Yellow Turquoise

Jewelry Discussion
14 
While both nephrite and jadeite are often referred to as jade,
there is quite a difference in price and value between the two, and
the ethical thing to do would be to sell nephrite as nephrite,
jadeite as jadeite.

Nephrite and jadeite are not just referred to as jade; they are in
fact properly called jade – and no other mineral is! And while it
is true that the finest jade (known as “imperial jade”) is jadeite;
it is also true that there are plenty of examples of fine nephrite
jade that are quite beautiful and superior to moderate quality
jadeite jade.

Finally, it is both ethical and correct to sell either nephrite or
jadeite as jade; it is neither ethical nor correct to sell any other
mineral as jade, including jasper (which is a member of the quartz
family, as several people have mentioned). There are rocks such as
Maw Sit Sit which contain jade as one component in addition to
several other minerals, but they are not jade per se.

Beth

15

Well I finally heard back about that “yellow jade”.

Now keep in mind the first e-mail I got back from Fire Mountain told
me all about how both nephrite and jadeite are called jade. It
didn’t tell me what this particular item was, though.

So I asked again, pointing out that “ruby” USED to mean any red
gemstone, but that calling a red spinel a “ruby” now would get you
in a world of trouble.

This time, this is what they told me: “This type of “jade” is
traditionally dyed quartz.”"

I’m going to assume that this “yellow jade” is “traditional yellow
jade” (whatever that means) and that it’s dyed quartz.

And I’m redoubling my efforts to find some more reliable supplier
than Fire Mountain!

Sojourner

16

The owner of Rings 'n Things, Russ Nobs, has a “thing” about
disclosure. The site www.rings-things.com has a large area devoted
to explaining the different gemstones in their catalog
http://www.rings-things.com/hazel-doc/Extended/main.htm

I’m not affiliated with them in any way except as an extremely
satisfied customer. In fact, I’m going to Ganoksin in a bit to see
if they’re listed in the resources directory. They should be.

Rings & Things
https://www.ganoksin.com/resources/detail-rings___things-1834.html

Help others make informed buying decisions with Rings & Things. We
welcome your opinions and experiences with their products, ordering,
customer service and and over all satisfaction.

Write an Anonymous Review
http://www.ganoksin.com/resources/review.php?id=1834

Hope this helps.
Dorothy

17 
    I don't know where you came up with the "red malachite"
description you found at Fire Mountain's website, but there's no
link to it from the item I was looking at.

I found it by pointing my browser at their website and typed red
malachite in their search requester box. the search returned 10
items, 8 of which have the quotes.

     BTW, I DID google this stuff.  Unfortunately, if you google
"red malachite" you get a bunch of links to other bead dealers who
are also mislabeling their products - and aren't identifying the
actual substance.  If you look at gemological sites (and I looked
at as many as I could find and comprehend) they don't use the wrong
names, so you still can't identify the bead or cab you've only seen
mislabeled in a picture on a website.  In fact, sometimes they use
only proper scientific names so that I STILL can't find what I'm
looking for if it's a common name like "jade" where "jade" has no
actual scientific basis.

Sadly, that’s why it’s so difficult for so many who want to break
into the gem/jewelry biz without studying. Believe me, I am NOT
apathetic. But if you spend enough time at some of the gemology
sites, it will help. Unfortunately, it is a science with a very wide
curriculum and takes a lot of time. Buying even in person
at a gem show, without the requisite knowledge is difficult. Buying
them from a catalog, sight unseen, is a lot like Russian roulette.

    Sheesh!  So I'm scouting out other dealers who are hopefully
more forthcoming in their descriptions.  From what I can tell, most
of Fire Mountains stuff isn't exactly top quality, or even middlin'
quality, anyway.

Since I cut a lot of my own stones and studied gemology before I
ever bought finished gems from dealers, I don’t have many
catalog-type sources for Rio Grande’s Gems & Findings
catalog has a lot of what you may need, but they also have a certain
amount of misnomers, too.

    I could be wrong, but I've seen an awful lot of stuff that's
labeled "C" or "D" quality or, even more worrisome, not labeled for
quality at all.

Yeah, that’s definitely a problem. Especially so, since “A”, “B”,
“C”, or even “eye-clean”, “loupe-clean”, and a host of other
descriptions of gem quality give you absolutely no real idea of what
they are selling. I feel for ya there, but the reality is that there
are actual gem descriptions that are accepted by the industry (much
of it standardized by GIA) and most catalog dealers don’t use them.
Mostly because they are difficult to understand without at least
some minimal training. For example, I already know that corundum
typically has Type-II clarity, and order one from a supplier that
lists it as 1ct, R 6/6, Excellent (or Extra Fine) ruby, I know
almost precisely what I’ll get, and it’ll be one heck of a stone,
but you probably have no idea what some of it means. Buying one from
a catalog that says it’s “A” grade means absolutely nothing to me,
except that it is the best material they have in stock. Heck, it
might not even be red! Without knowing some basics, buying gems from
a catalog is a crap shoot.

Nothing against Fire Mountain Gems, they have certain items I use,
but never I’ve never seen a bead or finding in their
catalog that I couldn’t find at a gem show, cheaper. Those (gem
shows) are absolutely the best source of gems and beads. However,
you’ll find that some of the dealers there are precisely as nebulous
as the catalogs as to exactly what they’re selling. You’ll need to
shop around to find out who’s reputable, and who is not.

Maybe some of the dealers on this list can help you. Maybe some will
read this post and offer their services and wares. I’ve only bought
from one person on this list, Gerry Galarneau(sp?), and that was
rough, not finished gems. the man was totally forthcoming in his
description, and I couldn’t have been more satisfied. Hand-cut, made
in the USA gems from individual lapidaries will NOT match the price
of Fire Mountain Gems, or any place else whose wares are
manufactured overseas, but you will get what you pay for if you deal
with reputable people.

Sorry I don’t have an easy answer,
James in SoFl

18

Zen,

Misnomers are a real pain and as you say it would be nice if
everyone was truthful! Howver we all know that that just won’t happen
in this world. So as has been mentioned by James in SoFI education is
still the best way to go in order to ‘protect’ yourself and your
customers. There are some books available that give lists of
misnomers and my personal favourite (for gemmology as a whole) is
Gems, their sources, descriptions and identification by Robert
Webster. It is big (thick and heavy) and quite costly, but does give
a lot of valuable and it has a list of misnomers (17
pages of them actually, under the heading of “Glossary of unusual
names”) that does not contain either of the two you raised, but does
contain many others. So as you can see even this list is incomplete
and should be updated. I doubt there are many people out there who
know all the misnmomers!

19

After following this thread, I want to revise my response to another
thread, where I said I’d used both Fire Mountain and Rio and been
both happy and unhappy with each.

I have the impression that Fire Mountain has become less reliable
over the last couple of years. They carry so much junk now that I’ve
almost given up looking at their catalog–it gives me a headache. I
last bought from them when they had Sleeping Beauty turquoise on sale
and I can only hope that it’s the real thing, since I spent more than
I could afford and have been selling it as such. If anyone knows a
reason that I shouldn’t, please tell me.

On the other hand, I have never had any reason to suspect that Rio
sold me anything that wasn’t what they said it was. My
disappointments have all involved quality control and they seem to be
working on that. However, they have a very limited selection of
gemstone beads. I would really appreciate some Orchidian attention to
the “gemstone beads” section in the Ganoksin Guide to Industry Web
Sites:

http://www.ganoksin.com/resources/browse-gemstones_beads-172-1.html
Right now, there are 6 suppliers listed, with 0 ratings and 0
reviews.

I too have some of that “yellow turquoise,” left over from a
commission, for which it was supplied, with great delight, by my
client. Since I’d never heard otherwise, I assumed such a thing
existed. Luckily, I’ve never used it in anything else. Now it can go
in the box with the “cherry quartz!”

Lisa Orlando
Aphrodite’s Ornaments
Elk, CA

1 Like
20 
    So as you can see even this list is incomplete and should be
updated. I doubt there are many people out there who know all the
misnmomers!

It is so hard to keep up with them, I don’t even try. One post today
mentioned green “amethyst” which is gemologically impossible. I
sincerely don’t mean to pick on anyone, but actually knowing what
gem materials are is the only safe way to protect yourself from
being ripped off, and from ripping off your clients in return.

Okay, I’ll shut up now.
James in SoFl

21

The Turquoise Group .Turquoise identification and nomenclature is
compounded by several problems. Turquoise is part of a group of 3
minerals ( Hydrous Aluminum Phosphate and a solid solution of [
Copper - Turquoise ], [ Iron - Variscite ], [ Zinc - Faustite ] .

So Turquoise can be a chemical solid solution containing Copper,
Iron, and Zinc in varying amounts . The Hydrous Aluminum Phosphate
allows substitution of some of the ( Copper and/or Iron and/or
Zinc ) .

Variscite may be interspersed with other phosphate minerals - (
Crandallite, Wardite, Gordonite, and Hydroxylapite )

If this is not confusing enough, there are several other minerals
Prosopite, and Howite are used as substitutes , with and without
treatments.

Stabilized Turquoise, Treated Turquoise, Reconstituted Turquoise,
and Imitation Turquoise, are all separate considerations which add
to the confusion.

Faustite is yellow - apple green colored stone.
Variscite is yellow - green to blue green.

A retired lapidary dealer from Farmington N.M. told me that if it
would cut and polish, was moderately durable, and in demand, it was
likely sold as turquoise.

Gemstones of North America Vol 1 - John Sinkansas. *
Gem and Lapidary Materials - June Culp Zitner *
Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones - Joel E. Arem *
Gemology II edition - Hurlbut & Kammerling **
Dana’s Mineralogy IV edition - E.S. Dana

  • in print or easily available, ** in print but expensive,
    Google does not have all these subjects treated well , if at all.

You expected an easy answer about a gemstone , used from earliest
times, available world wide, has such variety and is still so much
in demand ? It is my favorite gemstone.

Robb.

22 
    Nope.  And I couldn't afford them if there were any.  I live
100 miles from the nearest city of any decent size, in the Ozarks.

Wow, this post and the one from Dawn in Texas are reminding me what
a strange place I live in. I’m in the Chicago (Illinois, USA) area
and live within 30 minutes of any chain store known in the US. A
friend lives within 10 minutes of the same kinds stores, including
IKEA. Plus all the local stores.

I can get anything I want, sometimes 24 hours a day.

I can get slide film processed in three hours.

~Elaine, drunk on the possibilities!

Seriously though, thanks for reminding me to appreciate what I have.

Elaine Luther
Metalsmith, Certified PMC Instructor
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com
Hard to Find Tools for Metal Clay

23 
    I have the impression that Fire Mountain has become less
reliable over the last couple of years. They carry so much junk now
that I've almost given up looking at their catalog--it gives me a
headache.

Me, too. I just gave my copy of their catalog to my mother the other
day. That’ll keep her busy for a while!

    On the other hand, I have never had any reason to suspect that
Rio sold me anything that wasn't what they said it was.

Since I’ve mentioned Rio in this thread in a slightly negative light
regarding gemstone misnomers, I’d like to make something clear.
While they do list a few misnomers in their Gems & Findings catalog,
the they provide on some of their gemstones is
considerable. Some items even have gemological such as
moh’s hardness, refractive index, specific gravity, etc. They even
explain what some of the terms mean. I believe all of their natural
gemstones have treatment, or enhancement disclosures, as well.

The other thing besides misnomers I railed at a bit is the “A-Grade”
or “AA-Grade” type of description. It’s the same sort of thing that
FMG uses, with their “C” and “D” grades. It’s too subjective of a
system to give a universally understood idea of what you get when
ordering. This may well be at the root of the quality control issue
that has been mentioned. Apart from that, I think Rio Grande does a
splendid job of describing their gem materials, especially with
treatment disclosures.

Also, while I’ve never ordered a gemstone from Rio, I’ve bought a
fair deal of metals and tools from them over the years, including my
bench. I’ve never had to return a thing.

James in SoFl

24

Years ago, when I first started working with silver, I got FMG
catalogs, and I swear I don’t remember them being this junky, not by
a long shot! The final straw for me was the several pages of some
cheap stone that was marked “dyed” - “Not permanent dye”.

So if you’re silly enough to use this stuff, its going to bleed all
over the customer.

I think not…
Sojourner

25

Lisa,

You are not alone with your evaluation of Fire Mountain. I took
exception to the fanciful naming of “yellow” stones. there was no
truth in disclosure. I contacted them directly to no avail. I
suggested they remove me from their mailing list. I recently
received their latest large catalog and have not bothered to open
it.

I spoke with the Art Clay people who mentioned Fire Mountain as a
good source, and let them know I will not patronize them. They said
they understood changes were being made. I do not see them.

I agree with you, we need more valid reviews of gemstone bead
sellers. Integrity should be rewarded by exposure. I know many rock
and mineral clubs have lapidary material for sale that was self
collected and polished by club members. No deception there.

Terrie

26

I bought some stuff from Fire Mountain two years ago and have
decided not to use them any more. Interestingly, I bought three
strands of “yellow turquoise” from them, but when the stones arrived,
I realized that two of three strands were stone but the third looked
like it had been made out of plastic with none of the markings that
the other two strands had. It was a smooth, uniform yellowish green.
I also bought some red jasper from them which looked fake to me.
These were the reasons why I stopped buying stuff from them.

Gloria F

27

I, too, share everyone’s concern about fanciful naming of stones,
yellow and otherwise, but while Fire Mountain may be less than
forthcoming about accurate nomenclature, they are not alone. I just
returned from Tucson where it seemed the majority of vendors were
selling stones with misleading names. So let’s be fair and not tar
any one vendor unfairly.

We all know that a smart buyer is wary but I think we also need some
regulated standards. This exists in other industries. After all, if
I buy cow’s milk, I can be pretty sure it isn’t goat milk, and I’m
not worried that the pine I just bought for a new deck might be some
other wood.

Beverly

28 
     You are not alone with your evaluation of Fire Mountain.

I got the Big Catolog the other day, and they do actually print on
those pages what the Red “malachite” actually is (red banded
jasper). I don’t know about some of the other questionable items.

But since they don’t choose to be equally forthcoming on their
website, in their smaller catalogs, and via e-mail, I just don’t
want to bother.

Sojourner

29

Beverly,

There are laws that protect buyers from blatant misrepresentation.

It is against the law to sell a gemstone with a misleading name (
example: Topaz Quartz ) Since Topaz and Quartz are two separate
Gemstones the term Topaz is being used to enhance the gemstone
Citrine Quartz actually being offered and make it seem more
valuable.

There are many gemstones on the market that are offered with
misleading names and you should make a point to avoid all dealers
that make a practice of selling this way.

First you should educate yourself about the products you are selling
( become a Gemologist ). There is no excuse in the eye of the law
for ignorance if you should pass on a misidentified gemstone to a
client.

Second you should confront the dealer that is selling gemstones with
misleading terms to make sure they understand that they are doing a
injustice to themselves and their clients.

Third you should contact the FTC as well as some of the trade groups
such as AGTA to alert them of the problem.

Good Luck
Greg DeMark
Longmont, Colorado
email: greg@demarkjewelry.com
Website: www.demarkjewelry.com
Custom Jewelry - Handmade Jewelry - Antique Jewelry

30

Dear Beverly,

In your analogy about standardization you brought up the issue of
not having to worry about the pine wood that you got for your new
deck. Actually, I wonder if you know how to distinguish amongst the
many woods that are thrown into the category of kiln dried white
woods ? Here in California the aforementioned category is apt to be
comprised of just about any white softwood that is harvested on the
west coast. One of the commonest varieties is white fir and it is a
lousy choice for just about anything. It is warp prone, mildews
easily, doesn’t hold paint well, is prone to insect damage and rots
easily. It also doesn’t hold nails well and has low structural
strength. It is sold right along with pine and spruce and many an
unsuspecting buyer has walked away with it thinking that he has a
quality wood. The only time I ever buy the stuff is when it has been
pressure treated with chemicals that make it rot and insect
resistant. Unfortunately the rules that apply to various grading
systems are often corrupted by special interest groups so as to give
advantage to their members. It is always the same old
shtuck…let the buyer beware !

Ron MIlls, Mills Gem Co. Los Osos, Ca.

31

Hi, Sojourner.

I Googled nomenclature (naming) and searched within the results for
“minerals, gems”. This site looked helpful:

http://tinyurl.com/52vpu

There is also a link on this site to common trade names for

http://tinyurl.com/3srr8

I have no connection (besides Google) to this site, but there seems
to be extensive on these pages about common names and
misnomers of materials which might be used in beads - I didn’t see
“red malachite” or “malachite, red”.

Unfortunately, describing specific bead materials doesn’t seem to
follow through too well on those shopping pages that I saw at this
site. He does, however, have an extensive list of links to sites
which may be helpful in other ways. Some list catalogs, sources,
have message/exchange lists, etc.

Good luck to you.

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

32

Thanks for the URLs, I guess it just takes knowing what terms to
google, which I sure didn’t.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, and it occurred to me
just today that years and years ago (1975 to be precise) I bought a
"Honey Topaz" ring. (Actually it was SUPPOSED to be a graduation
present, but my mom put it on layaway for $10 and then I had to pay
it off myself, so really I ended up buying it for myself).

It was a beautiful stone, a lovely golden color with no inclusions
visible to the eye, probably about 12mm or 14 mm. I paid $100 total
for it in 1975/1976.

Years later I had it appraised, and the jeweler almost snarled at me
over it. Since I had been told it was a “honey topaz” I assumed
that’s what it was, but apparently it was “just” a citrine (and
therefore worth only this jeweler’s curled lip, apparently). In
fact it was appraised 10 years later at about the same amount that I
had originally paid for it, and the jeweler at the time claimed that
had it been a “genuine Honey Topaz” it would have been a “$10,000
ring”.

Oddly enough, the only time I come across the term “honey topaz” at
all these days is in regard to obviously fake non-natural beads and
what not, such as the "Honey Topaz Amber Flower Spacer Glass Beads"
I found on e-bay. (And I have to wonder if they couldn’t have
crammed a couple more buzz words into that description)

Apparently “honey topaz” was historically applied to darker
citrines, and (as far as I can tell and I count on you guys to
correct me if I’m wrong) there’s NEVER been a “genuine Honey Topaz”.
There is an “Imperial Topaz”, but its my understanding that that
should have a pink or orange tone, and this stone had nothing like
that, it was just a very nice golden honey color.

In any case, I guess the point I’m trying to make is, it would
appear that not only did the original jeweler rip me off for the
"honey topaz" citrine that even today (30 years later) wouldn’t cost
more than about $20 tops in that size, but the second jeweler I took
it to to have it appraised 10 years later was also handing me a line
of guff - Imperial Topaz, which is the closest thing I can guess
might have been equated to “genuine Honey Topaz”, while quite
expensive enough at $1500 to $2k in that size, would still not have
qualifed that ring as a “$10,000 ring” even today, let alone 20 years
ago.

I loved the ring, don’t get me wrong (it was stolen in a burglary
when I was living in Puerto Rico) but there’s no way my mother (or I)
would have paid $100 in 1976-money for a citrine instead of a topaz.

So I guess it’s important to me that I NEVER, even inadvertently,
sell a customer something that it isn’t. I don’t want to get into
the disappointment business.

Sojourner

PS - BTW, this same hometown jeweler also made pretty durn good
money selling my mother an assortment of “smoky topaz” items for
major bucks (at least back then) when it was really just another kind
of quartz. It’s a good thing he’s dead by now or I might have had a
thing or two to say to him…

33 
    and (as far as I can tell and I count on you guys to correct me
if I'm wrong) there's NEVER been a "genuine Honey Topaz". There is
an "Imperial Topaz"

Yes, exactly.

    So I guess it's important to me that I NEVER, even
inadvertently, sell a customer something that it isn't.  I don't
want to get into the disappointment business.

ZS, I admire your attitude about this subject, and I’m certain
you’ll acquire all the knowledge you need. You’ve done quite well so
far. Learn as you go, and stick to what you know. Expand your
choices and offerings as you expand your knowledge. With this
attitude, you are well trusted and admired.

    PS - BTW, this same hometown jeweler also made pretty durn
good money selling my mother an assortment of "smoky topaz" items
for major bucks (at least back then) when it was really just
another kind of quartz.

Yep, “smoky topaz” is actually smoky quartz, and very much a similar
misnomer as “honey topaz.” You’ll come across plenty more as you go.
In fact, topaz vs. quartz was discussed here very recently. that
thread began here:

All the best,
James in SoFl