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Argentium 970 & 940


#1

I found out today that G&S no longer sells Argentium 970 because it
has been discontinued by patent owner. The new product is Argentium
940 for casting. Has anyone tried this or know why AS940 has been
introduced?

Jamie

p.s. I’m not trying to reopen the prior discussion regarding
Argentium versus Sterlium; just curious about Argentium 940. Thanks


#2

Hi Guys,

An aside on this :-

  1. “If an alloy is no longer in production, does this mean we can
    make it for our personal use?”

  2. “If an alloy is no longer in production, does this mean we can
    make that alloy for our clients?”

I’m fairly sure about the answer for the first question, but
wouldn’t mind some confirmation.

Absolutely unsure about the second question.

Regards Charles A.


#3
If an alloy is no longer in production, does this mean we can make
it for our personal use?" 

First we have to assume there is indeed a still enforceable patent
for the alloy in your country.

CAN you make it? Yes Would you violate the patent owners rights doing
so? Yes (unless they’ve explicitly given permission) Would making it
be illegal? I don’t believe there are any countries in which it would
be illegal but it would be a civil violation and you could be sued.
Would you be sued? Would you be caught? Probably not but it’s your
risk to take.

If an alloy is no longer in production, does this mean we can make
that alloy for our clients? 

Same answers as above but the probability of getting caught and sued
goes up the longer you infringe the patent and the more blatant your
efforts. A patent holder in the USA has 6 years in which to come
after you if you make or sell or import an infringing product in the
USA. Other countries may vary.

If it were your patent what would you want people to do?

Large corporations get patents all the time that they never intend
to use EXCEPT to exercise their rights to block you with the threat
of or actual suit.

James E. White


#4
I found out today that G&S no longer sells Argentium 970 because
it has been discontinued by the patent owner. The new product is
Argentium 940 for casting. Has anyone tried this or know why AS940
has been introduced? 

I received the following from Peter Johns (Argentium
inventor) in response to my Orchid inquiry, and thought I’d share
with anyone else who is interested:

  "Argentium Silver now has several new manufacturers world
  wide. Argentium is also now a family of alloys produced by
  specialist companies for further enhancement of our products.
  For this reason titles have been changed. 940 is the
  classification number G&S have given to the Original Argentium
  alloy. 970 is now called, Argentium Pure. G&S may not be
  stocking this high silver casting alloy but it can be
  purchased from Legor in New York."

#5

Hi James,

Firstly this is a theoretical discussion, and I have no interest in
producing my own Argentium silver, of any variety. There may be
people that like the discontinued alloy for whatever reason, and
still want to use if for personal “non-commercial” use.

Your points are very interesting James. However I think civil suits
are basically the same and focus on loss of income (damages)?

If I was making something for personal use, with an alloy that’s no
longer in production, there’s no loss of income, so there’s no case.

If I were to make the alloy for resale, then there’s a case, because
there’s a “potential” loss of income. Meaning that there’s a market
that the original IP holder didn’t think viable, but they have a
right to.

If it were my patent, naturally, I would want people to buy my
product. However I could only expect to be covered by the current
laws. A civil suit is based on loss of income (damages), if there’s
no income loss there’s really no case.

It’s not about what I would want, but what I can legally enforce.

The other side of the coin too, is that if I stop making an alloy
and a company with more money that I have decides to infringe my IP,
then I will be tied up for years in court, until I run out of funds.
This can also happen with any patent.

It’s very true that large corporations “sit” on a lot of valuable
inventions, and competative inventions, however they’re only covered
commercially. If someone wants to make something for themselves with
no view for profit there’s not really much a patent owner can do.

Regards Charles A.


#6

Charles,

Firstly this is a theoretical discussion, and I have no interest
in producing my own Argentium silver, of any variety. There may be
people that like the discontinued alloy for whatever reason, and
still want to use if for personal "non-commercial" use. 

If just a a theoretical question it is not worth thinking about. If
you really want 970 then buy 940, pay the maker his license fees and
alloy it up to 970. It might not be an exact copy of the real stuff
but should be close, and you can sleep with a clear conscience

jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand


#7
CAN you make it? Yes Would you violate the patent owners rights
doing so? Yes (unless they've explicitly given permission) Would
making it be illegal? I don't believe there are any countries in
which it would be illegal but it would be a civil violation and you
could be sued. Would you be sued? Would you be caught? Probably not
but it's your risk to take. 

I was once told by an engineer with an interest in IP that this was
not true in the UK - and I believe there may also be exclusions for
research and development in the US? I’d be curious to hear
otherwise, not that I have any plans to make Argentium 940.

Kit


#8

Hi JeffD,

If just a a theoretical question it is not worth thinking about.
If you really want 970 then buy 940, pay the maker his license fees
and alloy it up to 970. It might not be an exact copy of the real
stuff but should be close, and you can sleep with a clear
conscience 

I should clarify that… theoretical for me, but not for others. My
main concern was that the 970 alloy was no longer in production.

However it has been discussed in other posts that the 970 is still
available upon request. My concern is no longer an issue.

Regards Charles A.