3D Printers

Jewelry Discussion
21

Hi Leonid,

suddenly became much easier. When was the last time anybody saw a
bookkeeper working ? They are all gone, totally replaced by
spreadsheet software.

You mean besides the two very nice ladies I pay non-trivial sums of
money to, to keep my books straight, and keep me on the right side of
the feds? I’ve got the spreadsheet program. It’s an idiot, and
doubly so if I’m driving. That’s why I let people who know what
they’re doing handle it. Sort of like Goldsmithing and design should
be…

Regards,
Brian

22 
Sure you can draw a ring, but can you take that drawing and view it
from any angle, see it in different lighting setups?

That what is called experience. No work should be started unless one
has clear picture in his/her mind and complete sequence of work
steps. In a nutshell, goldsmithing is very primitive. What do we do
except filling, drilling, soldering, and piercing ? Any technique can
be expressed as combination of the 4 basic skills.

The hard part is to translate design into combinations of these
skills and arrange these combinations into the right sequence. The
most pernicious aspect of CAD is that goldsmith relying on it, never
has a chance to develop mental skills, which are absolutely
necessary. Skills like visualization, ability to analyze design and
to determine what is necessary to translate is to metal.

Leonid Surpin

23

Hi Eric et al

Richard, that’s physically impossible. A human hair is at most 180
microns thick. When you cut something, you have to subtract the width
of the cutting tool. The smallest mechanical cutters are in the 50
micron range.

this was hyperbole, just to give an impression.

Jo, this is happening. You can pay $60 or $600 for a model. For $60,
you get someone who’s never cast or set a stone or even held a
sanding stick.

But for $40 dollars you get high skilled designs from people who know
how to make jewellery. Your argument is void and your experience is
limited re Asian techs.

As this field matures, these guys will disappear and the prices will
reach an equilibrium. The same thing happened to the software
industry in the mid-2000s.

Sorry but the Asian techs are already so ahead of the rest and a
fraction of the price of the west.

I have seen their work and it is good quality. The internet is a
great equaliser isn’t it.

Until the cost of living in Asia equals that of the west it will
always be cheaper to outsource there.

Also until Asian work ethics and education standards drop to that of
the west it will be a no go.

In the west teachers (I am one) want smaller class sizes, less than
30, to improve education. In Asia you get a class of 50 polite,
respectful, hardworking students, WITH NO ATTITUDE. Who value
education.

And if we think jewellers know about technology talk to a tool
maker.

no amount of ‘terabytes of RAM’ will allow a software program to use
a torch to perform reticulation.

Yes and 30 years ago it was impossible to solder titanium wasn’t it?

I concede, CAD cannot and will not do it all. But tell me a tool that
will? It is called the human brain, that is what designed and made
computers in the first place.

Richard
Xtines Jewels

24

I didn’t explain myself very well, experience and spacial perception
is something that any jeweller can do.

However CAD is an excellent communication tool. Sure you can see the
design in your head, but how well can you communicate that design to
a customer.

You can draw them a nice drawing, but that’s a 2D representation. 3D
images can be show from any angle, in any lighting environments, you
can instantly change the colour of the stones, or alloy. To try to do
this with a drawing would require a “lot” of sketching.

Computers are labour saving devices.

I agree with you Jewellers shouldn’t rely on one tool, but if a tool
can be used to enhance your business without killing quality, why
wouldn’t you use it?

We use power drills, instead of archemedian drills, and a whole host
of other tools to save time, but retain quality.

I’ve said it before, I can make a knife without using power tools,
it just takes me longer. I use power tools so that I can be more
productive. Computers can allow us to be more productive. You just
need to make sure there’s a balance.

Regards Charles A.

25 
this was hyperbole, just to give an impression.

Richard, I’m sorry. I didn’t understand that it was hyperbole. It
literally sounded as if you were telling people that Leonid’s ring
could be made, but only with millions of dollars worth of machinery
that were capable of violating the laws of physics. World class
machines, while expensive, only run about $25k.

Your argument is void and your experience is limited re Asian
techs.

I’m confused. How do you know my experience level with overseas
techs?

I’ve done CAD for 2 years, but as a shop we’ve used CAD models since
2005.

That leaves a considerable amount of time we outsourced the CAD
design.

We started with service bureau. Their modeler was awesome. He wanted
more money, the owner said no, and he left. That was a mistake. His
replacement was awful and we haven’t used them since.

We found modelers that knew jewelry but weren’t great at CAD. We
found modelers that were great at CAD, but didn’t know jewelry. But
specifically, the problem with overseas techs was not their ability,
but the time zone difference and the language barrier. You send an
email this morning and you get a reply after you’ve gone to bed that
night. A conversation takes forever even before you compound the
situation with the language barrier.

This same thing happened in the software industry. There are plenty
of articles written about it and their findings were the same as
mine. Even at a reduced rate, the cost of doing things 2 or 3 times
and missing deadlines proves not to be worth it.

That’s why my father asked me to learn CAD. We control the price and
the quality and only do in house work.

26

Hi

I did not mean that it could only be done with expensive machinery.

I meant that it could be done!

World class machines, while expensive, only run about $25k.

Then why have we not seen Leonid’s ring?

It would be well worth the kudos. And a brave jeweller to be judged
by 13,000 Orchidians.

“WINNER OF ORCHID CAD DESIGN CHALLENGE!”

If Leonid’s ring can’t be done done why not?

The ‘why not’ would be invaluable as you would know what
the machine needs to be capable of in the future.

You do your own cad, good move but if you did not it would be
probably be outsourced to Asia. And the quality COULD be excellent.

HOW SECURE ARE YOUR CAD FILES?

DO YOU CAD ON A COMPUTER THAT GOES ON THE INTERNET?

Worth thinking about for obvious reasons of security of your
designs.

They sell “Tiffany” in China, people have shown it to me so excited
about having a “fake”, all the money they saved. LOL

It looks cad designed and well made

The Chinese government, as reported by the US government, has
100,000 hackers at work on the internet.

how long before someone goes looking for cad jewellery design files.

and has the factory to back it up!!!

so even if outsourcing cad was cheap and worked well, are your sure
your code is secure?

Richard
Xtines Jewels

27

As I’ve said many multiples of times now, you cannot make a ring
without seeing it. With only grainy video footage to go on, it is a
fool’s errand.

There is zero doubt, that if provided, the ring could be made.

Thank you for worrying about the security of my files. I’m doing
alright.

Thanks,
Eric Marvets

28 
If Leonid's ring can't be done done why not? 

The 'why not' would be invaluable as you would know
what the machine needs to be capable of in the future.

In the video clip on my website, towards the end, there is a freeze
frame several seconds long which shows ring lying on it’s side. The
thing to see is connection of scallops to base ring. They are little
more than points. Even if one can obtain the model, casting it like
this would results in cracks developing at these points.

If one were to make these connections thicker, it would destroy the
ring look.

Another point is that some think that if appearance can be copied,
that solves everything. That is not so. There is a concept in
jewellery known as weight to strength ratio. Eternity ring in 18k and
size 8 weighs 7.2 grams with diamonds set.

It is very comfortable on a finger. If cast to this weight, it would
not last a day.

Castings below 0.7mm do not have required strength, which is
necessary to survive daily wear and tear. And even at 0.7mm, not
every caster can deliver.

There are few other sticky points to be discovered. To reveal them,
it would be to deprive all the fun that one can have trying to
replicate this ring.

All I can say that in my unshakable opinion, the only way to imbue
ring with required strength is to wrought it from metal, building
tension with every step and to perform soldering partially preserving
achieved work hardening. And if someone is interested in “how to
details” it is all on DVD.

Leonid Surpin

29

I have a Cad fellow who lives out of the country and he is very
secure with my files. This fellow has many Canadian & American
clients. If he wasn’t secure, he wouldn’t be so busy.

His prices are lower, but he knows how to overcome many of the
difficulties we are now experiencing. He is a Graduated Engineer. In
fact, he knows many of my jewellery contacts here in Toronto! I
showed Richard Hopkins some of my patterns, I’ll let him give his
opinion on them. Cad rocks!

Gerry!
gemsettingtutor.com

30

Leonid, thanks for pointing out the grainy freeze frame of your
ring.

After reviewing the grainy freeze frames, I can clearly see the .7mm
area that is of concern. It appears your unshakable opinion of CAD is
correct.

To think that I spent 2 years applying myself to something only to
learn that it is a fallacy. Thank you, and Richard, for aiding this
discussion of 3D printers.

Thanks,
Eric Marvets

31

Leonid,

You challenge us for couple of years to produce a computerized model
of your ring. there are a few takers, but funny enough you don’t show
us your ring. so i propose an orchid official challenge. you will
create and offer a real ring to the CAD operator rather than one
frame in an ill filmed movie. fair isn’t it… any takers?

Dan in Paris

32

Leonid,

So, isn’t then your challenge dis-ingenious?

You Bemoan the capabilities of CAD/CAM, post a challenge to CAD/CAM
designers saying that it is too limited to achieve your pinnacle of
perfection (sic).

Yet, it is casting that is incapable of the goal you posit. Why then
am I not hearing you bemoan casting? CAD isn’t the limitation.

Too be sure, CAD/CAM inherits the the limitations and handicaps born
of the casting parent.

That is simple.

You, by your own admission, designed a challenge that isn’t. A
challenge that is designed to fail, isn’t a challenge. It is a
baited trap, only there to prove a moot point.

Put another way;

I challenge anybody to find a million dollars under my bed. If you
find a million dollars under my bed, I will let you have it tax
free!

Sounds like a great challenge, but guess what, there be no million
dollars under my bed.

Moot!
Chris Lund
Neurascenic

33 
If Leonid's ring can't be done done why not? The 'why not'
would be invaluable as you would know what the machine
needs to be capable of in the future. 

In the video clip on my website, towards the end, there is a
freeze frame several seconds long which shows ring lying on it's
side. The thing to see is connection of scallops to base ring. They
are little more than points. Even if one can obtain the model,
casting it like this would results in cracks developing at these
points.

I’ve already got that image I need more details on the claws.

The resolution in the clip is 320 x 240, so it too low res to see
much.

I can replicate what I can see.

Regards Charles A.

34

One reason Leonid’s ring has not been replicated is he has not
specified it, a grainy image of a ring is not a specification. It is
sort of like posting a bad image of a car and saying “ok build a
copy”. If there was any real interest in a true challenge then there
would be a published spec and an impartial judge to compare the
attempts to Leonid’s ring assuming his ring met the spec as well.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

35 
I've already got that image I need more details on the claws.

The CAD model on my website together with video contains all the
pertinent Please realize that final appearance is the
job of a setter. Of course model has to allow the setter to
accomplish the task.

Another point I would like to make that for 2 years this back and
forth about details has been going on. Do you realize how many
people, in these 2 years, have completed this ring using basic
fabrication techniques using the same that CADsters
complaining about.

Leonid Surpin

36 
Yet, it is casting that is incapable of the goal you posit. Why
then am I not hearing you bemoan casting? CAD isn't the limitation.

There is some truth to that point. If we take CAD in isolation of
anything else, then I withdraw all my objections. CAD is capable of
producing image on computer screen of any complexity and level of
details. But that image cannot be worn, unless someone is willing to
walk around with computer terminal around her neck.

Even tablets are uncomfortable in this situation, I am not sure
about iPhones. Jewellery has to be done in metal. So all the problems
inherent to the process of converting image to metal, are CAD’s
problems.

Leonid Surpin

37

I just want to say that this has been pushed far enough. I was at a
"Blues" presentation this weekend. No doubt CD’s can reproduce music
almost perfectly. Hammond organs can reproduce a rhythm. But it was
so nice to listen to a quartet play; bass, guitar, drums, and vocal.
Sure you can sit at home and listen to your stereo, but it will never
compare to hearing live musicians play! See any similarity?

38

Hello all,

I signed up to the site a couple of days ago and look forward to
interacting as best I can.

I think the CAD can best be viewed in regards to the retail jeweler
and the steps said jeweler must take to finally stand before the
customer with a completed and outstanding piece of jewelry.

It’s been my experience that each piece is a maddening process
involving the CAD operator, caster, and finally the bench jeweler
(me). The CAD designer can always be relied upon to render a
breathtaking, multidimensional design that the customer falls in love
with. The wax is milled. That usually turns out ok.

Most will agree that the casting phase is where it all falls apart.

My heart goes out to the commercial casters out there trying to make
a buck.

After two or three weeks of horsing around the casting makes it to
the jeweler’s bench. Finishing the casting under and around the
complex twists, turns, unusual prongs and what have you can take a
couple of days. A couple of days you say!!! You must an amateur!
Then, after filling the odd pit and adding a couple of missing prongs
or a bezel section or sending the casting back to be recast it’s time
to get down to some serious stone setting. The end result is always
awesome and well worth the wait.

Jon

39

Well James I am going to make his “masterpiece”…don’t really care
what the specs are. I will make it with his various angles and what
not. He doesn’t think it can be made in cad. I have looked at it.

I would say an intermediate level cad designer could knock this out.
I just will have to find the time between instructing, designing,
going to JCK, having company from Germany, etc. Then I will write the
instructions down and teach it like I do other things as well… if,
of course, it warrants it.

40

Hi James,

One reason Leonid's ring has not been replicated is he has not
specified it, a grainy image of a ring is not a specification. It
is sort of like posting a bad image of a car and saying "ok build a
copy". If there was any real interest in a true challenge then
there would be a published spec and an impartial judge to compare
the attempts to Leonid's ring assuming his ring met the spec as
well.

I had internal angled channels done pretty quickly, it was a
reasonably simple operation.

I could have done a projection from the side of the ring, but it
would be much easier if I had a better image of the claws.

Leonid’s CAD is so far from the ring in his video, that I can’t use
it as a guide.

Has anyone got a copy of Leonid’s video, and could do I high res
screen cap? With Leonid’s permission of course.

Regards Charles A.