Where is the eternity ring wax?

Jewelry Discussion
21

Being a 5th generation Jeweler I was fortunate to have learned my
Profession from a Master Jeweler that also had internationally
Patented several Jewelry manufacturing techniques > My Father.

Growing up in an Inventors environment, heartache and perseverance
go hand in hand but he did have the foresight to see the potential
of the future and CAD-CAM. We embraced this new unknown technology
and combined it with our experience and discipline in ALL aspects of
manufacturing.

The “jump” had to be made if you want to survive in this Business.
To-date our entire manufacturing process is: RP to direct Casting
(no cold molding) and have the confidence to say there is nothing
that CAD-CAM cannot do.

Can a pic/link be posted about this ring?

regards,
Harold Eberle
INGOT Inc.

22

Hi Leonid,

I would have to be an expert system built into CAD, which is aware
of limitations of availability of diamond sizes and been able to
recalculate all the dependent dimensions. But I accept that this
is possible. 

However, the point is that we have to bring to bear very
sophisticated technologies just to replace a goldsmith with little
more than a simple ruler.

At the moment, yes. What scares me is Moore’s law. (Roughly:
computer power doubles every 18 months.)

They’re starting to run into unavoidable scaling issues that will
pretty quickly put a cork into that issue, but that isn’t really the
point.

The point is that AT THE MOMENT it’s prohibitively expensive to do
iterative/parametric CAD. But that won’t last long.

The grad school kids have been playing with it for years, and it’ll
start to get to the point where it makes sense for commercial
outfits before not too long. The barrier isn’t raw CPU power, it’s
programming. That’s just a matter of throwing money at it, rather
than any physical limitation. Which means that it will be solved, as
soon as it’s worth someone’s while to do so.

I just got back from a swing through the East coast, and one of the
places I stopped was the museum that’s all that’s left of the
Springfield Armoury.

They didn’t have many of the machines left. Most of what survives is
actually up at the American Precision Museum in Vermont. (Where I
also stopped. Please pretend to be shocked.) One of the things that
hit me was the “mechanization of skill” in the early industrial
revolution.

The early gun fitters were very skilled guys. They had to be. They
did the whole weapon, lock, stock and barrel. (Really. That’s where
that saying comes from.) But bit-by-byte, the machine tool
builders found ways to automate their skills. This is hardly a new
story. What I’m afraid of is that it’s one we may be looking down
the barrel of now, ourselves.

They thought that their skills were so great that they had nothing
to fear. They were wrong.

History is littered with the burnt remains of trades and professions
that thought that their mastery was unassailable. (Trade
watchmakers, for example.)

There are still a very few hand-build gunsmiths out there, just as
there are a very, very few horologists.

How do we (as a field) keep from joining them?

Regards,
Brian

23 
That exact one. Not a rendering, not a similar one-- a real
physical one like in the picture.

Just finished the trade show here in Sydney, and basically I’m
clapped out, this is also not unusual for the job that I find myself
in, I am extremely time poor.

Hence the offer to release the. stl files, which you now have a copy
of. If someone has more time than I do at the moment, feel free.

As to the exact ring, the file I created will look like the images
provided by Leonid, however the parts of Leonid’s ring that are
“hidden” will be approximations. It’s sort of like asking what colour
are my eyes? You can guess and you may be right, but… :wink:

Regards Charles A.

24 
To do that one would have to insure that both parts have the same
rate of shrinkage, which is not trivial. What fit in a model, not
necessary fit after casting. And very tight fit is required! These
joints take all the stress during setting, polishing, and wear. So
my advice would be, before proposing half-baked solutions, one
should take time to study the ring and understand it's
construction.

It really doesn’t have to be cast in two parts, the wax can be
printed in one operation, and cast in one operation.

I’m also waiting for my friend who has a 5 axis CNC machine that he
imported from Japan, to see if a 5 axis machine can machine the wax
as opposed to growing it. I don’t see how the CNC machine could do it
in one go, but as soon as he runs the test I’ll let you know. He also
thanks you Leonid for the test models :wink:

Regards Charles A.

25 
Sounds like a plan. When can I see completed ring ?

Did you ever get a copy of the. stl files. Thought I sent them to
you, did they go to your spam box by any chance? I can send them to
you again if you’d like them.

Kindest regards Charles A.

26

Why does everyone on this subject keep trying to beat a dead horse?
Either reproduce the ring or let it go and stop taunting each into
another senseless, stupid argument! This has been going on for
awhile, and I for one thought the subject was over! Enough of the
measuring contest to see who has the biggest, “you know what” and
stay busy at your craft. Are things really that slow where you are
at that you have to keep picking fights on a blog sitee This is not
at all why I joined this group. Maybe it’s time to move else where!
I’m not sure who has the biggest egos, chefs or jewelers with to much
time on their hands! Remember, opinions are like rear ends, everyone
has one and they usually all stink!

27 
Can a pic/link be posted about this ring?

Wow, we have Eternity ring virgin!

To bring you up to date, - Eternity ring challenge was initiated by
me about 3 years ago.

The challenge is to reproduce Eternity ring using cad/cam process.
Challenge is not completed unless ring is finished and set with
diamonds. It also has to come at or under 8 grams in 18k gold, in
size 8. If using other metals, weight will be recalculated based on
metal density. For more about the ring proceed to my
website where you should find section describing the ring. My blog
also has enlarged picture of it.

Leonid Surpin

28

Hi Guys,

This is what’s happening in Australia, more focus is being placed on
CAD than actual hand work. It’s got to a point where apprentices
aren’t being taken on for economic reasons.

The sophisticated technologies “are” there and they are becoming
more affordable. That can’t be taken lightly.

I think there needs to be a balance. Precision CAD and
hand-fabrication actually works well together. If we can get the
mindset that CAD is just another tool for jewellers, then maybe we
have a chance.

Regards Charles A.

29 
I am sure you must know that if I am not a CAD person I cannot
open a STL file. I don't have the program nor do I want the
program. Show me the ring not a picture, I can draw the same
picture. Also to Charlie Omenif it is such a fools errand, prove us
wrong. It is easy to put down others with words. Show me the proof.
I offered more than a year ago to send the gold and diamonds to
someone to make the ring and no takers. I can draw a Faberge' egg,
does that mean I can make it.

Sorry Bill,

I just assumed that you could open an. stl file, as you said that
you hadn’t seen the offer of the files, my mistake.

I’m getting closer to making the ring, just need to find the time,
such a busy job, sold a reasonable amount of product at the trade
show, even the new gold testing machines (awesome tech).

When I get a chance to scratch myself I’ll send the files to the
printers, then get them cast in sterling, as Leonid’s is made in.
I’m not going to use just “any” casting house, I’m going to use an
extremely professional casting house that uses the best gear.

Regards Charles A.

30 
However, the point is that we have to bring to bear very
sophisticated technologies just to replace a goldsmith with little
more than a simple ruler.

Well now I’m really confused, Leonid. Didn’t you call me a
“simpleton” once for suggesting that something as complex as the
length of material needed for a bracelet could be pretty easily
figured out with little more than a simple ruler? You posted this in
response to a request for info on how to figure the length of a
bracelet -

Let's check it out. Ellipse 60 mm long and 40 mm wide.Computing by
circle method = 3.14159*((60 + 40)/2) = 157mm. Let's try Ramanujan
way - C = 3.14159 * [ 3*30 + 3*20 - sqrt((3*30 + 20) * (30 +
3*20))] simplifying - 3.14159 * [ 150 - sqrt(110 * 90))] > 3.14159
* (150 - sqrt(9900)) = 3.14159 * (150 - 99.5) = 3.14159 * 50.5 =
158.7

My response to the above, taken directly from your next post -

Or you could just order a "Jewelry Maker's Gauge" from Stuller,
part number 35-5115. Figure how long you need the bracelet by
measuring the wrist, add three times the thickness of the metal to
the measurement on the gauge.

Your response to that was -

It is quite amazing how much disdain some carry towards others,
and this is such a perfect example. A simpleton solution for the
problem that the author of above quote does not even begin to
understand.

Miss Wilson, my geometry teacher used to say pretty much the same
thing about my responses to her questions and I guess even after all
these years, I still don’t understand. Please help me figure this
out.

Can we now use a ruler to figure out dimensions, or is that still
considered to be merely the solution of a simpleton?

Dave Phelps

31 
Can a pic/link be posted about this ring?

I’ll post you some. stl files CIA

32 
Did you ever get a copy of the. stl files. Thought I sent them to
you, did they go to your spam box by any chance? I can send them
to you again if you'd like them.

Completed ring does not mean stl files. It means ring that was cast
set with stones and polished.

That was the deal. Now you changed it mean only CAD drawing.

I can offer speculation on why that is the case, but I do not think
it is necessary. Res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself).

Leonid Surpin

33 
Challenge is not completed unless ring is finished and set with
diamonds. [snip]

Ahh the movement of the goalposts begins.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

34 
It is quite amazing how much disdain some carry towards others, and
this is such a perfect example. A simpleton solution for the
problem that the author of above quote does not even begin to
understand.

still applies.

Heuristics (rules of thumb) are useful at times, but not always.

Ellipse is rather difficult shape for goldsmith and approach used in
handling circles will give wrong results every time. As far as
calculations go, the dimensions are obtained by using simple ruler.
One does not negate the other!

Leonid Surpin

35

Hi

 Ahh the movement of the goalposts begins.

No I have followed this post and it was always to be a real world
object not a CAD design without fabrication of the ring.

As Korzybski said “The map is not the territory.” Perhaps one may
say “The CAD file is not the ring.” And be equally correct.

However, as I understand it Charles’ CAD files are just the
beginning and he intends to make the ring. I am sure it will have the
finesse of Leonid’s design but will it have the structural integrity?

If Charles’ ring does have the structural integrity then a quantum
leap has been made in construction. And Charles will be looking at a
very lucrative project.

However Charles’ ring will be perfect. While Leonid’s, measured by a
micrometer, will have some variation in dimensions.

IMHO it is these very minute variations that intrigue the human
brain.

So it will be very interesting, if Charles’ ring succeeds then he
will make enough money to be able to place his version next to
Leonid’s in a “blind” comparison on Orchid and we can vote, not
knowing whose ring is whose, which one we like the best.

But I don’t think the buying public will appreciate the subtle
nuances.

And I will be envious of both of them. Rather than “flogging a dead
horse” I think this is a pivotal point in jewellery manufacture.

So all the best Charles, you bloody future millionaire. And thanx
Leonid for pushing the boundaries and presenting fine jewellery
challenges.

OK newbies you may not know what is going on here but it is going to
impact on your future one way or another.

Richard
Xtines Jewels

36

I think it was one of these I watched in action recently. It
carves (very accurately) the wax instead of building it line by line.
I thought it was amazing! I think Boltons had the complete rings on
show at the fair (sydney) And ifthe gentleman that showed me this is
reading my comments, thank you for youkindness that day.

37

Hey if you can do the same quality job using a simple ruler and
avoid the time it takes to do the math you have put money into your
pocket. time is money. just my thoughts…

BtY I can do both. Ruler is quicker for me.

38 
I think it was one of these I watched in action recently. It carves
(very accurately) the wax instead of building it line by line. 

I thought it was amazing! I think Boltons had the complete rings
on show at the fair (sydney) And ifthe gentleman that showed me
this is reading my comments, thank you for youkindness that day.

You were at the fair? Aw you may have seen me at the HOJ stand, I
was demonstrating PUK 4 and the new Auricle gold testers.

Regards Charles A.