i recently wanted to use to do some hand engraved patterns i know for
vintage style wedding bands. i wanted to make display model rings for
the show case, except sterling is very soft and the brass ive been
casting models out of is too hard. so i then mixed some casting brass
from rio into some sterling about 3 dwt brass into an ounce of
sterling and cast the blank bands w/ no problems or porosity the
brass hardened up the silver to cut similar to 18kt yellow gold with
the hand engavers. give this a try experiment with the ratios and
percentages of sterling and brass casting grain from rio you may find
your self pleased with your efforts - goo
Sometimes I am amazed. I do believe that all would agree that a primary purpose of Orchid is to further knowledge. Above all, I also believe that it doesn't have to be furthered in an adversarial fashion. Yet constantly, a man of your knowledge, training and talent takes a position in your posts that is not in the spirit of harmoniously arriving at the heart of the issues.
One always has to make a choice of how to address an issue in
effective manner. When faced with the statement which is nonsensical,
but may appear reasonable to someone with less familiarity with the
subject, such choice is always difficult.
If I were to jump into explanation, buttressing my arguments with
citations and equations, I can guaranty that half of the potential
readers would fall asleep, and another half would decided that I have
gone off the deep end. Besides, it would be entirely off the primary
topic of the forum.
So the choice becomes what to sacrifice. It is either the truth, or
the diplomacy. For me it is not even a choice.
Leonid Surpin
Mr. Surpin,
Sometimes I read a posting that causes me to wonder what is
happening on the forum. The members of the forum span the spectrum
in experience and knowledge relative to making jewelry, ranging from
extremely well versed to absolute pre-beginners.
Correct me if I am wrong (I’m sure you would be delighted to do so),
but my training and work experience in biophysics, biochemistry and
physiology lead me to say with some feeling of confidence that
photons certainly do interact with atomic structure (and the
requisite subatomic machinery), and with molecules. A molecule’s
structure is necessarily determined by the interactions of atomic
elements of which it is composed. The great fascination that
gemstones hold for me stems from the colors they exhibit and the way
they absorb, reflect, transmit and refract light. White light is the
flow of photons which carry a variety of energies and, thus, colors
(as in the rainbow). Red light is less energetic than blue just as
UV is more energetic than blue. X-ray photons are more energetic
than UV and Gamma radiation photons are more energetic than any of
these. Gamma rays knock electrons off atoms, ionizing molecules and
thus causing damage to living things. It is a very ignorant position
to hold that photons do not interact with matter at this level. When
an atom absorbs a photon the atom has acquired energy. An electron
(a subatomic particle) can be raised to a higher energy level. UV
photons are absorbed by cellular DNA, electrons are raised to higher
energy levels and portions of the DNA molecule become more
chemically reactive, forming thymidine dimers which damage the
cell’s nucleus. Is this enough example of photons interacting with
subatomic particles?
The colors that we see are produced in a limited number of ways:
-
Some things fluoresce by absorbing energy from incident photons
and releasing it slowly thus producing colored light usually
different from thelight absorbed. -
Some living systems phosphoresce, producing light using chemical
energy provided by metabolism (some fungi and marine organisms). -
Green plants are green because they reflect the green light from
thesun and absorb the red light to make sugar through
photosynthesis. Gemstone color is caused, in most cases, by the
wavelengths of light (photon energies) they absorb or transmit. This
much is obvious to anyone. If photonsare not interacting with matter
at the subatomic, atomic and molecular levels, I wonder what happens
to all the green light that is neither reflected nor transmitted by
a ruby when illuminated by white light? The spectroscope used in
gemological identification of stones reveals which wavelengths of
light are absorbed to produce transmitted color. -
Sometimes color is produced not by a material or pigment that is
"colored" but by refraction, the way light interacts with the
material as in Interference patterns seen in oil on water. This is
the nature of schiller, laboradorescense, and the colors in opal.
Such colors are produced as a consequence of the spacing of layers
of particles, ridges on, or within, surfaces (e.g., Compact disc),
the thickness of a layer of oil, etc. Light waves striking such
arrangements of material are subjected to interference sothat some
wavelengths (colors) are reinforced while other wavelengths cancel.
Google “thin layer interference” for a real explanation. The green
lizard, Anolis carolinensis, has no green pigment in its skin. In
some skin cells are layers of guanine crystals whose spacing causes
blue light to be reflected as a consequence of thin layer
interference. Above these are cells containing a yellow oil. The
blue light filtered by yellow oil gives a green lizard. Sometimes
the lizard turns brown because deeper cells containing brown melanin
push their contents to the surface to “shade” the other cells
(Vaughan, G. L.,1987. Photosensitivity in the Skin of Anolis
carolinensis. Photochemistry and Photobiology 46:1, 109-114). A gem
of an animal.
The iridescent colors that some patinas make on copper and other
metals is the result of interference of light. An often asked
question is why do the colors change when the object is coated with
lacquer or wax. The same can happen to butterfly wing or some
feathers which are colored by interference of incident white light.
The answer is that the coating eliminates or masks the microscopic
ridges or variations in thickness of surface structures which
interfere with light to produce color.
- Light travels at different speeds in various materials. When
light crosses a boundary between two materials (air and diamond) its
path is bent and light waves of different energy are bent to
different extents. This physically separates the light into
differently colored beams. This is seen as the colors produced by
prisms, diamond play-of-color and so on.
I have probably missed some mechanisms of color production and have
not given the best explanations for some of the others. As has
already been stated, some of these mechanisms are complicated.
Suffice it to say, though, that any color we see is a consequence of
the light leaving an object and striking our eye. Silver reflects
more light than platinum copper or gold. Were similar discs of each
of these metals placed in the sun, Silver would heat up more slowly
than the others with gold heating the fastest. The darker metals
absorb more light. The energy in the absorbed photons is converted
into thermal energy, simply the vibrating of the atoms of which the
metal is made. What we see is the light not absorbed. The other way
these metals can exhibit color is through variations in surface
texture. A deep understanding of the interaction of photons with
matter is complicated. What I have stated represents a true veneer
over the deeper phenomena. Simplistic, admittedly. but for my
purposes sufficient to the needs of the day.
So, why did I write all this stuff, especially when I will probably
be embarrassed tomorrow when, after a night’s rest, I read it? First
because color production and perception are very complicated
processes, often poorly understood. Someone pointed out, and, I
think correctly so, that the the color differences between various
alloys can depend upon a complex variety of interactions of light
with the surface that can involve atomic structure and subatomic
particles (perhaps, electrons). Then came your sarcastic (I hope it
was not just ignorant) reply that seemed intended to belittle the
first person. That reply indicated that you did not know that
photons would be interacting with subatomic particles, atoms,
crystals etc. There is no such thing as “action at a distance”. They
do not exert their effects through magic.
Furthermore, you seemed to laugh at the idea of someone watching
this process. Humor is no excuse for cruelty, nor does the cruel
response advance knowledge or provide helpful criticism. It is
simply mean and vulgar. You issued a challenge to describe the
interaction of photons with matter at the atomic level. I have
provided several examples. I may have misunderstood your meaning. If
so I apologize. You and I do not seem to to communicate in the same
fashion.
Some people do, in fact, observe the interactions between photons,
atomic structure and molecules.
Gerald Vaughan
P. S.-- The red ruby can be warmed by all that green light it
absorbs. Though I no longer have the equipment to measure how much,
It is easily calculated. Thermodynamics rules! GV
so i then mixed some casting brass from rio into some sterling about 3 dwt brass into an ounce of sterling and cast the blank bands w/ no problems or porosity the brass hardened up the silver to cut similar to 18kt yellow gold with the hand engavers.
Makes a great hard solder too 
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
Here is the problem. Photon is a quant of energy, not just energy.
The fact that light, and photons, have a dual nature has nothing to
do with your original assertion that photons do not interract with
anything. The interactions of photons with various other
particles/matter exist whether one considers photon behavior as
particle or wave. Both natures remain, photons. Considering the wave
behavior of photons does not divorce it from the identity of a
photon, it only considers this alternate simultaneous side of the
same entity. Photons do not exhibit only wave behavior or only
particle behavior, they exhibit both behaviors at the same time, with
the energy levels possible existing in discrete steps, almost
analagous to digital data versus analog data… Either way, photons
do indeed interact with the rest of our universe, both affecting
those other particles, and being affected by it.
Color of material depends on material refractive index.
No. It’s a function of the selective absorbtion or transmission or
reflection of certain wavelengths/energy levels of a light beam
versus others. While the refractive index of a material has a bearing
on how much the material will affect a certain wavelength, and a
material can affect a certain wavelength differently from other
wavelengths, this alone is not the reason some wavelengths are
absorbed and others are not. Rather, it explains, for example in
gems, things like dispersion. An example: Diamond has a certain
refractive index, which varies by wavelength, giving it it’s
dispersive properties we call “fire”. A white colorless diamond has
these properties. A nice red or blue or yellow diamond has the exact
same refractive index measurements, across the same spectrum of
frequencies. What differs is that in the colored diamonds, certain
wavelengths are absorbed or blocked by some aspect of the crystal
structure or some element present there. That’s different from
refractive index. The spectral absorbtion lines one sees with a
spectroscope due to various elements in a material that light has
reflected off of, or been transmitted through, is not due to the
refractive index of the material. You are correct of course, that
refractive index is a function of how much the speed of light is
slowed down while travelling in a certain material, and the
refractive index also determines the optical critical angle of a
material that will in part determine whether light is reflected or
transmitted by a material. But this differs from color. Color is
mostly independent of refractive index, though it can be affected by
it to a degree.
...Yes, metals have refractive induces as well. Refractive index is a measure of slowing down speed of light insight the material. That means that refractive index is an animal of wave theory. You see, photon is a pure representation of light.
Almost. A photon is not a representation of light. That would be
simply a simbol. The name photon, of course, is such. But the name
refers to an actual packet of energy, who’s exact nature refuses to
be characterized as either totally particle or totally wave behavior,
but rather both. This mystery as to exact nature is true for all
atomic and subatomic particles, at this point in physics. We can
describe the behaviors, but do not yet know exactly what the real
fundamental nature of any of them really are. If String Theory
proves correct, that would be one such answer, but we’re a long way
from proving String Theory, or even fully defining it.
Einstein has proved that speed of light is constant. It is foundation of modern physics.
Einstein’s theory says that the speed of light in a vaccuum is a
constant maximum. That last word is important. The speed of light is
a maximum, not an absolute figure true in all situations. Passing
through matter, and perhaps other conditions as well, reduces the
actual speed of light. This is the normal behavior of light in these
situations. And THAT is one of those foundations of modern physics.
“C” is a speed limit, not always the speed.
One cannot slow photon down under normal conditions, but light wave is a different matter.
No. A photon behaves as both particle and wave. It’s wave behavior
is not seperate from it’s identity as a photon. Slow the wave, you
slow the particle side of it’s identity too.
So photons and refractive index are not compatible concepts.
The particle side of a photon’s identity doesn’t explain refractive
index, while the wave side of that identy does so. But this does not
diverce photons from refractive index. Photons as particle or wave
are not mutually exclusive. The things are both things at the same
time. Any given observation of an effect may be due to one of the
other, but the photons doing this are still photons. They’re not
either particle or wave, they’re both, simultaneously. There’s an
intersting experiment which demonstrates this. That famous dual slit
experiment where a beam of light goes through a beam splitter, then
two slits, forming an interference pattern on the viewing screen on
the other side, clearly demonstrates the wave nature of light. But
these days, it’s possible to build a photon source sensative enough
to emit photons discretely, one at a time, and to build detectors
equally sensative, capable of detecting the arrival of single
photons. Used like this, one might expect the photons to appear as
individual particles, and at first, they do, arriving as individual
discrete bits hitting the detector at single locations. Yet over
time, even when no two photons are in the device as the same time,
thus nothing to interfere with anything else, you still get the
interference pattern. The photons are behaving as both, even when one
behavior seems more obvious with a given observation.
Viewing light as stream photons is destructive to the notion of refractive index. If all this appears confusing, it is. The dual nature of light is still a puzzle.
And there we certainly have something you, I, and the whole of the
physics world, can agree on.
Subject of color in the ways that goldsmith can control, is the subject of controlling refractive index. This is done via alloys compositions, surface finish, and object shape. Gemstones interactions should not be over-looked as well.
We’re probably going to argue this till “the cows come home”. But
color is due to selective absorbtion of certain wavelengths, and
importantly, it’s also rather largely due to the way the human brain
interprets various spectra as one color or another, which is a whole
other interesting bit of complexity.
The original contention was that polish determines color. It
doesn’t. It determines the degree to which light is coherently
refelcted, versus being absorbed, or randomly scattered. A matte
finish metal surface may refect light of a similar color, but because
it does so in a random scattered fashion, the eye seems a more
uniform and even average of what frequencies are being reflected
overall. With a high polish, the coherent nature of the reflections
mean that the various colors and intensities of the source light, is
retained. So you see bright reflections of the lights and windows in
a room, a reflection of that red rose, your blue shirt, and
everything else in the room that’s multicolored. While all these
images seen in the reflection are colored by the color of the metal,
that color of the metal is largely masked by the much more varied
color of the reflections. And the highly polished surface will appear
to reflect more light (and probably actually does reflect more
light), than the matte surface, so it will also appear brighter. But
no matter how perfect the polish you put on your copper mirror, your
reflection in it will never be pure white. You can get a clearer and
brighter and more perfect reflection of more of the light, but the
reflected light will still always be subject to the absorbtion
spectrum of the copper surface. You can verify this easily by looking
at such a reflection with a spectroscope.
Peter
I always make my white golds with palladium. But when I have jobs
that are only piercing work, I would prefer to make a nickel alloy
so I can save my palladium ($) for white gold jobs that involve
soldering. Do you have favorite alloy recipes for 14K AND 18K NICKEL
white gold? Are there any alloying problems I should look out for?
Thanks for any suggestions,
Janet in Jerusalem
White light is the flow of photons which carry a variety of energies and, thus, colors (as in the rainbow).
I thought I was quite clear in my previous post. But before I repeat
myself, something needs to be corrected here:
Photon cannot carry variety of energies. Photon is a quant of energy,
a pulse if you will. Photon is not a physical particle.
Light is not a flow of photons, it can be considered a stream of
photons under some conditions. While “flow” and “stream”
interchangeable in daily vocabulary, in physics they are two
disparate concepts.
Photons have nothing to do with colors. For explanation I refer to my
previous post.
As for the rest of your post. Studying interaction of light with what
you call structures, the light is treated not as stream of photons,
but as electro-magnetic fluctuation of energy, or light wave. I am
not going to spend any more time on it. You can read about dual
nature of light on your own.
Leonid Surpin
The fact that light, and photons, have a dual nature has nothing to do with your original assertion that photons do not interract with anything. The interactions of photons with various other particles/matter exist whether one considers photon behavior as particle or wave.
UNDERSTANDING PHOTONS.
I will use Bohr model of the atom to explain what photons are. Bohr
models does not reflect reality of quantum mechanics, as we know it
now, but it is sufficient for the purposes of this discussion.
Atom has a nucleus, composed of protons and neutrons ( except
hydrogen ) and electrons on orbits. Orbits located at different
altitudes in relation to nucleus, and electrons on these orbits have
different amount of energies.
To stay on lower orbit requires less energy than staying on higher
orbit. It could happen that electron will change from higher orbit to
lower. Such an electron will have an excess of energy, which will be
released. This energy pulse is what is known as photon.
I hope it will clarify all the misconception about photons and nature
of color.
Leonid Surpin
Silver reflects more light than platinum copper or gold. Were similar discs of each of these metals placed in the sun, Silver would heat up more slowly than the others with gold heating the fastest. The darker metals absorb more light.
just be be the fly in the ointment, this particular statement may not
be totally true. While your reflection data may be correct in the
visible spectrum, the heating of the metal disks will be due also
and significantly to absorbtion of infrared energy, possible more
than to absorbtion of visible light, in part because all of these are
pretty good at reflecting much of the visible light. In the visible
spectrum, your order of heating is correct, I think. Not sure about
copper. I didn’t look it up, but suspect it absorbs more visible
light than gold. But not sure. However, gold is a very highly
reflective metal in the infrared. So is silver. Ask anyone using a
laser welder how much power it takes, because so little of the
infrared laser beam is absorbed. Gold is used as a layer on space
suit helmet visors in part because it’s an almost total reflector of
infrared, even in very thin mostly transparent layers, thus
protecting against radiant heat from, for example, the sun… Silver
is either next or essentially equal (not sure), and it’s also highly
reflective in other spectrums as well, so it may indeed absorb less
of the visible spectrum, and perhaps thus heat up slower than gold,
but not, I think, by much. Copper too, reflects infrared very well,
even if a darker visible color. Platinum, though, is not only a
darker greyish white, but is much more an absorber of infrared (with
a laser welder, despite a much higher melting temperature, it takes
much less intense a laser beam to weld, so I rather expect in your
experiment, you’d find platinum heating up in the sun substantially
faster than the others. I’d expect it to heat up at about the same
rate as iron…
No, I haven’t tried it or looked up exact data (couldn’t find it),
but simple experience with the laser welder (infrared, ie heat)
suggests this to be the case.
cheers
Peter
I prefer the 100ND from PM west ( ND meaning non deoxidizing which
means it does not have deoxidizers and the metal gets a dark oxide on
the surface when cast or heated ) it is supposed to be for rolling
sheet and wire only BUT I have been casting this alloy for years
with no problems other than the occasional mistake of getting the
flask and or metal temperature too hot which causes porosity from
gassing. I do alot of bead setting and burnish setting with diamonds
and the non deoxidizing is very easy to raise beads asopposed to
version which contains a deoxidizer is like working in stainless
steel. if i have to solder on the 100ND i have come up with my own
mixture of anti tarnish solution which i dilute some luxi - flux at 3
to 1 with denatured alcohol and add a couple of spoonfulls of boric
acid or until it stops dissolving. I have found over the years using
my recipe dipping the white gold pieces into it I do not need to use
extra flux into the seams and joints when soldering with the pm west
solder as long as i do not over heat the piece it doesnt get dark or
overly oxidized -
goo
Photons as electromagnetic waves induce electrical movements
(currents) within the skin of metals, any movement of charged
particles creates an electromagnetic field, thus causing an emitted
photon out of the metal. Most metals reflect optical lightwaves
equally thus they have a characteristic white color (silver,
aluminum, nickel, iron) but absorb ultraviolet light which our eyes
don’t perceive. This absorption is due to the electronic transitions,
for copper it is between the filled 3d and half-empty 4s atomic
shells. There is a short band of energy levels that the electrons
cannot occupy thus photons of this wavelength are transmitted deeper
into the metal instead of absorbed and then re emitted (reflection).
Copper and Gold have this shift within the visible light spectrum, in
the purple-blue range thus they tend to look orange or yellow (the
complement to blue) as the emitted light has more of these hues. To
further explain I would have to step back a bit to describe the
metals at a molecular level:
The atoms within metals are bonded together, as with all molecules,
by the sharing of their outer electrons. Within metals these valence
electrons are shared equally thus there is a sea of freely moving
electrons within a crystal lattice of positive ionic cores more or
less locked into place (for Ag, Au and Cu these lattice structures
are are all Face Center Cubic, FCC, which is part of the reason they
alloy so well together). These freely moving electrons are referred
to as an electron gas, their movement can be described with plasma
physics. A plasma is a medium with equal concentrations of positive
and negative charges, of which at least one charge is mobile. The
electron cloud and it’s great mobility is the reason why metals
conduct heat and electricity so easily. The reflection of light
within metals is the same interaction as the reflection of radio
waves off of the ionosphere. Freely moving ions within our atmosphere
absorb the energy of radio waves and then reemit them back down to us
back at earth.
The plasma field formed from the electron cloud and it’s attraction
to the positively charged crystal lattice can be modeled as a
harmonic oscillator (picture a weight on a spring). When energy is
applied to the plasma it is compressed like a spring and then pushes
back. This is similar to sound waves hitting a piano string or
crystal glass. There are certain harmonic frequencies whose energies
are propagated freely. But due to dampening effects, others are not,
their energies are absorbed. The photon becomes a plasmon, or a
propagation of energy within the plasma field, only to be
transformed back to a photon. Due to this optical polarization,
certain bands of frequencies of light pass through the electron cloud
entirely while others are absorbed and then reflected entirely like a
child bouncing off of a trampoline.
Heat, or thermal vibrational energy within the plasma is also
converted into photons, when these released photons are in the
optical range we see them as the colors that metals go through such
as what you see when you anneal metals. This is called
incandescence.
Within alloys there is a break up of the symmetry within the
underlying crystal lattice of positive cores. Fortunately most of the
alloying materials we use are Face Center Cubic (Ni, Pd, Pt, Au, Ag,
Cu) so they still try and line up with similar structure. There are
certain ratios that are more conducive to greater order. This is why
certain properties such as conductivity will raise and lower with the
ratio of two metals as they go in and out of ordered phases,
especially when annealed.
Calculating the plasma optics of alloyed metals is a bit beyond me,
but I would assume that the band gaps of transmitted wavelengths
becomes smaller as the quantity of copper and gold goes down within
an alloy thus the color becomes whiter.
Scott (former solid state physicist)
Thank you, Mr. Surpin, for your courteous effort to aid me in
understanding the nature of photons. I am aware of the apparent dual
nature of photons and that light has both waveform and a particulate
behaviors. As I stated and you confirmed, the electronic state of
atoms can be altered as the atom absorbs or emits photons. This is a
given. We were, however, discussing color and some of the things you
last wrote still confuse me.
While "flow" and "stream" are interchangeable in daily vocabulary, in physics they are two disparate concepts.
I will point out that I was using daily vocabulary and assumed that
you were too.
Photons have nothing to do with colors. For explanation I refer to my previous post.
In one fashion, you are correct. Color only exists in in one
location, the brain. Color (such as red) is the brain’s
interpretation of it has received that a sense organ,
the eye, has been stimulated by light with a wavelength around 6500
angstroms. Color is a perception and does not exist as such outside
our mind. Through investigation we have learned to associate colors
with light of various wavelengths and these wave forms with photons
of different energies. At one point you stated that a photon cannot
have more than one energy level. A “beam” of light, however, can
have photons at many different energies. As I am coming to see, you
discriminate strongly between light waves and photons. My
understanding is that whether you observe light as a particle or a
wave depends upon how the observation is made. Does light interact
with the photopigments in the retina as wave or as particle? It
interacts as light. The study of quantum mechanics can present many
apparent problems. Considering light to be discretely photon or
waveform in its interaction with matter can ease your “treatment” of
the phenomenon, but is your “treatment” complete?
As for the rest of your post. Studying interaction of light with what you call structures,
As for referring to atoms, molecules and crystals as structures, I
prefer that to calling them “thingies”. What do you have in mind? I
think I, too, will spend no more time on this. I feel that we both
know the source of our disagreements. On my part I confess that a
biophysicist has a slightly different world view relative to others
and that this can complicate matters of adjusting understandings.
There is also the possibility that I am just being
argumentative–Nah, that’s not true. It has been interesting
communicating with you. Gerald Vaughan
So the choice becomes what to sacrifice. It is either the truth, or the diplomacy. For me it is not even a choice.
Leonid,
Above is your reply implying justification for ridiculing another
member of the forum because of a differing opinion about a mechanism
contributing to the the color of a gold alloy as opposed to what you
think it may be.
The administrator of Orchid has reminded us that this is a flame
free forum and that we should adhere to the subject of the thread. My
post today is in no way meant to be a flame nor is it off topic since
it is my response to something germane to the discussion and that
being qualification of your comments regarding my post.
Absent from your quest for “truth” as you believe it to be, is a
civil dialog. If one can not allow reasonable discussion to exist in
cases of disagreement then all we are left with is a one sided
argument or a lecture. This is most often the outcome when a
condescending attitude or ridicule clouds or inhibits the necessary
dialog. Secondly, when a reply to your posts are made consistent with
knowledge and facts of supporting does not concur with
your “truth”, you are desultory in response and refuse to have
dialog… a tactic of changing subjects or moving on to minor points
which become targets of your scorn. Seldom do you concede a point or
apologize when in error.
The net result of your efforts to impose a singular view may seem to
you to succeed in part because the original post is not re-quoted and
becomes obscured. (Lack of complete background on the subject. Many
readers are then left wondering what the tempest in this tea pot is
all about.) And then again, these same efforts might not succeed
simply because of your take on how to have an interaction within a
social group; this group having a mutual interest that exceeds yours.
Your take being that diplomacy does not even figure into the
discussion may be totally undermining that which you wish to achieve.
Consider that point. This matters to me and very likely other readers
as well.
Leonid I applaud you for stating your position openly and how you
choose to conduct your life with matters pertaining to what you
perceive to be the truth. This certainly explains for me why your
posts are often not only abrasive, but it also completely discloses
your unwillingness to participate on an adult level of civil
discussion. As you are a man who so bluntly asserts his position with
pride, I am sure you understand that I am in no way meaning to insult
you as I am just detailing here of my difficulties in having a dialog
with you.
Truth as I have always understood can stand on its own without a
sideshow. Diplomacy and good manners do nothing to undermine truth.
J Collier Metalsmith
Above is your reply implying justification for ridiculing another member of the forum because of a differing opinion about a mechanism contributing to the the color of a gold alloy as opposed to what you think it may be.
Since ancient times philosophers have wondered about nature of human
existence. Popular view is that Kant was able to resolve several
contradiction and present a unified view, which can be summarized in
“cogito ergo sum”. I personally always believed that “brain in a
vat” argument never has been given a good counter, and it does
encompasses cogito ergo sum.
I understand that you find my way of communicating objectionable.
Here is what you can do. Imagine that you are brain in a vat. That
shall make me a figment of your imagination. Just turn it off.
Leonid Surpin
As for referring to atoms, molecules and crystals as structures, I prefer that to calling them "thingies". What do you have in mind?
Sometimes it is good to go back and to take a look how all this
argument started. And it started with color of metal. Gemstones are
different story. That is why they are so interesting.
Color of metal is controlled by refractive index. Refractive index
is an animal of wave theory of light. It is useless to talk about
photon interaction, quantum mechanics, and all other interesting
stuff. Physics is not a settled science, so everything has several
ways of looking at it. But it is not what we are after.
Understanding how refractive index can influence appearance of metals
is of significant importance to goldsmiths. It is quite regrettable
that this discussion took this esoteric turn.
Leonid Surpin