Water torches

Jewelry Discussion
21

Lori,

replying to the suggestion from Richard W. to use the natural gas
line plus an O2 tank in my condo. This is STRICTLY forbidden by
all fire codes and my insurance company. The building's contractor
was horrified that I even asked him. (Now he looks at me like I am
crazy every time he sees me.) I could never have this or any type
of tank set-up INSIDE a condo. Even this brick one covered from a
1900's factory. The ramifications of doing this would be so far
reaching. and the liability would be quite severe.

This is untrue in one respect. It can be completely safe if you use
a natural gas booster like the one made by gas tech. It filters and
compresses the gas to bring it up to safe operating pressures.=C2=A0 T=
he
main reason one doesn’t use natural gas straight from the wall is
that the line pressure is not enough to use a flashback arrestor.
There was a few cases in new York City of gas meters exploding from
people using gas straight from the wall.

The gas tech unit is the safest thing I can think of for a torch.
Not only does it have flashback arrestors. It is set up to
automatically shut off in the event of a hose rupture.

Tldr: natural gas from the wall= not safe. Using a natural gas
booster = safe

Richard

22 
BTW - these units are NOT expensive (as someone mentioned) and are
WAAAYYYY overpriced from certain US sources. You can get these for
about $150 delivered OR you can make your own - see the many
instructions online. they are basically a modified car battery.

They are not in any way shape or form a modified car battery. They
are an electrolytic cell and are very simple devices and there are
several instructions on how to make them online and every one I have
seen is lacking in any safety equipment. The hydrogen and oxygen
released by these home made cells are not separated or contained in
a safe fashion. If you have a leak or over pressure in your system
which is highly likely given the way most of these devices are being
made you can end up with a bomb just waiting to blow your shop up.
Yes if you know what you are doing you can make and operate them in
a safe fashion but if you don’t know what you are doing or don’t
think the safety devices and proper construction techniques are
necessary you could easily kill yourself or worse someone else.
There are very good reasons for the cost of these systems from
responsible manufacturers.

James Binnion

23

You can tell your MIT engineer that here in NYC the entire jewelry
industry works with plumbed natural gas. That includes every shop
from a one-man repair kiosk on 47th street to large ateliers like
Oscar Heyman.

It may be that the natural gas provided in NYC is more consistent
than that in other parts of the country. Our tap water is of
superlative quality, why not the gas?

24

Whatever fuel you use, when you mix pressurized oxygen and fuel gas
in a jewelry torch you need a genuine flashback arrestor, not a
simple check valve. In most places jewelers using piped natural gas
can’t put a flashback arrestor on their gas line because the pressure
is so low that the flashback arrestor actually blocks gas flow.

A G-TEC Torch Booster raises utility gas pressure enough so that you
can use a flashback arrestor and get a robust flame at the torch.
Torch Boosters are required by the Fire Code for NYC jewelers using
piped gas and a smart idea for jewelers anywhere using piped gas.

Find out more at the upcoming MJSA Expo in NYC - G-TEC will be part
of the Gesswein exhibit and I invite you to stop by to ask questions.

Ed Howard

25

With all the limitations you’ve got, unless I missed something said
earlier, why not use a butane torch? There are a few different kinds
that might work for a few of your needs and limit the call for trips
to Boston.

It might be looked down upon by some jewelers, but then again, it
can accomplish so much. It’s hardly more than a creme brulee torch,
but gets the job done for many average tasks. Of course, the butane
torches have their limits, like I said, so it won’t be enough to keep
you from going to Boston,

Anyhow, good luck finding a solution!

Cheers,
Becky

26 
You can tell your MIT engineer that here in NYC the entire jewelry
industry works with plumbed natural gas. That includes every shop
from a one-man repair kiosk on 47th street to large ateliers like
Oscar Heyman.

You might want to find out what is legally required in NYC. If the
natural gas is not supplied at 5 PSI (which is unheard of except in
industrial situations) you are required to use a device to raise the
pressure of piped in NG so that a flashback arrestor will operate
properly on the natural gas line to the torch. Now this was not
always the case and what is required and what is actually done
before people get caught is also a different thing. But a series of
explosions in gas lines in places using natural gas at normal
pressure (7 inches water column) that thank goodness mostly caused
property damage made NYC change their codes.

Here is a link to the FDNY study material to get a torch operators
certificate which believe it or not is required for torch use in
jewelry and dental manufacturing in NYC. I am not saying everyone
who should have this certificate has one but if you have a fire
safety inspection and you don’t have one it could be expensive.
Anyhow check out section 3.2 to see requirements for piped natural
gas. Also this is not a bad torch safety study guide no matter where
you work.

CERTIFICATE OF FITNESS EXAMINATION G-61 FOR TORCH USE IN MANUFACTURE
OF JEWELRY AND DENTAL LAB OPERATION
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81ty [PDF file]

James Binnion

27 
if you notice some of the tips sold by vendor are plastic syringe
type tip that tend to burn up when you increase the heat and it
reflect back onto your torch! BUY THE METAL Tips or Tip Sets
ONLY-keep some of the assorted plastic-y ones for back-ups.

Just a comment on this. The cheapest place to get the all-metal
torch tips for water torches is from veterinary supply places.

The ones sold by the torch manufacturers are simply Luer lock
needles that have had the sharp tip carefully ground off.

When L&R, the company that made my torch, was still in the torch
business they wanted $25 for one such torch tip.

I got a box of 12 from a vet supply site for under $7.

Google “stainless steel veterinary hypodermic needle” or “aluminum
hub hypodermic needle” to find sources.

The aluminum hub ones seem come in a wider variety of lengths than
the all-steel ones. I’ve seen them available in gauges from 14ga down
to 24ga.

Warning, some sites and some states require you to have a medical
license or a prescription to order these items online.

But there are sites that will sell to the public. Here’s one
example: Stainless Steel Hypodermic Needles Neogen - Needles | Needles Syringes

Once you purchase needles, simply grind off the sharp points with a
fine grit wheel, then blow or rinse out the swarf so the needle does
not clog.

If you accidentally buy needles that are too long (like I did the
first time–do not buy 3" needles…), you can shorten them with a
mini-pipe cutting tool or a jeweler’s saw, then smooth the end with
sandpaper.

Be very careful handling them—before the sharp tips are removed,
these things are like tiny razor blades. In fact I use one mounted
on a handle as a wax carving tool. :slight_smile:

Kathy Johnson

28

Don’t overlook butane torches- they do most silver soldering
beautifully and can even melt small quantities of gold :
Bernz-o-matic brand (that have removable bases to stand upright on
flat surfaces) can reach 2400 degrees Fahrenheit : enough for most
plumb solders to flow They also accomplish annealing lighter gauge
metals in any shape or form from fine silver, sterling and argentium
to light gauge yellow and most coloured golds (white golds above 22
gauge may encounter problems if they are nickel based, Purple and
blue golds that you alloy yourself call for a modification of the
technique- for instance you have to melt the components in separate
crucibles then pour together into a dedicated well glazed crucible
then stir well and in the case of purple, if you know the 'secret’
of getting a malleable ingot/wire/sheet then do that operation once
the two + metals etc roll together uniformly in that crucible before
pouring into your well heated mould !) The torches also enamel (the
torch fired enamel method) if the metal is well countered unless
it’s plique a jour - which works well itself as the heat only has to
melt a layer or so of glass frit and get it to adhere to heated edges
in the piece. It also is inexpensive to purchase (under 30 bucks at
most home stores. This is one case where the harbour freight models
for 10 bucks are not as high a quality as the branded ones even
though they appear similar, and other models by the same company
don’t preform as well- in fact on the cartridge shaped bernz-o-matic
3 of 3 units leaked out of the package!).

If you can cook in your building you can always say you were toning
a meringue and carried the torch into the studio unconsciously !
Point is its about as safe as a cigarette lighter!..rer

29 
 I think you're mistake was asking. Get a little torch with the
small propane and oxygen bottles and never bring it up to anyone
in the building again.

It can be completely safe if you use a natural gas booster like the
one made by gas tech.

I can see problems with these comments -

  1. If you keep quiet about using a torch of any kind - especially if
    it has been expressly forbidden - if there should be an accident of
    some kind (unlikely, I grant, but possible) then you will not have a
    leg to stand on regarding liability and you could easily be
    bankrupted and ruined by reparations. This would be especially so if
    you live/work in a shared building of some kind. Insurance will drop
    you like a hot potato.

  2. It might well be perfectly safe as far as we people who use these
    things are concerned, but we’re talking about perception here, not
    necessarily actuality. And if insurance and fire regs forbid -
    however safe these things really may be - then you’re screwed and you
    have to look for some other way of dealing with this.

We all know accidents do happen, even in the most careful of
environments, and it’s at least best to be sensible and make sure
your insurance will cover you if the worst does occur. It’s a pain -
I know, because I have been trying to find a solution for this: but
there’s always a way through, though you may have to limit your
ambitions a bit. Search for other ways of getting the effects you
want: we’re creative people - so think outside the box and be
creative!

Janet

30

Janet - Thanks so much for your comments to the suggestion that I
“keep my mouth shut” about gas in my condo:

I think you're mistake was asking. Get a little torch with the
small propane and oxygen bottles and never bring it up to anyone in
the building again. 

It can be completely safe if you use a natural gas booster like
the one made by gas tech. 

I can see problems with these comments - 

1. If you keep quiet about using a torch of any kind - especially
if it has been expressly forbidden - if there should be an accident
of some kind (unlikely, I grant, but possible) then you will not
have a leg to stand on regarding liability and you could easily be
bankrupted and ruined by reparations. This would be especially so
if you live/work in a shared building of some kind. Insurance will
drop you like a hot potato. 

 2. It might well be perfectly safe as far as we people who use
these things are concerned, but we're talking about perception
here, not necessarily actuality. And if insurance and fire regs
forbid - however safe these things really may be - then you're
screwed and you have to look for some other way of dealing with
this. 

We all know accidents do happen, even in the most careful of
environments, and it's at least best to be sensible and make sure
your insurance will cover you if the worst does occur. It's a pain
- I know, because I have been trying to find a solution for this:
but there's always a way through, though you may have to limit your
ambitions a bit. Search for other ways of getting the effects you
want: we're creative people - so think outside the box and be
creative!

I worked in the legal field (ins/contract litigation) over 20 yrs -
incl 5 yrs as a police officer. I would be totally SCREWED of I
brought in any gas bottles into the condo and lied about it to
anyone. Heck, I got chewed out by the insurance adjuster just for
having a blazer Professional Butane Torch in a box on my worktable
(note the label on the box and on all the websites that sell it -
“for industrial use only.” A mishap would destroy 3 units in this
loft building - and one of those units is a $650K unit. (we live in
one of the most expensive places in the US - mine is a $200K unit -
it is far smaller). That be a REAL great thing. And we would be both
criminally and civilly liable. Heck - it would kill people and their
pets.

Janet is so right - you never know what could happen. For example,
our former home’s ceiling fell in on me 5 yrs ago. We had no idea
the building management lied to the residents and was maintaining
the roof or the empty area between the roof an the units at all -
and whole time the roof was leaking into that space above our unit -
and saturated the wood, plasterboard, etc, causing everything,
including live electrical wires, HVAC ductwork and hundreds of
gallons of water to crash into our place. $60K property damage and 2
surgeries for damage to my body. You never know what could happen.
Those who fail to plan - plan to fail. Deception never got anyone
anywhere good.

The major problem is my husband. He will absolutely not allow any
gas into the home. I snuck my culinary butane torch back home after
I had a bad accident with a small Blazer-type torch (refill nozzle
had a slow leak - BOOM!).

He bought the water torch for me b/c he thought it was a safe
alternative. The flame concerns him - I will make a fire resistant
tiny “booth” to solder in/on and prove to him its safe.

I will use the culinary butane torch for large things and the water
torch for the tiny things.

At least the water torch can’t explode like a gas tank - or leak
like gas tank.

Now to find the necessary chemicals at a REASONABLE price.

Thanks again to everyone that has answered my queries, both on and
off list.

Best,
Lori

31

Lori,

Cold connections, find a studio outside your home where you can work
with torches.

32

I was born and raised in South Florida. So I have a lot of
experience and knowledge about condos and what we call “condo
commandos”.

The liability issues are very real and should not be ignored,
however, there is so much irony and ridiculousness about some of the
rules that I can write a book about it.

For one thing, if condo management is really worried about safety of
residents, then mathematically speaking, they would have to outlaw
pressure cookers. Pressure cookers are far more likely to result in
serious accidents then any torch. But I guess since there are
specific codes written for fire safety, this common sense approach is
thrown out the window and only things having to do with fires are
written into condo laws.

(Not to mention, that at the last condo I rented, 30% of the
residents had multiple pure oxygen tanks all over their condo and
their storage lockers, which is not big deal to me, I know they are
safe).

Another ridiculous rule that condos have is by only classifying dogs
by their weight in terms of which dog can live in a condo. Now this
is a rule that causes me to never purchase a condo even if I lose the
use of every limb on my body… (and I don’t even own a dog, so it’s
not because I have a large dog and wanted to buy or rent a condo with
one)

The stupidity of this rule lies in this… They allow small
dogs only… well 75% or more of every small dog I’ve ever seen in
any condo in Florida in 38 years of my life was a terrier of some
kind. Guess what terriers love to do? They bark their butts off. So
when I rented condos, guess what you hear all day? It didn’t really
bother me but the stupidity of this rule of small dogs had what we
call in economics a “negative externality”.

If condos allowed medium size dogs or larger, the likelihood of all
the dogs in the association being a terrier who love to bark goes
down a lot.

Here is another ridiculous rule. You have have a spotless brand new
truck that is obviously not used as a work vehicle. But most condos
would not allow you to park there. But if you have a run down old van
that is used as a work vehicle… you’re perfectly fine.

The stupidity of some of their rules is beyond my abilities to
speak. LOL

I seriously should write a book about it. :slight_smile: