What a waste of a huge amount of gold when the Mint claims it can’t
afford to produce the penny.
It seems that we are really getting into some interesting
conversations about gold. Our favorite topic starter said by
definition a goldsmith must make things out of gold. But I am
confused. A silversmith is traditionally someone who makes Utensils
like bowls, vases, forks, etc, An amazing and rare art seldom
practiced anymore. But what if a master jeweler only makes jewelry
out of silver or platinum? He could be a prodigy making jewelry with
the same techniques as any Other goldsmith. Would that person still
becalled a goldsmith since the traditional techniques are the same?
It is actually easier to solder gold than it is to solder silver. To
say that youmust work in gold to be a goldsmith actually is a mute
point since if you like tradition so much then we can’t call anyone a
silversmith unless he makes candle holders and utensils.
Off topic… I notice my posts are misspelled only after posting.
Is there a glitch when emailing from iPad? There are spaces that
magically appear.
Rick Powell
I must have missed your post on gold dominance. In any case, 14k is 58.5% gold. Which is more than 50%, which makes, it seems, gold the dominant material in the alloy.
This is true in that gold is 58.5%…by weight and therefore value.
However, in terms of actual content it is a bit of a trick as gold is
around twice as dense and silver and 2.5x that of copper. It can be
likened this way: which would you say you had more of (by appearance
and hence volume) one pound of lead or a pound aluminum? You could
make many more items from a pound of aluminum than a pound of lead
due to the differences in density and this effect comes up again when
we determine the gold content of an object based upon gold’s
percentage of the overall mass rather than the actual “quantity”
(amount of atoms present relative to atoms of another substance) of
gold present in the piece. From a price perspective it is irrelevant,
but from a technical “content” perspective and the effects it has on
the material’s properties, it is quite different.
Erich C. Shoemaker
However you are very wrong, as 14k is gold according to the US standards.
I do not live by what politicians say. Science says only 18k and higher is gold.
Just imagining Errol Flynn saying “Welcome to Sherwood”
Science considers anything other than elemental gold as an impure
alloy 
Regards Charles A.
If you are interested in alloys and mixtures for solders then have a
look at the Ganoksin Project’s antique books. The following have
numerous recipes for solders.
best
Charles
Fine gold to me is an interesting element, and historically in the Anglo Saxon times, it was pretty much all fine gold.
Native gold is typically somewhere between 5% and 50% silver with
traces of other elements as well. Also the ancients were just a
likely as we are to alloy gold to make it go farther or to get more
value from it. They also were familiar with techniques for depleting
the surface metal of base metals by heat and dissolution of oxides
by using organic acid to create surface enriched areas. So these
alloyed golds whether native or man made can be subject to
corrosion. This would tend to make the higher karat items last
longer so it is likely that we just find more pure gold items from
great antiquity. Anyhow the below resources may provide some
interesting reading.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep803e
Nautical Archaeology Program – Department of Anthropology [PDF file]
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
But when I read something like what I have quoted above, it makes me feel like to be a good jewelry maker, that I can only care about rich people and treat those who aren't rich as if they don't deserve to adorn themselves with jewelry. Is that true?
You can figure it out for yourself. Here is some numbers to
consider.
If you go to my website, you will find some videos.
Eternity ring takes on average 40 hours to complete.
If it is made with 10 pointers, it takes 24 stones.
Size 18 is about 12g in platinum.
What do you think 2.4 carat of diamond cost in good quality? It will
be stupid to use crap if it takes 40 hours to complete.
How much do you think I should be paid per hour.
The guy who changes oil in my car charges me $110 per hour.
Do you think I am entitled to at least that much ? I hope that
calculator is clicking.
When the number is ready, add to it overhead like rent, utility,
insurance, all the other stuff. Do you have the number ? Do you know
any poor people who could afford it ? If you do, let me know. I would
love to talk to them.
Leonid Surpin
A silversmith is traditionally someone who makes Utensils like bowls, vases, forks, etc, An amazing and rare art seldom practiced anymore. But what if a master jeweler only makes jewelry out of silver or platinum?
If it really matters to you, you can call yourself what ever you
like.
You can be full of pride and call yourself “Master [insert function
here]”, and that’s fine, but a problem happens when you have
mastered many disciplines. It gets to be a mouthful, and words are
only worth something is someone else recognises them.
I prefer to just be called “Charles”, and in certain circles that
enough
Kindest regards Charles A.
P. S. Was going to list all the fields I’m trained and skilled in,
but thought it was too much of a w*nk.
With the push towards white metals at the millenium, I have found that 9ct white gold is far more wearable than the 18ct white gold due to the better colour (no Ni)
Cool! Anyone have a recipe for 9K white gold without nickel? Gwen,
how does the color hold up over time vis-a-vis tarnish? I always
worked with gold and silver for color contrast, but the tarnishing
of the silver was always annoying. So now I use 14K white palladium,
but I’m always on the lookout for a nice non-tarnishing white
alloy…
Janet in Jerusalem
I do not live by what politicians say. Science says only 18k and higher is gold.
Science calls only absolute pure chemical/metal (Au) as gold or
elements. Anything else is a compound or as we would refer to it
here, and alloy.
What ever happened to the discussion about making your own solder?
That is what I would like to read about, not this constant bickering
about minutia about what is gold and what is not. Get back on topic
please.
Aggie feeling like a kindergarten teacher reprimanding the kids
Good point Charles,
the fine gold torcs also ‘work harden’ over time and become brittle.
Of course if they were 18 kt the copper would be attacked by the
elements.
What if the copper had been replaced with fine silver for 18 kt?
Richard
Hi should have mentioned my gold ring price was wholesale,
that’s how I have to compete where I live, sales outside the poor
rural valley I live in are a different price altogether.
Point made was you can use 18 kt and make a profit.
Richard
Hi Rick et al
A silversmith is traditionally someone who makes Utensils like bowls,
vases, forks, etc,
Once upon a time it was known that silversmiths used gold as well.
I went to The School for Silversmiths, we all worked gold too. Only
18 kt or higher.
Does the term smithing refer to the use of hammers?
'cause I love to bash the sh*t out of heavy weight metal.
Did that today making 4x2mm half round rings in sterling, leather
mallet whack!
These rings amaze me. I sell so many of these because they are so
strong and people love the simple design. I sell a lot to guys who
have lost their wedding ring, again.
I sell a lot of gold wedding rings, many to the budget restricted.
This I say is an emotional experience, not a monetary investment.
I sell an 18 kt to the wife and suggest the husband gets a sterling
ring (sorry guys but we in the trade see what you do to your
jewellery, and it ain’t pretty)
and they spend the balance on a night in a 5 star hotel.
“HELL YEAH” SAY 9 WIVES OUT OF 10.
These women remember me and become good customers.
The husbands remember the 5 star night and buy gifts for the wife
from me.
WIN WIN!
Richard
Richard. first let me say I like your post. that said I consider
myself a Goldsmith/platinum smith. I have worked in them for over 40
years. I lived in the U S A where the standard was 14K. I love
working in higher content gold. have done many things in
24,22,20,18, etc. I also work in silver, bronze. OMG not bronze. And
pewter to name a few and even some times I do the unimaginable. I
combine them into one piece…
I also make very good money doing this. Am I a goldsmith. yes. I am
also aartist and chose to Paint with my metals now and not be
limited to 4 colors, yellow,rose, green and white… I find it more
fun and my clients from around the world seem to like buying what I
play with…
Try looking outside of the box. you might also find it is fun. or
you might not and if not that is great too because you are a great
person anyway. just my thoughts…
I notice my posts are misspelled only after posting. Is there a glitch when emailing from iPad? There are spaces that magically appear.
It’s caused by these evil little internet gnomes that hide in all
our computers and change our spelling right before our posts show up
online. And for some strange reason they seem to do it more when
it’s late and we’ve had a wee bit to drink.
A plumber makes $50-100 per hour. a goldsmith should do at least the
same. my thoughts. we are more valuable then a plumber and most of
us have way more $ 's invested in our tools not to mention the time
to learn our trade. trynot to under charge. Far easier to drop your
price then to raise it with the customer looking you in the face…
I know we all love what we are doing. I also love my family and like
havinga little to share with them when needed…
Make lots of jewelry. and please charge for your skill and time…
You can be full of pride and call yourself "Master [insert function here]", and that's fine,
When my nephew got his PhD in physics, we pitched in and got him a
notebook computer as a gift. As another gift Iwent to considerable
trouble to put together a “nerd pack” - a pocket protector full of
geeky pencils and pens. On the front I put a label that said “Doktor
Mike” - he is utterly, strictly, absolutely “Michael”. This is an
illustrious physicist who had an experiment for the space staion
scheduled, but it fell through. He thought it was hilarious and he
still has it, put away.
I know the finest jewelers on the west coast, production and art,
both. None of them refer to themselves with superlatives, which
always makes me chuckle anyway. Just John suits me just fine, too.
Sometimes what you think you are saying is actually saying something
else, you know?
Leonid makes a good point here. I have folks ask all the time if it
would be cheaper to make a piece out of silver or lower karat gold. I
explain to them that the cost of materials is minor compared to our
labor costs. We charge $75.00 to $100.00 per hour for our labor.
Wholesale. A custom mounting starts at $750.00, labor only and goes
up from there. This is for a plain mounting with no stone setting
costs. I will charge you that regardless of the materials. Copper? No
problem, but it will still cost the same in labor.
About 20 years ago I developed some repetitive motion issues with my
hands. Rather than make 100 rings a day, I had to start working
smarter not harder. Now Tim and I make fewer pieces for more money.
Do poor people deserve adornment? Yes. But don’t expect me to do it.
I just had neck surgery because of 43 years at the bench and 48
hunched over a guitar. I can’t afford to beat my body up any more. It
hurts and it’s expensive. I’ll be paying for my last surgery for
months to come.
Have fun and make lots, but not too much, jewelry.
Jo Haemer
timothywgreen.com
Science calls only absolute pure chemical/metal (Au) as gold or elements. Anything else is a compound or as we would refer to it here, and alloy.
No, alloys are definitely not compounds they are mixtures or more
precisely solutions.
What ever happened to the discussion about making your own solder? That is what I would like to read about, not this constant bickering about minutia about what is gold and what is not. Get back on topic please.
While I agree with your general assessment of where this thread has
gone if you want to come play teacher maybe you should research your
lesson plan a bit more.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
Does the term smithing refer to the use of hammers? 'cause I love to bash the sh*t out of heavy weight metal. These rings amaze me. I sell so many of these because they are so strong and people love the simple design. I sell a lot to guys who have lost their wedding ring, again.
Smith usually refers to a metal worker, although I have heard of
wordsmiths :-\
There is nothing more honest, and stress relieving than belting the
cr*p out of metal. If I go into the forge stressed out, I don’t come
out that way
Can you send me a picture of one of these rings? Or better still
post an image?
Regards Charles A.