For years, Leonid has been saying that Cad/Cam cannot make his ring
properly.
For years all the Cad/Cam dudes have been saying ‘pfffft’-- no
problem.
Then there was all this STL file talk and I’ve done this and I’ve
done that.
Eventually it came down to him giving permission to use the design.
He did.
So my question is this:
Could the Cad/Cam dudes please step up to the plate and show at
least a finished wax?
It’s been a while now and I am still waiting in the shadows.
Could the Cad/Cam dudes please step up to the plate and show at least a finished wax?
I would like to see it too. However, the main problem will be casting
it in metal. As I explained before, the areas where gallery touches
the base ring is very delicate. It will set before main body of
gallery and base. When gallery and base start setting, metal will
shrink away from these areas resulting in cracks.
Some cracks could be internal and invisible, but will show themselves
during setting and polishing. So successful test requires finished
ring including setting and polishing.
Leonid Surpin
Hey Hans,
When I got enough to finish the CAD, it was done in
about an hour.
As soon as I had done this I offered the file for people to
examine… only a few people took a copy.
The offer is still there, do you want a copy of the files to
examine?
Regards Charles A.
I would like to see it too. However, the main problem will be casting it in metal. As I explained before, the areas where gallery touches the base ring is very delicate. It will set before main body of gallery and base. When gallery and base start setting, metal will shrink away from these areas resulting in cracks.
Leonard, many of the CAD/CAM milling machines use a profile cutter
that has a very small tip radius (.005,.003 inch) and a side angle
of 5 to10 degrees. So, while the gallery will be very narrow on the
outside of where it touches the ring base, it will be wider inside,
giving it a triangular cross section. In any event, pits and cracking
can be tackled with laser welding any defects. That said, there is
nothing that compares with a professionally fabricated eternity band.
All that Leonid mentioned will not be a problem because the ring can
be castin two parts, cleaned and assembled.
Pieces done in CAD don’t need to be cast in one piece. This is a
situation where CAD and fabrication come together.
Please guys don’t start this again!
Vasken
The reason you have seen no wax is because the CAD artists see this
"challenge" for what it is; a fool’s errand. No amount of effort is
ever going to satisfy the likes of Leonid and none of us have any
desire to feed his need for schadenfreude.
Charlie
I can do a hand drawing of the ring also, there is no difference in
a cad picture than a hand drawn picture. Show me the finished piece.
I did not ever see a post about you having the file to show. Why not
just post the file and a picture of the finished piece. Time to step
up to the plate and put a piece where your mouth is.
Sorry for sounding abrupt but I am sick of hearing about what can be
done, I want to SEE what can be done.
Bill Wismar
I must have missed this. I’d like to see it! Thanks!
When I got enough to finish the CAD, it was done in about
an hour.
As soon as I had done this I offered the file for people to examine.
only a few people took a copy.
The offer is still there, do you want a copy of the files to examine?
Regards Charles A.
It’s not really a matter of feeding schadenfreude or starting this
again at all.
Simply put, if a customer walked into my shop with the picture that
was posted, I would have a hand made version ready for her in a week,
polished and set.
If someone gave me a wax of that model I would cast it for them
without cracks, porosity and any other monsters under the bed.
Trust me, I can do this stuff.
Problem is, I have not seen a wax.
Not even a picture of one.
So I genuinely want to know, can that ring be made in Cad/Cam?
That exact one.
Not a rendering, not a similar one-- a real physical one like in the
picture.
It has nothing to do with Leonid.
All that Leonid mentioned will not be a problem because the ring can be castin two parts, cleaned and assembled.
To do that one would have to insure that both parts have the same
rate of shrinkage, which is not trivial. What fit in a model, not
necessary fit after casting. And very tight fit is required! These
joints take all the stress during setting, polishing, and wear. So my
advice would be, before proposing half-baked solutions, one should
take time to study the ring and understand it’s construction.
Leonid Surpin
So, while the gallery will be very narrow on the outside of where it touches the ring base, it will be wider inside, giving it a triangular cross section. In any event, pits and cracking can be tackled with laser welding any defects.
Sounds like a plan. When can I see completed ring ?
Leonid Surpin
Sorry for sounding abrupt but I am sick of hearing about what can be done, I want to SEE what can be done.
I’ll send you the files, and I can assure you I did post the offer
of the files previously.
Regards Charles A.
The reason you have seen no wax is because the CAD artists see this "challenge" for what it is. a fool's errand. No amount of effort is ever going to satisfy the likes of Leonid and none of us have any desire to feed his need for schadenfreude.
I believe that there are not many on this forum who could approach
the level of skill Leonid has had to meet for the quality of jewelry
he created. As far as “schadenfreude”, I am sure that is not the
intent of Lenoid trying to educate those that do not have the
understanding that they might need to have to not be mediocre. It is
to the benefit of those who understand that the level of competence
to be excellent is contained the desire for excellence and learning
the discipline needed to acquire the skills and dedication to the
craft. I doubt I would last a day in any of the shops where Leonid
was employed.
Richard Hart G. G.
Denver, Co.
Charles
I am sure you must know that if I am not a CAD person I cannot open a
STL file. I don’t have the program nor do I want the program. Show me
the ring not a picture, I can draw the same picture. Also to Charlie
Omenif it is such a fools errand, prove us wrong. It is easy to put
down others with words. Show me the proof. I offered more than a year
ago to send the gold and diamonds to someone to make the ring and no
takers. I can draw a Faberge’ egg, does that mean I can make it.
Contrary to the expressed opinion that attempts to reproduce
Eternity ring is a fool’s errand, let me assure everybody that it is
not. I am not saying that it is easy to do it. I am saying that one
can learn a lot from even unsuccessful attempts. It is also good
demonstration of limitations of “wonder technologies”, which
supposedly will replace hand fabrication.
Let’s review what happened so far. Apparently CAD drawing was
completed.
Well, that is of little comfort. The next step is to make wax model.
Even if wax will be made, it does not guarantee success in casting,
setting, and finishing. Still, I would like to see the wax. Let’s see
how good these 3D printers are.
I have listed potential problems that can arise in casting. So far
two suggestions have been made to overcome it. One is to cast in
parts, and another to fix cracks and porosity using spark welder. I
have my doubts about successful outcome of either, but let’s for
argument sake assume that the usable ring will be obtained. Consider
the cost of such ring.
Since such rings cannot be sized, the process of
CAD/CAM/casting/fixing or assembling has to be repeated every time.
The question arises how long such process takes and how much it
costs. Even a rank beginner can fabricate this ring in a week, after
he/she understands my method. It means that the ring can be
commercially produced by hand-fabrication for about $600 in labour,
using less than 10grams of gold. The question is can “wonder
technologies” match it. We know it took an hour to make CAD drawing.
What I want to know is how much and how long for other phases of the
process. And that assuming that fixing part could produce nice
appearance without any rework, which I doubt greatly.
I am not sure that we get this data, but at least anyone can find
out for oneself.
That is why I believe that great deal can be learned from attempts
to reproduce the ring, whether successful or otherwise.
Leonid Surpin
So, while the gallery will be very narrow on the outside of where it touches the ring base, it will be wider inside, giving it a triangular cross section. In any event, pits and cracking can be tackled with laser welding any defects.
This is what I said, in full quote:
"Leonard, many of the CAD/CAM milling machines use a profile
cutter that has a very small tip radius (.005,.003 inch) and a
side angle of 5 to10 degrees. So, while the gallery will be very
narrow on the outside of where it touches the ring base, it will
be wider inside, giving it a triangular cross section. In any
event, pits and cracking can be tackled with laser welding any
defects. That said, there is nothing that compares with a
professionally fabricated eternity band. "
Leonard, in the future, please do not quote me partially. I make
items of this quality to order, after the client and I agree to a
price. No where in my quote did I offer to make one simply to satisfy
your needs. After 13 years of working with CAD/CAM, I am well aware
of both its limitations and strengths, and as the last line implies,
I would probably put my 40 years of fabrication experience to use in
making this particular ring. I enjoy the fabrication process and
experience. I work in my own shop at my own pace, and I can get up
and take the dogs for a walk to take a break.
Do us all a favor, Leonard, and share a few of the wonderful
techniques that you know while you still can. Be a mentor, it is a
truly rewarding experience.
Rick Hamilton
Sounds like a plan. When can I see completed ring ?
Leonard, when and if I have a client who wants one, of course.
Hi Leonid,
I’m still firm in my belief that the whole eternity ring is a fool’s
errand. That said, I feel the need to interject one little
correction.
Since such rings cannot be sized, the process of CAD/CAM/casting/fixing or assembling has to be repeated every time.
The question arises how long such process takes and how much it costs. Even a rank beginner can fabricate this ring in a week, after he/she understands my method. It means that the ring can be commercially produced by hand-fabrication for about $600 in labour, using less than 10grams of gold. The question is can "wonder technologies" match it. We know it took an hour to make CAD drawing.
What I want to know is how much and how long for other phases of the process. And that assuming that fixing part could produce nice appearance without any rework, which I doubt greatly.
Not exactly. There are iterative CAD systems that will allow you to
set up a set of parameters such that you just feed in a size for the
part ID (and possibly number of stones, and diameter), and it
recalculates all the other elements on the fly from there. Not just
scaling everything X percent, it actually scales various parts
differently, based on logical/relational relationships defined
during setup.
Amazing PITA to set up the first time, but plug-n-play from there.
Other than knowing that these systems exist, I don’t know much about
them. Never used them directly.
I have done something similar in my other life as a graphic
designer. For a while I specialized in variable data printing, which
was similar, in that you had to design the layout to accommodate
wide ranges of text and image size, as well as different images
being present (or not). These sort of things are used for catalogs,
and real-estate flyers. Ever notice that the real estate flyers
always show a house near yours? It’s picked out and printed on the
fly, based on your address. Same thing with most catalogs these
days: they know you’re a 40 year old male jogger, so they’re not
going to waste paper showing you pink snowboards or whatever. The
company has a database of customer data, and the printing computers
change the layout and contents on the fly, based on logical rules
working across the data.
Massive pain to set up, and check against outlier conditions the
first time around, but stupidly simple after that.
I imagine the iterative CAD systems are similarly front loaded. Not
worth the time for one eternity ring, (or even 20). Once you get
into hundreds, suddenly it makes much more sense.
Regards,
Brian.
I am saying that one can learn a lot from even unsuccessful attempts.
I absolutely agree Leonid. When I taught science at school, the
pupils wouldbe disappointed if their experiments didn’t work as they
planned. They thought it meant failure, until I turned it on its
head and explained that they could deduce as much from an experiment
that “didn’t work”, as they could from what they perceived as a
“successful” outcome. They were always happy oncethey learned to
think about things from a different perspective.
Helen
UK
Not exactly. There are iterative CAD systems that will allow you to set up a set of parameters such that you just feed in a size for the part ID (and possibly number of stones, and diameter), and it recalculates all the other elements on the fly from there. Not just scaling everything X percent, it actually scales various parts differently, based on logical/relational relationships defined during setup.
I would have to be an expert system built into CAD, which is aware of
limitations of availability of diamond sizes and been able to
recalculate all the dependent dimensions. But I accept that this is
possible.
However, the point is that we have to bring to bear very
sophisticated technologies just to replace a goldsmith with little
more than a simple ruler.
That is the ingenuity of hand-fabrication methods.
Leonid Surpin