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Air fuel tips for small little torch


#1

I have really grown to love my gentec small torch, the only negative
is that the disposable oxygen cylinders I use don’t last long
enough. Most of the time I end up using one of the cheap air/propane
torches from bernzomatic, but mine doesn’t like to be pointed
downward, it tends to flame out. Has anyone ever heard of any
air/propane or compressed air/propane tips for the small/little
torch? Gentec makes a air/acetylene tip that works with the small
torch(product code “gastp” comes in 3 or 4 sizes), but I don’t think
it would work with propane. I just bought a full size oxygen
regulator, soon I’ll get acylinder, but there are times when I’d
rather use cheaper air/propane at times.

Erik Savoie


#2
but mine doesn't like to be pointed downward, it tends to flame
out. Has anyone ever heard of any air/propane or compressed
air/propane tips for the small/little torch? 

Air/propane flame is much better for jewellery work than anything
else, with exception of working with platinum. I also using Little
Torch almost exclusively. Few years ago, I did some experiments
trying to construct air/propane head for Little Torch. I had some
success with it. My DVD Coronet Cluster was shot entirely using this
head. But if there is a working fan in the shop, the flame becomes
unstable. You can find description of this head on my website. The
key to overcome this is correct ratio between tube diameter and side
orifices. To find it experimentally would require more time that I
have and I was not able to locate equation describing the process.

Anyway, I had a lot of feedback on this article. Someone sent me a
picture of air/propane setup, available in Europe. It is not a Little
Torch, but small enough to be useful for jewellery work.

May be someone will know what I am talking about and post the info
again.

Leonid Surpin
studioarete.com


#3
Anyway, I had a lot of feedback on this article. Someone sent me a
picture of air/propane setup, available in Europe. It is not a
Little Torch, but small enough to be useful for jewellery work. 

It’s not the German Precision torch is it? CIA


#4
...Most of the time I end up using one of the cheap air/propane
torches from bernzomatic, but mine doesn't like to be pointed
downward, it tends to flame out. 

I’ve have the same problem, using a new torch head and propane tank.
This didn’t happen when I began making jewelry and only used a
propane torch. What can be done about this? It burns fine when the
torch is sitting upright.

Judy Bjorkman


#5
It's not the German Precision torch is it? 

That is it. German Precision torch.

Leonid Surpin
studioarete.com


#6

Leonid, I believe you might be talking about the Sievert torch. I
learned about it from Andrew Berry at atthebench.com

I’m in the US, so I wanted a US-made equivalent. I came upon Goss
torches, but in the end I couldn’t get one because having a BBQ-sized
propane tank in the house is illegal. Anyway, the Goss torch head was
a bit too large, but the guy told me that he is talking to Frank
Goss, the owner, and they are currently developing a small torch just
for jewelers.


#7
but in the end I couldn't get one because having a BBQ-sized
propane tank in the house is illegal. 

and dangerous, one exploded in Jeweler’s Row a few years ago in
Chicago:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/10p

Elaine
CreativeTextureTools.com


#8

The problem occurs because when you tip the tank upside down the
contents, which are liquid, get into the valve and come boiling out
into the torch stem. When the tank is in its “normal” upright
position that doesn’t happen and the torch works well because only
the vapourous form of the propane is passing through the valve, but
not the liquid.

Well here’s something you might do quite easily. The torch that you
screw onto the little bernz-o-matic propane tank has three basic
parts; the valve (at the tank end), the torch tip (at the “business
end”) and the length of the stem, that connects the two, usually
about 6" inches long. You could cut the stem about an inch or so
above the valve. Clean up the two cut ends of the tube and connect
them with a suitable length of flexible hose that will carry the
propane from the valve to the torch. There are probably some
sophisticated considerations about what type of hose to use - but
for what it’s worth I have one such arrangement I made about twenty
years ago using some transparent plastic tubing I bought at a hobby
shop - I think it is neoprene, meant to be used for fuel in model
airplane engines or something like that. You can also get this
tubing at pet stores where it might be used for bubblers in fish
tanks. Anyway, it is cheap and easy to cut. If you can find a couple
of really small hose clamps (Plumbing section at hardware store)
they will do to fix the tubing onto the stem. Or you can use some
soft iron wire to wrap a couple of turns tightly around the tubing
and twist good and tight onto the torch stem. Your only difficulty
might be finding a tubing of a suitable diameter, but it comes in a
variety of sizes and that shouldn’t be hard to do. If you live in a
place where there are shops specializing in plastics they should
have a wide selection. If you find a tube that is close but just a
tiny bit too small, you can stretch the opening by heating the end,
not too hot, boiling water might be hot enough, and then while it is
hot you can expand the end of the tube a bit by inserting a tapered
object - maybe the pointy end of a pencil if nothing more glamourous
can be found.

Do this and you can leave the tank standing in its upright position
on your bench and have the torch free to point up down or sideways
as needed. You could wrap some tape or other suitable material
around the stem at the business end, the part you’ll be holding in
your hand, so as to make it a comfortably gripped hand piece. If you
are using a large flame for extended periods the stem can get hot so
be sure any such additions you make to the “hand piece” are safe to
cope with the heat.

Some cautions.

1 - Remove the torch from the tank while you are doing the
modifications. 2) Fix the tank in place on or near your bench so you
don’t accidentally tip the tank over by pulling on the tube while
you are working with it. If nothing worse, it can knock things
around on the bench if it tips over.

Years ago somebody mentioned to me that this type of transparent
tubing is “not right” for propane or butane (whatever is in those
tanks) but my tubing shows no sign of wear or deterioration. It is
not under high pressure so It seems safe to me. Being transparent,
it would be easy to see if there were any visible changes occurring
inside the tube and I have seen none.

Good luck
Marty in Victoria


#9

Sievert is Swedish made, I have 4 tips for melting up to 100 grams to
very fine chain work, it works perfectly, upright down right side
right what ever direction.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep80hg

I use propane and work in the basement, if you make a habit of
checking yourconnections I can not see any problem, I have a tank of
2500 litre next to the house in the ground for heating and cooking
plus 2 tanks of 20kg for solder jobs and heating in the basement.

Here in Spain a lot of the apartments and houses use bottle gas
without any problem.

Peter
Spain (today 33 Celsius!)


#10

Propane comes in many sized containers. While fire departments
frown on having the big 5 ga. propane tanks indoors, they are pretty
relaxed about having the 1 lb. camping cylinders indoors. Depending
on use, these can last from a week up to a month or more. Why not
connect your propane/oxygen torch to a 1 lb. cylinder, and then just
refill your small cylinders from your big 5 ga. tank? On the
internet you can find refill valves that connect your 1 lb. cylinder
to your 5 ga. propane tank.

After putting the empty cylinder in the freezer for 15 min., you
screw it onto the big tank, turn the whole assembly upside down, open
the valve on the big tank, and your small cylinder is refilled in
about a minute. It’s quite simple to do, and you never need to throw
away another propane cylinder.

Jay Whaley


#11

You know I’m really glad that, in Australia, gas bottle safety is so
anal :wink: CIA


#12

There seem to be a few options for buying a new air/propane setup.
If I had the funds to do so, the Swiss torch can be used with
compressed air/propane, which burns hotter than an ambient air torch
but cost a pretty penny. Otto Frei sells a compressed air/propane
casting torch, they call it a German casting torch, that looks
promising. I’m contemplating wether I am gonna build a similar type
torch to that one, but with the ability to change to a smaller tip
for annealing and soldering/brazing. They sell the replacement tips
on their site, I just need to plan out a smaller tip, that I can
machine to fit the same sized torch body. It’ll take a good bit of
trial and error, and being a home engineer/test pilot can be very
dangerous. When I searched on google for air/propane tips for the
little torch, there was a generic link to a Ganoksin thread, but the
link to the thread was no longer functional and I wasn’t able to
find the thread in the archives.

Judy, bernzomatic/worthington sells an extension hose that allows
you to attach the generic torch heads they sell to one of the small
tanks. It allows you to leave the bottle sitting upright and still
be able to turn the torch flame any direction you desire. Model
334246 is the “universal torch extension hose”, they are available
at a few places including Home Depot for $15. I just find that their
torches are rather under powered, compared to other air/propane
torches I’ve used.

Erik Savoie


#13

There is a wire stand you can make for the cannisters that
eliminates the problem of thier falling down or being held in any
other position than workable. Go to any home store or look online at
bernzomatic’s disposable tank and torch set up- the design is easy to
fabricate out of cold rolled steel rod.

As for the tips, I use smith tips on a gentec “small torch” just
fine, in fact harbour freight has a 'smith/gentec" torch with a set
of tips that also fit the 3 torches. You can go to a welding supply
store and get tips for the “little torch” - they should fit with no
problem.


#14
but in the end I couldn't get one because having a BBQ-sized
propane tank in the house is illegal. and dangerous, >one exploded
in Jeweler's Row a few years ago in Chicago: I made about twenty
years ago using some transparent plastic tubing I bought at a
hobby shop - I think it is neoprene, meant to be used for fuel in
model airplane engines or something like that. You can also get
this tubingat pet stores where it might be used for bubblers in
fish tanks. Anyway, it is cheap and easy to cut. If you can find a
couple of really small hose clamps (Plumbing section at hardware
store) they will do to fix the tubing onto the stem. Or you can
use some soft iron wire to wrap a couple of turns tightly around
the tubing and twist good and tight onto the torch stem. Your only
difficulty might be finding a tubing of a suitable diameter, but
itcomes in a variety of sizes and that shouldn't be hard to do. 

The above made me speechless!!!
And shocked, how on heaven earth you can be so…

When I read the message above about alternative tubing I can not
believe the story, how you can take this kind of approach is beyond
believe! This create the risk of fire, exploding sounds very strange
a proper thank including the dedicated valve will give you ample
time to switch of the gas supply, given that you ONLY have the valve
open when working.

The tubing I use including connections are specially made for
bottled propane, the tubing has a date printed on it, what indicate
when it should be replaced. I believe the use of this kind of tubing
is obligatory in Spain.

When you use the right connections, designed for your tank and
maintain and check the connections once or twice a year, there
should not be a problem.

To make a long story short, propane can be as safe or dangerous as
you want, I assume when you work with acid you use proper gloves and
proper ventilation, you don’t pour it in a milk bottle and leave it
on the edge of your bench either

Peter
Spain


#15

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your email, I have to apologize, I was shooting from the
hipinstantly!

Propane bottle are very common in Spain (the 20 kg or so ones)and if
there is an accident, it is always because people use cheap tubing
from garden hose to what ever they find and self fabricated valves.

I reacted instantly, when I was reading about the use of not
dedicated tubing and was thinking before you know some one is going
to blow himself up to save some pennies.

From your email I realized that you know exactly what you are
doing! What can not be said always, as excedents proofs it. 

The two postings I referred to were separated in my original mail
but ended up merged because I had send it from my ipad what seems to
have that habit, or is it just me?

This reference to acid on the edge of the bench was not pointed at
your posting, but just a reminder in general that we should not
challenge destinyand be careful in what we do.

Again my apology for my instant reaction!
peterspain


#16

Hi

agree completely with Peter

The above made me speechless!!!!!!! And shocked, how on heaven
earth you can be so........ 

My torch is propane and air, the air tube is heavy duty clear
plastic, hey it is only air from bellows. The propane tube is heavy
duty industrial purpose built for propane. Each end has a purpose
designed hose clamp. This stuff is available from any camping gas
store. And it is not expensive, but who can put a price on one’s
life?

You got a freebie with the non-purpose built tubing, “the elephant
in the room”. AKA a disaster waiting to happen.

Please get your torches set up properly aka safely by a
professional.

Richard
Xtines Jewels


#17

I originally sent this as an “offline” message to the person who
reacted so strongly to my suggestion about how to modify a small
propane cylinder type torch so as to gain more freedom of movement
with the torch tip. His reaction, while obviously motivated by
safety concerns, may have given the impression that I had proposed
something quite insane and dangerous…

Having received my response (below), he has graciously apologized
for the tone of his comments, but for what it’s worth, I thought I
should post my reply to him so I am not written off as a lunatic by
any who didn’t quite understand whatever either one of us wrote.

I apologize as well for any lack of clarity in my original post.

Finally - I should be very happy to hear from anyone with specific
knowledge about any problems associated with neoprene tubing under
short-term, low pressure exposure to propane. Thanks.


#18

Yeah propane should only be used with a chemically resistant tubing,
it willcorrode through regular plastic tubing!!!

I’m on a limited budget as well, but with the purpose made extension
hose only costing $15, you should really avoid that kind of
modification. I may have said this earlier, but gentec makes a tip
for air/acetylene that fits the small torch. I’m gonna try that, it
may work for propane, but I might need to enlarge the tip slightly
to allow for fuel to be burned at once. That is the main difference
between acetylene tips I’ve used and propane, that propane has a
higher flow and consumption rate than acetylene tips.

Erik Savoie


#19

My experience with a name brand small little torch that uses the
disposable tanks was disastrous. If you are considering this,
compare the hoses on the different brands. The one’s on my torch
looked like they were just air hoses with a fabric wrapping on them.
There was a new leak in the hose (not at the connectors) every
couple months or so even though the unit was set up according to
their directions, using their stand, lines bled after use, and
placed on a stone table with a stone backsplash with no chemicals
nearby. My husband’s torch is still set up there with no problems. I
tried to find a small hose that would fit and was rated for propane,
but the only one I could find was the manufacturer’s brand, and I
had no confidence in that. Three new hoses in two years (I was
sometimes able to splice out the bad sections to get some extra use
from a hose) and I finally gave up and sold it on Ebay. The torch
itself was fine, but even small bottles of gas can go boom when you
can’t trust the hoses not to leak. I wonder if they don’t have as
strict regulations for the hoses for disposable units. My experience
with one brand doesn’t mean they are all that way, just be cautious.

Happy to be back with a torch that doesn’t leak,
Mary Whittle


#20
Judy, bernzomatic/worthington sells an extension hose that allows
you to attach the generic torch heads they sell to one of the
small tanks. It allows you to leave the bottle sitting upright and
still be able to turn the torch flame any direction you desire.
Model 334246 is the "universal torch extension hose", they are
available at a few places including Home Depot for $15. 

Thanks, Erik! I bought the aforementioned hose – was even able to
get it locally, and it seems to work well. The flame isn’t
particularly adjustable, but it’s OK for annealing and some other
jobs. The flame stays on (I have the bottle hanging under my work
area, using the handy wire hanging ring that came with the hose). I
guess I will never know why I was able to use my propane torch, by
itself at any angle without it flaming out, for the first 20 years I
did jewelry making.

Marty in Victoria, thanks for your idea about constructing one’s own
hose. I was thinking about it, but of course it’s so much easier to
buy something like the “universal torch extension hose.”

Judy Bjorkman