Which faceting machines for best results?

to all, i wonder somtimes why people who facet colored stones use a
different setup than do those who facet diamonds when they cut
diamond its generally one large lap or scaife and all the different
grits appear to have a certain amount of space allocated like songs
on an LP record and the stones are dopped to and the indexing
apparatus is mounted to a tang, no post for the indexing head ?

goo

Hi Lorraine,

Youā€™ve gotten plenty of advice, let me just add enough to make it
even more confusing. Wayne Emory is probably one of the most
knowledgeable faceters I know of. (Although I donā€™t know him
personally.) He cuts more stones in a week then most faceters cut in
a year. His is always good advice. Jeff Graham did maintain a good
faceting site, but he recently passed away. Not to cast aspersions
on the deceased, but he was a dealer for Omni and also for Ultra-Tec,
and his bias usually showed. - quite prominently. I use an
Ultra-Tec, and I do only because the fellow who taught me the
fundamentals of faceting liked his.

In the couple of years that I have been doing this, as a
hobby/business - this is what Iā€™ve learned. Although there is no
substitute for a good tool, there is no also no substitute for
experience. Cutting stones is not exactly like machining metal.
Maching metal is a function of math, faceting is a mix of math,
artistry and black magic. Sometimes thereā€™s nothing better than an
"offering" to the faceting gods, as luck is also a part of that mix.

If you are absolutely sure you want to be a facetor then get the
best tool you can, (read expensive.) If youā€™re not absolutely sure
then you will be well served to buy something that isnā€™t the most
expensive. Iā€™ve found that a local rock club is a great place to find
other faceters. Getting to know them will usually offer the chance to
see several different machines. Some clubs even offer classes at a
very reasonable cost. That opportunity will allow you time actually
using a machine, cutting stones and gaining some understanding
regarding the artistā€™s part in this endeavor.

Inexpensive machines, even good used machines have the ability to
cut a remarkable stone. What Iā€™ve found is that an accurate machine
will allow an experienced faceter to cut a good stone in a short
time. A lousy faceting machine will just slow that faceter down, but
the product will likely be the same. In the hands of an inexperienced
faceter, even the best machine does not guarantee a national
treasure. That will only come with experience.

Soā€¦good luck to you, and I hope this helps. I will tell you that
there is a real satisfaction when you finally cut a stone that you
can be proud of. The intrinsic value isnā€™t always so important. Itā€™s
like Michelangelo said - ā€œI saw the angel in the marble and carved
until I set him free.ā€ The value isnā€™t in the marble, itā€™s in the
angel.

Rgdsā€¦Ski & Cathy
Rocks to Gems

1 Like

Al,

You make a good point. The late Mr. Graham was not always without
bias!!

I think faceting machines are a lot like carsā€¦we ardently support
the ones we have! In over 37 years of faceting, Iā€™ve used most of
the popular machines, many of which are not missed. For over twenty
of those years I used both a Facetron and a UT. Both were good
machines, each had its idiosyncrasies, and each had good and bad
points. Looking back, I donā€™t know how I used the cheaters on either
of those machines.

Iā€™ve had my Gem Master II for about six years now. One day I was
faceting on another machine, to remain nameless, when the quill
slipped from my fingers and, with a $2000 plus piece of tourmaline
rough attached, crashed into my metal lap. The stome broke into
three and went flying, an expensive loss indeed.

Within seconds, literally, Iwas on the phone ordering a GemMaster II
with my Amex. The Gem Masterā€™s quill gently floats upward or remains
in place when the quill is released, and I would NEVER own a machine
that did not have that feature. And I will never again danage an
expensive lap or lose a piece of rough by dropping it on a spinning
lap.

At the time, I was blissfully unaware of the incredible accuracy and
repeatability of this machine or its many other subtle features I
would come to know. Like the ability to swing the water drip tube up
out of the way, briefly halting its flow. When you swing it back
down, it begins dripping again at the same rate as when you swung it
up. Sounds like a small thng, but the machine is geared for speed,
accuracy and repeatability. If I had four hands, Iā€™d have two Gem
Mastersā€¦my UT was sold long ago and my Facetron (old soldier) sits
idle in a corner of my shop.

Like I said, we love what we have. If I had to choose again today
and could not afford the Gem master, Iā€™d buy a machine from Zane
Hoffman at Polymetric, no question about it. For repair work, a
repeatable cheater is essential, na dhis machines are among the best.
Solid, precise, well aligned, well supported, Zane knows what he is
doing!

IMO, the UT and Facetron are not in the same class s the 2 mentioned
above, but both are more than adequate for the hobbyist ot hhe
professionsl not in a hurry. The GM II saves a LOT of time and time
is money.

Wayne Emery
The Gemcutter
www.thelittlecameras.com

1 Like
but what's there is only Jeff's opinion, and outdated opinion (and
even incorrect facts) in some cases. Many faceters disagree with
him. 

I did read Jeffā€™s opinions at faceters.com. In his final scoring, he
weights heavily toward whether a retailer offers support vs. having
to go to the manufacturer to get support.

Thanks, Al, for these sites. Iā€™ll try them as well: USFG Faceters
List, and gemologyonline.com forums.

To clarify, Iā€™d like more detail re technical aspects of the two
machines. The gentleman who taught my faceting class prefers
UltraTec. I want to flesh out that point of view with others, build
a frame of reference, before I purchase.

Thank you!
Lorraine

There is no best machine, really. Any facetor that is competent on a
particular machine will lean toward thinking that machine is better
than another. A bit like a Suzuki biker will think that Yamaha is not
as good as Suzuki.

Both will give you an equal amount of road rash.

More iimportant is to what end you are going to use the machine for.
To cut stones obviously, but do you want to make a living out of it?
(as in cutting stones for other jewellers) Are you just wanting to
fool around a bit?

Once you decide the direction you want to go, still buy the best you
can afford. Generally, expensive machines have a better resale
value. There are no REALLY bad machines on the market these days.
Keep in mind that if you want to get serious, the machine is actually
the cheapest thing you will buy.

Reason is, that unless you intend cutting bottle glass, your rough
is going to be far more that any machine on the market.

I cut on an Imahashi. At $6000 a machine, it is quite expensive, but
last year I spent nearly three times that on rough material. And $500
on consumables, like laps, powder and blades. And I have been cutting
for 35 years, so you can see the machine is a small amount to pay,
actually.

I agree with Al Balmer. Jeff Grahamā€™s opinion
http://www.facetors.com, were his, and in my opinion, a bit biased
and somewhat subjective.

Cheers, Hans Meevis
http://www.meevis.com
http://hansmeevis.blogspot.com

One thing is the indexing of the dop. The Graves doesn't have any
way to index the dop into the arm (which is of course indexable).
In addition to not letting you re-index the dop if you take it out,
it also means that the only thing holding the dop in position in
the head is friction. It is very easy for the dop to slip and
misalign the stone radially. (I hope that makes sense.) 

Wow - how old was your machine? There certainly is a way to index
the dop, and there certainly is a set screw to keep it in position.
Iā€™ve never seen a Graves that was otherwise, though perhaps in the
distant pastā€¦

Another constant problem was that the speed control was located
almost right under the slot for moving the mast backwards and
forwards. Result, burnt out controller if you happened to get
water down the slot. 

I never heard of that happening, and in fact, youā€™d have to
deliberately squirt water sideways through the slot, and a lot of
it, to have any chance of hitting the speed control, which is pretty
well shielded.

There were others, but I found that I could cut in half the time
when I switched from the Graves to the Ultra-Tech. More expensive?
Heck yes. But you get a lot for the extra money. 

Like what? I donā€™t know why it would be faster - in fact, one of the
perennial complaints about the UT is that it takes forever to change
mast height. People even sell gadgets to speed it up.

UT now has a digital angle readout available, which speeds things
up, but Graves was there first.

Iā€™m really curious - do you know how old that machine was?

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

My greatest pleasure in Tucson, was at the Alpha Supply Faceting
Machine Demonstration table. There for several years, you were able
to hands on try various machines, and to listen to Wayne Emery and
Zane Hoffman, sitting side by side at their specific machines and
banter back and forth. When one or the other left for a break, or to
take lunch, the other would take over demonstrating each otherā€™s
machines. This without bias, backhanded salesmanship or any negative
statements.

This could not be said of Jeff Graham.

Some years ago, I attended a Faceterā€™s Group Symposium where I had
the pleasure of meeting Fred Van Sant. We became quite friendly and
spent a few days early morning to late night. During that time, Fred
told me that his greatest regret was to allow jeff Graham to sell
his designs. Fred then gave me every one of his designs, and told me
I had his permission to share them free of charge, other than copying
and shipping costs.

When Graham got word he threatened me with law suits.

I believe now, when I speak with my facetor friends, I will see how
this can come to pass, keeping in mind that grahamā€™s mother was his
lawyer.

As for the best machine, it is all in the operator, buy what you can
afford, learn and practice. If you are in it for the long run, and
want to upgrade, then do so. Both Johnny Tewā€™s Facette and Zane
Hoffmanā€™s Polymetric machineā€™s are top of the line. Reliability and
service top notch. I would have a hard time choosing between the
two.

Hugs,
Terrie

Hello Al,

Actually Doug Hoffman was the first to put a Digital Angle Readout on
a faceting machine (Prismatic AngleOmeter)

with the first production modles released to the market in 1980. He
continued with Poly-Metric having the only digital readout faceting
instruments

until the famed Gearloose did it to his ā€œRevision Hā€ back around
1999. The Model J-2 Prototype

A later version of this is what Graves bought and produces now.

http://www.gearloose.com/xs3.html
http://www.gravescompany.com/mark_5xl.htm

UT just release there digital in the last year.

http://www.ultratec-facet.com/V2Main.htm

Several years old at least.

The problem with splashing water came about when you were cutting the
girdle at 90 degrees. Youā€™ve got to depress the shield to get the
stone onto the lap and that creates a place for water to splash out.
It doesnā€™t take much water either. The problem is that the speed
control is located too close to the slot. This happened repeatedly on
and we took to sealing the slot with duct tape.

As for learning to facet, thereā€™s a reason that more expensive
machines cost more and itā€™s directly related to quality. That said,
as several people have pointed out, you can do champion faceting on
any of the major brands.

RC

Some clubs even offer classes at a very reasonable cost. That
opportunity will allow you time actually using a machine, cutting
stones and gaining some understanding regarding the artist's part in
this endeavor. 

Thanks, Cathy and Ski. Iā€™m a member of the nonprofit Gem Cutterā€™s
Guild in Baltimore and, as I noted in my earlier email, we used Ultra
Tec machines in our recent faceting class. The gentleman who taught
the class, Steve Weinberger, did an extraordinarily meticulous job:
each of the 5 of us (Gem Cuttterā€™s Guild only has 5 faceting machines
presently) left with a beautiful stone, four citrines and one
stunning 19-carat oro verde. He made it very clear by his example and
by helping to correct our mishaps ā€“ enough mishaps to be instructive
without being discouraging ā€“ that polishing is the least predictable
part of the process, the ā€œart partā€, as opposed to the more
mathematical aspects of grinding precise facets. I tend to be an
obsessive perfectionist, and I must say he handled that part of my
makeup well. I know he must have been tempted to say, oh, for
heavenā€™s sake, woman, just move on. :slight_smile:

As you suggested, the local Chesapeake Gem And Mineral Society might
have more info for me. Many members of GCG are also members of
Chesapeake.

Hint: Steve W. will be teaching faceting again at GCG, and I believe
at Wildacres in North Carolina this fall. You wonā€™t be disappointed
with his class!

Thanks so much to each poster who has provided detailed info re
faceting machine features and behaviors.

Lorraine

Cutting is easy. Polishing is the hard part. The most aggravating
parts of faceting are, not in any order, having a stone come off
the dop and having to re-dop and use,the cheater the rest on the
way, not paying attention and cutting a facet at the wrong angle or
the wrong index number, having the stone come down and hit the lap
and chip, having polish ball up and scratch a facet deep
enough,that you have to go back and touch up all the facets to get
them to meet properly. 

Succinct and accurate. I have to say, though, that though cutting
may be easy, so is ruining the stone while cutting. Probably the most
common problem is over-cutting a facet and having to start over
again. Second is underestimating the cutting needed to remove all
damage left by the previous grit. Invisible damage caused by a coarse
grit can suddenly show up as scratches during polish.

Cutting at the wrong index is easy to do if you lose focus, and I
donā€™t know any cure except attention and experience. Cutting at the
wrong angle is nearly eliminated by digital readouts, like those by
Jon ā€œGearlooseā€ Rolf in his XS machines, the Graves/Gearloose
current 5XL machine, and now some others, including the UT.

From watching and reading professional cutters, I would say that
production speed owes more to the process than the machine. In
discussions of speed, the most-often mentioned machine is probably
the Facette.

Polish isnā€™t the bugaboo it used to be, either. Modern laps such as
the Gearloose Darkside make a tremendous difference in ease of
getting a good polish. The recent introduction of the banded
DarkWing, like itā€™s predecessor the RedWing, is a real speed booster
for professionals, allowing prepolish and polish to be accomplished
on a facet without lap, index, or height changes.

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

Iā€™ve used an Ultra Tec faceting machine for over twenty years and
have had consistently good results all of that time. The machine is
very durable, easy to use and best of all, was built right here in
the good old USA. I repair a lot of stones for other jewelers and the
Ultra Tec is especially easy to set up in order to recut individual
facets necessary to make some repairs.

When I first purchased the machine, Ultra Tec didnā€™t offer the dial
indicator attachment so I added my own. Itā€™s a very useful addition.
I know they are now available (not sure whether standard or an
option) on the newer units.

Iā€™ve given this machine a great deal of use over the years and it has
never caused me any problems. Although the price has more than
doubled over time, I wouldnā€™t hesitate to to buy the same machine
again.

Sincerely,
Donald L. Kenney

I cut on an Imahashi. At $6000 a machine, it is quite expensive,
but last year I spent nearly three times that on rough material.
And $500 on consumables, like laps, powder and blades. And I have
been cutting for 35 years, so you can see the machine is a small
amount to pay, actually. 

The Imahashi is famous, but seldom seen in the US. Itā€™s a platform
machine, considerably different than the mast-type machines weā€™ve
been discussing. There is a US-made platform machine, the
Raytech-Shaw, whose users are small in number, but big in praise for
the design. Iā€™ve also seen an Australian platform-type machine.

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

Hey goo,

i wonder somtimes why people who facet colored stones use a
different setup than do those who facet diamonds when they cut
diamond its generally one large lap or scaife and all the different
grits appear to have a certain amount of space allocated like songs
on an LP record and the stones are dopped to and the indexing
apparatus is mounted to a tang, no post for the indexing head ? 

Check out my last post at http://meevis.ganoksin.com/blogs/ The last
picture is one with my cockatiel sitting on my machine. I have a
Darkwing lap on the machine, which is a cutting and polishing lap in
one. The dark inner circle is the polishing side and the outer shiny
part is the cutting sideā€¦

http://www.meevis.com
http://hansmeevis.blogspot.com

Hello David,

You have received a lot of good advice from the list and I generally
stay out of machine vs machine threads, however: ā€œWould a
professional cutter use this machine ?ā€ begs the question. As a
professional cutter I can sit in front of any machine you could come
up with and I can cut a stone for you with it. There would probably
be very little variation in your cost. As a professional cutter the
initial cost of a faceting machine is trivial. The business costs of
putting it somewhere is where the expensive part starts, followed
quickly by providing rough. A cutter that has sufficient experience
and confidence in their abilities to cut for money is also going to
have the knowledge of what features they need in a faceting machine
to make their endeavour as efficient as possible. In many cases this
is a matter of trying different machines until one is found that
ā€˜fitsā€™ for some of us we have to resort to having a machine custom
builtfor a comfortable ā€˜fitā€™. Although I havenā€™t experienced any
serious loss, I would like to reinforce Wayneā€™s comment regarding a
counter-balanced quill. Although my machine is built that way too, I
think a counter-balance weight could be added to almost any mast
machine. Hans has a table machine which eliminates the problem in an
entirely different manner.

Tony.
Anthony Lloyd-Rees.
www.TheGemDoctor.com
Vancouver, Beautiful British Columbia

There have been some quite negative things said about Jeff Graham.
Obviously I didnā€™t know him, but there are some close friends of his
on this list, so it seems that a little respect for the recently
departed might be a good idea?

Helen
UK

I also prefer mastless machines and have cut on a Raytech-Shaw* for
fifteen years. Handpieces are natural, comfortable and make viewing
work-in-progress especially convenient, as I use a boom microscope
constantly for inspection. I donā€™t see myself ever changing to mast
and quill.

The machine Iā€™m building will improve things even more but is a
self-indulgence rather than necessity as I cut only for myself.
Besides, as pointed out in several posts, anyone with understanding,
sound technique, adequate equipment (even jamb pegs), and, in my
case, optical support can do fine work.

  • The poor manā€™s Imahashi, is also handy for sharpening gravers, as
    those GRS Quick Changeā„¢ inserts fit right into the handpiece.
1 Like

As far as which faceting machine produces the best results, that all
depends on the person operating it! The jamb peg machine has probably
cut more gemstones than any other faceting machine. But I wouldnā€™t
recommend one. If you are looking for a machine that is going to be
reliable, accurate, repeatable, a joy to use, is going to last a
lifetime, and have factory support with a lifetime warranty then I am
going to recommend the Ultra Tec. I have an article that you might
find interesting about Ultra Tec

http://www.bestcutgems.com/thehistoryofultratec

Glenn Klein has been using the same Ultra Tec faceting machine for
competitive faceting for 40 years. I would say that is reliable.
There are pictures of the first Ultra Tec faceting machine as well as
Glenn Klein and his wall of fame. I also have other articles
available as well. With the exception of a few faceting machine
brands that I have heard horror stories about over the years, most
will produce a good result. My husband and I both facet on Ultra Tec
faceting machines and we both love them. Yes I am an Ultra Tec
Factory Representative, but if I didnā€™t use and believe in them then
I wouldnā€™t use or sell them!

Glenn Klein has a very good book out on faceting, ā€œFaceting History:
Cutting Diamonds and Colored Stonesā€, it is available at

I donā€™t have any connection to Glenn or his book in anyway, he is
just a great, talented person that wrote a great book on faceting.

Linda McMurray G.G., A.J.P. (GIA)
Best Cut Gems

Actually Doug Hoffman was the first to put a Digital Angle Readout
on a faceting machine (Prismatic AngleOmeter) 

Just to add to your history, Omni has a digital readout as well.

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

Glenn Klein has a very good book out on faceting, "Faceting
History: Cutting Diamonds and Colored Stones", it is available at
http://www.glennklein.com 

I recommend that book, as well, but for those looking to learn
faceting, we should say that Glennā€™s book is not about faceting
technique, but faceting history.

Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ