Appropriate gauge for flush setting

I worked with an ex-manager of Longines, and he told us that's how
diamonds are set into watch dials, except they are press fit and
that's all - no rubbing, no burnishing. The seats are
drilled/reamed, and micrometer-graded diamonds are pressed into
them, and that's it... 

That is how all the ‘modern’ watch pivot hole jewels are mounted -
i.e. those used in watches for the last 60 or more years. The jewels
are thin flat disks of, usually, synthetic ruby or sapphire and are
finished to a precise diameter and pressed into holes reamed 0.01mm
undersize. I.e. a 1.60mm diameter stone is pressed into a hole
1.59mm diameter. These stones stay firmly in place despite the
pressure of the working parts on them and the rattling of the pinion
arbors against them for many years. Indeed, the accurate running of
the watch depends upon the stones staying precisely in the place in
which they are put. I have often wondered why diamonds in jewellery
are not set the same way but have assumed that it is becaus= e they
are usually set in relatively soft gold rather than the hard brass of
watch plates and that the decorative aspect of retaining beads etc.
is part of the overall design. Pressed in jewels would certainly be
easier to set.

Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK

Peter thanks for the lucid description of your flush setting process.

But with the scope, I have to work harder to keep the work at the
focal point of the scope as I work and rotate the work, so it ends
up slower... 

GRS has an engraving ball that one can manipulate to keep the work
centered in the 'scope without moving the entire ball. I don’t know
if it would be cost effective, but it is certainly convenient.

KPK

so it's contacting the metal at about a 30 degree angle, a bit
shallower than John's description 

That’s pretty much how I do it, too. The 45 degree tool method I laid
out requires the stone to be tight in the hole to begin with, and a
more progressive rubbing is more forgiving of that. I think the
biggest thing that the curious can walk away with from this thread,
as Peter has somewhat un-knowingly illustrated, is the level of
precision that “real” setters - people who set stones for a living -
deal with. Yes, you can just bang in stones in many settings. You can
gouge out bearing cuts in prongs, slap in a stone and walk away, but
that’s not great setting or even fine setting. And setting as a field
of expertise gets progressively more difficult and demanding. That’s
one reason why there are times when it’s better not to pretend to be
one, and just send it out to a pro. It’s also why good work habits
and an ability to work and see to a level of precision is essential.
Fine jewelry isn’t a genre, it’s jewelry that’s fine - worked at a
.01mm tolerance and the like. It’s a state of mind…

What works works. Can’t argue with success. Hammering is fine on a
curved surface but on a dead flat plane it gets tricky. On a curve
you can dress the tool marks away by following the curve with a file
or wheel. Flat, well you don’t have much material to play with and
retain a flat reflective appearance.

Someone mentioned, and forgive me I forgot who, having a shallow
angle to your tool when you burnish the stone in place. I’ve found
the same thing. Related to that is the shape of the tool. I start
with a bluntish tool for the first go-round and switch to a finer
point to finish it up. You want a profile that will get in tight to
the pavilion but not be so sharp as to the gouge the metal creating a
bur. I disagree though with carbide. yeah it takes a durable finish
and leaves a nice ‘bright cut’ but I have been known to nick the
occasional sapphire or ruby this way. And what a pain to remove a
securely set but damaged stone!

As for going around in quick little circles…I find this a good way
to slip out of the ‘bezel’ and scratch the mounting, particularly
when the stone is set with a shallow ‘slot’ or on a tight radius. Yet
I still try it sometimes, go figure.

Larger stones do not need as much thickness to the metal as smaller
stones. All you need is enough to account for pavilion depth, girdle
thickness plus a little bit more to catch the crown. A one carat
would look pretty doinky if the table was flush with the piece. Plus,
I think you would have trouble burnishing the metal that far down
into the hole.

This is not my area of expertise but I would expect that there's
more than one way. Please share. 

You have a pristine surface with a hole drilled in it, and you want
to set a stone (diamond) straight into it - what the metal is
matters but not so much. One thing you must do is make a hole that
the stone fits into. You could drill a hole to size and cram the
diamond into it, hoping it will go straight (bad idea without a
machine shop), you could also drill it to size and insert a tube,
which would become your bearing. Or you could ream the hole with a
ball bur, a bud bur or a setting bur (never touch them, myself) or
undercut it with a hart bur. You could also use something like a
cone square and try to make it round by hand, but that defeats the
whole purpose of having burs…but it could be done. I’m sure
there’s about 20 other ways I either don’t know or don’t want to
write.

To push down the metal you could use a bezel pusher, a burnisher, a
bent rod in the flexshaft or likely other things. You can get a
punch and pound on it with a hammer, or use an electric hammer… You
can even solder the dang thing in, which I actually have done,
before. Again, there’s probably other ways, and if they work, why
not?

It is important to be able to see the most elegant solution, though,
and that is to take care, and work with skill, and seat the stone
properly and then just rub it in. Why take a carefully prepared
surface, pound it into submission, and then have to go back and
restore all that surface? Again, I’ve done it myself but that
doesn’t make it right. Why knock all the holes out of round with a
hammer just to have to go back and restore each and every one to
some semblance of symmetry? Why not just set them properly, with
skill and care, to begin with? All of the above will probably work,
if done well, there’s really not a right way, and people have to
work within their skill level, always. There is a “best” way,
though, plus the setter who uses it will be pumping out 40
stones/hour @ $5 per, too…Efficient and elegant. Also
unforgiving and requiring a fairly high skill level…

After drilling out where we want the stones, we cut the seat for
the stone with a ball bur just a little bit smaller than the stone. 

Why a ball bur instead of a setting bur? And what do you mean by a
“bearing bur”-- a hart bur? A setting bur?

Thanks
Noel

I use a bud bur to bur a hole just a hair smaller than the stone. For
instance, if I’m setting a 3 mm stone, I’ll use a bur that’s maybe
3.3 mm in diameter to make the hole opening 2.9 mm. Then I take a
hart bur, maybe 2.7 mm, and ever so gently cut a small, level seat
for the stone. Don’t cut too deeply, or you’ll have a hard time
tightening. Angle the stone into the hole as you would when channel
setting, and pop the stone into place with a brass pusher. If it
won’t go, open the hole a tiny bit on 2 sides where the girdle will
be passing through on it’s way down. I then use a hammer handpiece to
hammer the metal, using the least amount of force necessary,
depending on the amount of metal to move, and whether it’s yellow
gold, 14K white, 18K white (very hard), or platinum.

Yes, it does leave a flat spot around the stone, but if you don’t
make the seat too large, you don’t have to hammer very much or file a
whole lot to get it into shape. Then I take a half point graver,
usually a left one because I’m right handed, and bevel around the
stone.

Lauren

...as Peter has somewhat un-knowingly illustrated, is the level of
precision that "real" setters... 

Uh, John, “unknowingly”? … 'scuse me? :slight_smile:

If I weren’t aware of the precision involved, I wouldn’t have used
quite so many words to detail in quite such exacting detail every
step of my way…

('nuther grin)

But you’re right to point it out. Stone setting is the realm of the
perfectionist. All of the really good stone setters I know are
totally detail oriented perfectionists. Often, our (or someone elses)
best work is a target for criticism, since nothing is quite good
enough unless it’s pretty much perfect, and how many of us quite
manage that every time, especially measured by our own standards.
Usually, everyone else looks at it and says it’s perfect, even while
we’re still worrying about some detail nobody else can seem to see
that we wish we’d done some tiny bit differently… And heaven help
our poor egos and self esteem should someone else actually find a
flaw…

By the way, to NeiltheJeweler, you disagree with carbide 'cause it
can scratch softer stones. If you reread my post, you’ll note that I
did address that, partly agreeing with you. With stones other than
diamonds, I only start it with carbide, then finish with steel, or
often just use steel, for the same reason. And you’ll note that I
mention that I do this only under magnification, my 10x loupe or a
microscope, precisely so that I can be sure of exactly where the tip
of the burnisher is, as well as how far I’ve moved the metal. That
addresses the issues both of being sure stones are fully set and
tight, and the issues of not damaging the stones. With good
magnification, a bit of practice, and a burnisher that’s NOT a sharp
point at the end, you CAN do rubies and saphires with a carbide
burnisher. But you do need to be quite careful to avoid damaging
them.

cheers
Peter

Why a ball bur instead of a setting bur? 

No doubt Peter will give his take on what was his quote. To me, what
are called “setting burs” - straight sided burs with an angle on the
end, are more than just useless, they are downright dangerous to the
work. I have no doubt there are some who disagree, which is fine
(let’s just not turn it into a flame war, K?) I see graphics showing
them being used on prong setting (Wrong!!), so then the prongs are
all cut away, and then need to be pushed over 90 deg. For doing
something like flush setting or bead work, the bur must be EXACTLY
the right size and angle to match the stone (diamonds come in an
infinite range of sizes), and then you have straight walls, too -
not the best situation, usually. If one were press fitting diamonds
with a jeweling press, it would likely be the right tool - at the
bench I for one have no use for them. I have them, and every once in
a while I’ll steel wool off the rust and use one for opening up and
bottoming a bezel or something, but that’s about it…If they had a
purpose I would happily use them, but they just don’t, to me…

1 Like
Someone mentioned, and forgive me I forgot who, having a shallow
angle to your tool when you burnish the stone in place. I've found
the same thing. Related to that is the shape of the tool. 

Even though the question (appropriate gauge…) was answered long
ago, this has gone in a useful direction, I think. I believe that
hand engraving is the essence of craftsmanship, and one of the most
difficult skills to truly master. Just a piece of steel and your
hand - and eyes. Burnish setting isn’t quite that daunting, but it’s
similar. Getting a stone well set into clean metal without making a
mess and getting it clean and straight and truly circular in the
burnishing is deceptively difficult. And that’s not even getting
into fancy shapes. Sometimes it’s the simple things that get you…

you disagree with carbide 'cause it can scratch softer stones. 

Peter, It was not my intention to suggest anything ‘wrong’ with the
way you do it. I disagreed only for my own style of things, with my
own hands. I can tell from all your posts that you do indeed know
what you are doing. You’ve developed a technique that works well for
you. My own variation works for me. So we’ve each put our dishes on
the smorgasbord here. Each is tasty in its way.

illustrating that everyone has their own favorite way to do a
thing... 

Yup

I always found the allset to be a rather clumsy tool. I prefer a
good true running quick change handpiece over the #30, so the
allset is a bother for me just to use that #30 handpiece, but it
also usually seems overkill. If the idea is simply to control
depth, I prefer good magnification, so I can simply SEE where I'm
cutting.

While I completely disagree with your asessment of the Fordom Allset
system, as it works perfectly for me every time, and I keep it set
up with an extra #30 handpiece all the time (in fact I detest a #30
handpiece as it is clumsy in essence, and the allset is the only
reason i use one at all, the others are sitting in my tool taboret-
BUT the system does have an adapter for most slimmer,quick change
handpieces- so when i have extra cash I may buy one when gold is not
sucking up all my extra cash-which I have none of!). I do agree with
your use of a bud bur for cutting a gypsy or roman setting by hand.

It makes it even easier to modify the bur with a diamond or heavy
duty slitting/cut off wheel, depending on the kerf relative to the
width of the seat you want to have in the end. You can modify a bur
to cut out a seat (it is more efficient than simply using a
cylindrical bur) or have it shaped to form a shelf: curved above the
stone,and hollowed beneath the girdle. It has always worked well for
me, (however the Allset is faster and easier and makes cutting many
settings quick,and precise) once you get the hang of it. It produces
a nice strdy rim of metal which you control in modifying the bur(s)
by choice of cut-off/slitting disc And to make the rim thicker you
need just place the cut off wheel under the last slit and then the
depth is doubled (you wil probaly need to stone,file or at least
burnish any burs left by the cutting wheel off to get a nicely formed
rim of metal as the end product). I keep a few burs of different
sizes for increasingly larger stones just for cutting seats in the
gypsy style at the bench to save time when I have to seat one stone
or replace and repair one piece. It is more economical time wise then
setting up the aallset system ,provided you don’t keep it set up. .
if it is set up always,it is then a matter, for me of stone shape
that dictates which tool I use.

rer

I didn’t read all of the replies - and the likelihood that this has already been said is high…

Also, I’m not an expert by any means. I’m also getting ready to do some flush/gypsy settings this week for the first time. I have probably 20+ books that I’m researching from - I read that one easy way to get around this issue is to carefully solder two sheets together, then cut out the shape you’re looking for afterwards. Silver is expensive, and so I can’t just go and buy super thick silver whenever I want. I do however have 21 gauge and 16 gauge sheet - so I plan on taking strips of each to make the appropriate thickness.

Good luck, I hope we both do well!

Edit to add: OH MY, this was posted in 2008!! Hahaha! I’m such a newb, as the saying goes. Ganoskin was preseneting this topic to me as a “newer” topic that had just been posted. No idea why it came up. I thought I was replying to a recent question. I’m such a silly one. :smiling_face_with_tear:

1 Like

Hi Lily,

consider adding an under-gallery to the metal “top”, to increase depth…something like side walls

or a wire rim soldered onto the finger hole(s)…to raise the top up off the finger

as a fun addition to your project…

julie

3 Likes

Mmmmmm!!! You always point me towards precisely the kind of things I NEED to see! I’ll probably take screen shots of these. Julie, you are the best! <3

Hi,

it could be a pendant too…flat top…gypsy set…wire soldered underneath at rim…

julie

1 Like

That second one with the tiny stones is a cool idea - would you add the raising wire before or after closing the ring? I’ve also never done a ring with that sort of curve. Something to ponder. Thanks!

@peterrowe

Hi Peter,

I know this is an old post so a reply isn’t necessary but I just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your input regarding flush settings. I have never done flush settings (YET!) but I’m interested in learning and I’ve begun reading up on how to do them. Being budget minded, I’m trying to determine the minimum amount of tools needed to set 2mm and 3mm round cz’s. It’s really great to learn different people’s techniques, tips, and tricks for a successful flush setting so thank you very much for sharing!

Tammy

1 Like

Hi Lily,

There’s very useful info in this forum. I find myself reading and replying to topics 10+ years old. I’m getting ready to try my very first attempt at flush settings. I finally received my setting bits yesterday and can’t wait to try!

I’ve done LOTS of research also and another way to make your sheet metal thicker besides soldering 2 sheets together is to solder a jump ring onto it but you probably knew that already. I suppose it could go on the front or back depending on one’s design. I plan to try it both ways and also plan to practice with copper.

Btw, I don’t know where you purchase your practice CZ’s but I have to be very budget minded and with that said, I have found the BEST DEALS on small CZ’s to practice with on Temu’s website and larger ones at an Etsy shop. Temu is sort of, for lack of a better term, a Chinese Amazon equivalent with MUCH BETTER PRICES! In fact, I have found the exact same items on Temu that are on Amazon and they would be half the price. Many different shops sell through Temu and the prices are excellent. It’s totally free shipping and considering orders ship from China, I usually receive my orders super fast… sometimes within 1 week to the US. It is a legit site and I am in no way affiliated with Temu so I gain nothing by telling you about it. If someone doesn’t feel safe ordering from them, I’d recommend paying with a PayPal account like I do. Also, being the skeptic that I am sometimes, I never order high price merchandise just in case there is a problem; however, I’ve been ordering craft and some jewelry making stuff from them on a regular basis ever since they started selling in the US almost a year ago and I’ve never had any problems with not getting my items or with my items not being as advertised.

I understand how accumulating tools and all the supplies for a jewelry making hobby can become very expensive so I thought I would share with you my one way of cutting costs on faceted CZ’s for practice settings. By not having to pay for shipping, I can afford to buy double the amount CZ’s. Anyway , sorry this was such a long message but I hope it’s helpful and if not, I hope I didn’t take too much of your time. Jewelers, including novice jewelers such as myself, have to stick together! :blush: Good luck to you (although you are probably a pro by now!).

Tammy O :slightly_smiling_face: