So, Leonid how about just doing a few quick pictures showing how you would make a bezel in this manner on your Orchid blog?
My DVD “Coronet Ring” http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/fp contains
visual instructions with explanations for working with oval bezels.
To fully appreciate the importance of familiarity with ellipse, I
recommend another DVD of mine “Ballerina Ring”
Leonid Surpin
Thanks for your view - it's mine as well, so naturally I think it's great!
It’s the view of a graduate in the liberal arts…
In reading all lthe replies to this thread, a line from Kipling
keeps coming into my head: " There are nine and sixty ways Of
constructing tribal lays AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS RIGHT" (I
have no idea what a tribal lay is, by the way)
Jerry in Kodiak
Hey Hans,
So, Leonid how about just doing a few quick pictures showing how you would make a bezel in this manner on your Orchid blog? I am quite happy to return the favor by doing the same, showing how I would make a bezel for say a 15mmx 10mm cab, or any other stone as well, square, rectangular, whatever.
I’d appreciate the demo on a blog, it’s always nice to see how
others work.
We were doing bezel sets in the first couple of week in first year.
It definitely isn’t rocket science.
However if you wanted to… you could make it into rocket science
(mwah ha harrr).
Scan the stone with a 3D scanner, draw the bezel profile you want…
even a profile depicting “The Last Supper”, print it out the correct
size, and cast it up.
Some people like over kill 
Regards Charles A.
P.S. Of course I haven’t had a client ask me for something like that…
but it would be expensive 
Jerry, thanks for writing this fun comment. I am a poetry lover but
amazingly had never read Kiplings" “In the Neolithic Age”. I loved
it. Thanks. And I don’t know what a tribal lay is either, but don’t
think it matters, frankly!
Kay
I’d wait until Hans puts up his free blog. Sort of makes the
decision of what method to use pretty easy. Free or pay.
For about ellipses, it’s free on wiki.
Regards Charles A.
But what do you think the right method of teaching is - by using dividers, or saying "practice until you can do it" ?
The right method of teaching is the one that the student learns
from. Dividers may work for some, practice until you get it may work
for another.
Both methods will take a relatively long time to get right, if you
are self taught. The time to learn a technique is greatly reduced if
you’re learning from an instructor.
Regards Charles A.
of a function or a sum of functions. if a shape is made up of semi-circles, than knowing the radiuses yields the solution. Length of a curve N = PiRn and length of circumference = Sigma(PiRx) (with x varying from 1 to N )
Ya get yer stone. Ya put yer stone on the benchtop. Ya get yer stock
and a pair of chain nose pliers. Ya bend a curve in one end to
start, matching a curve on the stone. Ya bend it round more and
more, matching the curve of the stone, checking frequently. When ya
get back to the beginning ya mark it, allowing fer filing. Then you
solder it, then you fit it so it’s perfect after soldering. Then ya
have lunch.
how about just doing a few quick pictures showing how you would make a bezel in this manner on your Orchid blog? I am quite happy to return the favor by doing the same, showing how I would make a bezel for say a 15mmx 10mm cab, or any other stone as well, square, rectangular, whatever.
Hans, thank you for your offer. I hope Leonid will accept the
challenge. He probably wont, but if not, perhaps one of the others
that use his method, will do so.
For those who haven’t looked at his web site, Mr. Meevis gives a
wealth of free and tutorials.
Although I am not one of the younger people, I also would like to
see both methods of bezel making.Perhaps I can learn something from
each.
Andrew
Ya get yer stone. Ya put yer stone on the benchtop. Ya get yer stock and a pair of chain nose pliers. Ya bend a curve in one end to start, matching a curve on the stone. Ya bend it round more and more, matching the curve of the stone, checking frequently. When ya get back to the beginning ya mark it, allowing fer filing. Then you solder it, then you fit it so it's perfect after soldering. Then ya have lunch.
Besides having nothing to do with original subject of length
calculation, as a practical advice on construction of irregular
bezels, it has number of shortfalls. However, in attempt to ridicule,
it provides an opportunity to make the distinction between two
approach quite clear.
If we are using materials like wet paper, modeling clay, and others,
that do not workharden and without any elasticity whatsoever, - than
the above method would work. Gold and silver alloys do not behave
this way. By deforming one part of a strip, we are affecting
mechanical properties of neighboring areas. When shape consists of
several curves, the task begins to remind the torment of Sisyphus.
Let’s say we fitted first curve perfectly. But when we finish
fitting second curve, the first one is no longer perfect. We go back
and correct the first one, but than the second one is changed. By
going back and forth, we manage to bring both curves in alignment. At
the end of third curve, we have to repeat the whole process of
refitting, but with many more steps and each successive curve adds
more and more complexity and more and more steps. Imagine doing
something like that with a dozen curves. Reference to Sisyphus
becomes very apt indeed.
Compare to this: Calculate precise length and solder. Shape does not
matter at this point. Next step is to roughly approximate the
required shape without worrying about details. In the third and last
phase, the shape is refined by deforming in opposite directions only.
(Deformation is done in diametrically opposed pairs) This
distributes and balances out effects of deformation due to quasi
circular nature of the shape.
I bet that practitioner of later will start lunch early and enjoy it
in leisurely fashion, while practitioner of former would have to be
content with wolfing his sandwich at the bench. To the better life
through Mathematics!
Leonid Surpin
The right method of teaching is the one that the student learns from. Dividers may work for some, practice until you get it may work for another.
Wrong! The right way is always the way which is predictable,
reproducible, and is not relying on above average abilities. People
can be trained to cross rivers walking on high wires. However, I do
not see many of those. We use bridges with sidewalks equipped with
rails.
Leonid Surpin
Well, OK, since the question is asked - a “lay” is another word for
a song or ballad. I’d go so far as to say it often centres around
heroic deeds or other memorable events - a conveyance of the local
culture in song, anthemic almost.
And true enough - every one of the ways of singing a lay is correct
because they are handed down generation to generation and are tended
carefully to keep them in traditional form.
Marty - occasional singer of lays.
I can’t believe how long some of these threads go on for.
I have to hand it to John and Jo-Ann for their detailed explaination
Ya get yer stone. Ya put yer stone on the benchtop. Ya get yer stock and a pair of chain nose pliers. Ya bend a curve in one end to start, matching a curve on the stone.
Some people just want to over-complicate things
Roger
But when we finish fitting second curve, the first one is no longer perfect. We go back and correct the first one, but than the second one is changed. By going back and forth, we manage to bring both curves in alignment. At the end of third curve, we have to repeat the whole process of refitting, but with many more steps and each successive curve adds more and more complexity and more and more steps.
I’m sorry Leonid, but you keep trying to imprint your lack of
ability upon the rest of us. It’s really very, very simple, and it’s
basic craftsmanship. A person who can’t wrap a piece of metal around
ANY shape is no craftsman. It’s no different from fitting all manner
of things that need to be fitted - a fundamental skill. Picking up a
piece of flat wire and matching it to an irregular stone is
incredibly easy to do, with a certain level of skill. I do a fair
amount of baroque-cut opals with around 1mm thick bezel wire - it
takes about 10 minutes to do each one, depending. There’s nothing
wrong with math - I think you also imagine that we all are ignorant
of Pi, which we are not. I just don’t need it to make bezels - one
of the simplest of things to make.
PS - with your heuristic methods your measurement innacuracies are
going to compound exponentially. A tenth here and a tenth there and
all of a sudden it’s a millimeter. Less accurate, in the end. The
real point is that there’s no need to use a shotgun to hunt
mosquitos. Ya just make a bezel and move on.
Some people just want to over-complicate things
Like this maybe? This is how I would do it when I am ready. I’ve got
everything I need to do this, except for a reason.
Put cab on an uncovered flatbed scanner.
Scan the cab and surrounding area at monochrome 1200 dpi. The area
under the cab will be black. The area surrounding cab will be white.
Save as JPEG.
Launch GIMP. Perform edge detection. Perform threshold detection.
Launch Inkscape. Vectorize image. Clean up outliers. Save as DXF.
Launch Bobcad. Import DXF. Convert to GCODE with option to allow
for radius of endmill as the thickness of bezel, and a plunge depth
as the height of bezel.
Launch EMC/AXIS running under Ubuntu 10.04, controlling your
favorite CNC machine.
Insert a graphite block gently into vise. Install endmill. Touch
off axes. Execute GCODE. You now have a bezel mold. (Don’t forget to
clean up graphite dust!)
Melt silver in your favorite manner, cast, pickle, then abrade
for smooth fit to cab.
Result: A workable bezel. Tony Stark, eat your heart out!
Andrew Jonathan Fine
I posted a HIDI tutorial showing my method of making a bezel on my
Orchid blog,
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/1o3
Any comments or better ideas are more than welcome.
Cheers, Hans
http://www.meevis.com
I would be willing to bet that those who have done hundreds or
thousands of these will get the size right…:-)… But even if
you don’t have such extensive experience of this particular
activity, it’s still pretty easy if you realize that reducing the
length at the actual point of overlap by the thickness of the metal
is extremely close to the desired length.
Leonid wrote:
I accept your point. But that does not mean that method is valid. A lot of things can be done with practice. When I worked as engraver, I almost never used dividers. I could visually divide in 2, 3, or any other number of parts. But what do you think the right method of teaching is - by using dividers, or saying "practice until you can do it" ?
Janet responds:
Please reread the second sentence. The claim was that a lot of things
can be done WITHOUT requiring practice…:-)…I wrote that WITHOUT
EXPERIENCE the particular task in question is not difficult, once
“you realize that reducing the length at the actual point of overlap
by the thickness of the metal is extremely close to the desired
length.” I, personally, am NOT a proponent of the “practice until you
can do it” mode of teaching. I have found that MANY things that are
supposed to take a lot of time to get right can be done right
straightaway with proper understanding (mechanics, thermodynamics,
phase diagrams, chemistry, physics, math, ergonomics, etc.) plus full
concentration…In this case, understanding the point mentioned
above is the ‘science’ (geometry) that takes the place of
calculating. [As mentioned in earlier post, I tend to do the math and
calculate. However, for thin-metal bezels for cabochons, it’s so easy
to get it just right with visual geometry rather than
calculations…:-)…].
Hans,
I posted a HIDI tutorial showing my method of making a bezel on my Orchid blog, http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/1o3
Wow! Just wanted to say thanks for your post on your blog and all
the lessons/projects on your website which I just discovered. I
always think it is amazing and very generous that a skilled artisan
would share their techniques.
If there are other sites that you would suggest for
lessons/projects/videos/tips/tricks/techniques on any subject
regarding jewelry making I would appreciate that too.
Best,
Chris
I doubt this would give you the workable bezel you desire. Graphite
is such an excellent heat conductor that metal, silver especially,
almost freezes on contact. That’s fine for casting simple blocks as
in graphite ingot molds, but in those, you seldom get fully filled
square corners and fully smooth surfaces. With something thin and
precise, like a bezel, unless it’s an unusually thick one, I suspect
you’d have a very hard time getting a usable casting from this mold.
And even if you did, at best, it will be either tapered in thickness
to match the usual tapered cad/cam mill, or if a straight sided mill
is used, you might have trouble extracting the casting, which will
have shrunk down around the center shape. And even with a small
sized mill, you’ll have a considerably heavier bezel than you might
get with just ordinary bezel wire. This might be what you want, and
if so, fine. But still. A graphite mold sounds nice, but isn’t quite
as practical as it may sound. You’d be better off with a steel one,
which you could preheat as with any other ingot mold. You’d want to
make it as two pieces, perhaps an outer ring and base with a
removable center in order to make it easier to extract the casting.
Again, surface finishes not likely to equal rolled/forged metal, and
with the time you spend making the mold, you could do a dozen
handmade bezels…
Peter
The wrong way I do my bezels (he he) is to wrap the bezel wire
around the stone to take a measurement. Scribe a mark to indicate the
cut and make the cut. Wrap the bezel around the stone again to check
the fit. Trim with sheers if need be and then squeeze the cut ends
with flat pliers to make sure the cut ends are not bent from the
sheers. I mate the two ends in a pair of needle-nose pliers and
wiggle the band to make it spingy and match. If this does not work, I
mate the ends physically. I then put the band on my soldering block,
apply flux and solder and then I heat with a torch until the solder
flows. After the bezel band cools, I place it back over the stone and
fit it. It does not matter what shape it’s in as long as it’s the
right length. But to make sure in fits I use the back of my pliers
and press the metal against the stone to complete the shape with a
rolling motion until it fits around the stone. Then I lay my file on
the table and run the bezel along the file while holding it with my
thumb and index finger and middle finger to make sure it’s flat. It
might get out of shape so I check it again. Once I’m satisfied, It’s
ready to be soldered to whatever back is being used. I do not use
sheers on the second cut if I’m working with gold, but a file
instead. Also, on small round stones I use a nail set as a mandrel.
of course I work predominantly in copper and sterling and I’m of the
mindset that if you actually see the seam then you KNOW it’s
handcrafted!
I know this is not a high-mucky-muck way of jumping through some
grand master hoop, but it gets the job done and I have never had any
complaints in the 19 years of my doing this.
It never ceases to amaze me when we get caught up in the old guild
system. In older times we would be beaten by our teachers for
insisting that we not use the method Leonid employs.
Also, since I work in sterling and copper my attention to detail is
overridden by volume. I have learned accept poor finishes in minor
flaws to a small extent. The higher the finish in sterling, the more
it is removed by wear. The lower the finish on copper, the more wear
embellishes it. But that’s just my take.
TL Goodwin
The Pacifik Image