 33.5% strength and for safety reasons it
should be dispensed under a chemical fume hood as the fumes really
are enough to knock you out if you breathe them in. I don’t have one
of those so I make sure there is nobody else in the vicinity, open my
workshop windows wide, dispense a capful into water without
breathing at all, then high-tail it out of my workshop for ten
minutes, shutting the door behind me - it is lethal stuff!

My nit-picking in this thread has to do with stating concentrations
used because it is a solution in water and the likelihood is that we
all have access to different concentrations. If someone new to this
gets hold of the very strong solution that you and I have, and mixes
it in the proportions stated by others who buy the weak stuff (and
who only state how much they use), then disaster could strike.

There are people on this list (clearly not you) who are taking my
comments the wrong way, and saying that they’re not starting up a
chemical lab so don’t want to be measuring this and that and saying
that I am calling others on the list stupid. As you’ve found out,
solutions with ammonia in can be extremely dangerous and it IS
important to know what strengths we’re talking about. It is equally
important to know what strength someone means when they say they use
“two parts ammonia to one part water”, to use one example stated. If
a newbie did that with yours or my concentration of ammonia, we
could have a deceased Orchid member on our hands. It is responsible
to state concentrations as well as proportions when describing one’s
recipe used on a public website - even if it’s only a rough
approximation of how much is used.

Thank you for not taking it the wrong way and understanding where
I’m coming from - I’m merely trying to be helpful.

Helen
UK