Watch workshop?

I am wondering, are we looking to make a high end horological
wonder, or a beautiful statement in design and fashion? And who is
the target market for the finished product? Is this for the purpose
of satisfying the maker or the customer? These issues do matter. 

Indeed, and this is basically what I meant with my previous post. I
don’t want to make a high end horological wonder. I just want to make
something fun and funky. ( sorry for the cliche) Cool to wear for a
few months, running on a good battery powered movement.

Here are a few examples of what I made in the late 1980’s.

http://www.meevis.com/art19b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art20b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art21b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art22b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art23b.htm
http://www.meevis.com/art28b.htm

They not waterproof or shockproof-- just proof of concept, really. So
they get taken off before the shower.

No big deal, just some fun to wear ( for the current girlfriend at
that time, no pun ) for a while and the “check what I have just
made” thing.

I have made more serious watches out of gold that are waterproof and
shock proof, but that is not the subject of this post, and I
presume, not the watch that Noel had in mind.

Cheers, Hans
http://www.meevis.com

Noel,

I highly recommend the George Daniels book Watchmaking. It will
cover a lot of detail that isn’t of any use to you, however, it is an
excellent resource for this sort of endeavor. There is a new printing
of it due out this year.

Instead of buying a cheap watch, just buy the movement.
www.ofrei.com have a good selection of cheap Chinese mechanical
movements from $15 each, all the way up to quality Swiss movements
for $600+. You can also find other parts you are unwilling or unable
to make yourself.

My suggestion is to find a nice Swiss movement that you like (the
ETA 2824 is a good movement to look at), and buy the Chinese
equivalent (make sure it is the same size, with the same features.)
When you have finished a case that you’re happy with, buy the Swiss
movement and swap out the cheap one. If you damage the Chinese
movement while making the case, you’ve only spent $15-40 on the
movement.

Good luck

Chris Manning

I suppose I could Google it, but suspect I'd be wading through a
lot of junk leads, so I'm hoping your experience can save me a
bunch of wasted web search time... 

To correct any mis-impressions - I do not have any practical
experience in this. All I know is the results of a research I did
when I considered getting into it. As far as sources: Otto Frei is
pretty good. Check out oldswisswatches.com. I have heard that Jules
Borel and Esslinger quite good as well.

A disclaimer: there is a lot of made in China movements out there.
One has to be careful.

The best way to start on this endeavor is to take a introductory
course with ETA. website is www.eta.ch Most of the watches in the
world carrying their movements. It will cost a few dollars, but will
save a lot of money in the long run, that is if one wants to get into
this business.

If I would be called to do it right now, I would collaborate with
and experienced watchmaker. I would do case in the rough and let him
handle all the fitting, assembling, and adjusting. I would ask
watchmaker to supply parts as well.

Leonid Surpin

Here are a few examples of what I made in the late 1980's. 

Nice jobs, in general. I’ll point out again that a watch is just a
box that holds a movement, with a few necessities - crystal, access
to the crown. It’s absolutely a matter of taste, but I had one and
only one watch without markings on the dial, and never again. In
fact, I gave it away after not too long, and bought another watch.
Certainly I’m smart enough to tell time, I just don’t like it. Which
opens up another issue of making a dial, or buying one, or whatever.

Cheap movement in fine case is nothing but a fraud. 

No, that’s fashion, or is fashion a fraud? Lets open up a high
fashion, Gucci watch, or a Movado Museum Piece (displayed in the
Smithsonian), or a Tag Heur, and take a look at its inexpensive - 10
to 40$ wholesale ETA Swiss quartz movement. Is that fraud- or
fashion - or both? I work on these brands almost daily and I know
whats inside them. And I’m sure the people who work at making these
watch brands don’t consider their work to be fraudulent?

It is like a man who is wearing expensive suit, but having no
underwear beneath it, because he could not afford one. 

But is he wearing no underwear because he cant afford them or
because it suits him not to wear them? Or he could wear thongs that
contain less material but probably cost more than other kinds with
more material. Is this fraud, or fashion? Bed sheets are another
example. I buy a variety made of t shirt material that happen to be
the cheapest kind on the market (often sold for the college dorm
market), because I like the feel of them, yet I could easily afford a
set for each day of the week of the finest sheets made. Is this
fraudulent, or is it preference?

Ed

Lets open up a high fashion, Gucci watch, or a Movado Museum Piece
(displayed in the Smithsonian), or a Tag Heur 

I am not sure I get your point. Luxury brand names are different
from custom made. To make a custom case takes a lot of time and
resources. At the very least, the movement should last a life time.
What is the point charging several thousands for a case containing
cheap movement. It is nothing but a fraud. Client thinks that he is
getting custom watch, but it is only an empty shell. I simply do not
know what else to call it.

Leonid Surpin

Which opens up another issue of making a dial, or buying one, or
whatever. 

Depending on quality of dial you want, one way is create your dial on
the pc and print it on glossy photo paper(thinner varieties are
better) then glue to the existing dial. PC printer decal
paper(clear) also has its use in these applications. A few issues to
consider are, 1) hand shaft height, and 2)hands installed so they
clear each other as well as the underside of the crystal. If you use
a Miyota 2035, the hand shaft, or cannon pinion is a normal height
and once a printed dial is applied to the existing dial the shaft/s
may not extend enough thru the dial for the hands, once attached, to
clear the dial. In this instance, use a Miyota 2036, which has a tall
cannon pinion, and extends thru the dial slightly higher, giving
hand clearance over the printed, thicker-than-normal dial. And 3)
Dial markers- cheaper dials with painted numbers or dial markers are
best as this type creates no obstruction for applying the new printed
dial. Whereas some dial markers are raised but are stamped in from
the back and cannot be changed-big problem. Also some dial markers
are attached to the front with miniscule pegs, friction fit into
tiny holes drilled in the dial- easily removed and sometimes reused.
I have done hundreds of printed dial watches, using photos of people,
motorcycles, logos, etc… as well as applying birthstones for dial
markers.

Ed

To start with, I don’t believe the original thread was about several
thousand dollar watches. By the way, the picture that was shown of
the custom made piece is quite nice. In addition whats fraudulent
about a $700 movement that will require several hundred dollars of
service in a 10 yr period (if properly maintained ie cleaning,
reoiled, gasket change, etc…), and that’s if the watch is not
damaged by abuse, dropped, hit… versus a $5 movement that will
require nothing more than 5-6 battery changes (average $8-10 each
every 1 1/2 to 3 yrs) in the same 10 yr period, and, if movement goes
bad it can be totally replaced for $35 retail while the customer
stands and waits for the repair? Also, every day I see watches with
inexpensive quartz movements (example- Miyota 2035) that have been
worn daily for the last 20 years and still going strong. What I do
see go bad is cheaply made cases, worn/abused hard, no maintenance,
and then the case leaks dirt and water fouling the movement. This
will happen whether it’s a fine mechanical or a $5 quartz. Generally
speaking, the case is usually the original problem, not the movement.
The fouled movement is a result, not the cause. In addition, I would
put the majority of quartz movements up against any mechanical
movement for accuracy comparison. I simply do not know what else to
say in defense of the inexpensive quartz movements. I’m not saying
the several hundred dollar movement is bad, but I seriously believe
the inexpensive quartz movement will certainly suit many peoples
needs most adequately even in a custom made case or shell.

Ed

At the very least, the movement should last a life time. What is
the point charging several thousands for a case containing cheap
movement. It is nothing but a fraud. Client thinks that he is
getting custom watch, but it is only an empty shell. I simply do
not know what else to call it. 

In this case, as I made clear at the outset, there is no client,
only me. The kind of thing Hans did is very much in the right spirit.
I’m not out to defraud anyone, and I’m pretty sure I don’t want to
make watches to sell. Just too darned much trouble when things go
wrong with expensive parts I didn’t make, can’t fix, and don’t want
to learn to fix.

Noel

...use a Miyota 2036, which has a tall cannon pinion, and extends
thru the dial slightly higher, giving hand clearance over the
printed, thicker-than-normal dial 

What is the normal thickness of a dial? My thought was to substitute
my own, probably titanium, for whatever was provided. So, what gauge
would I be likely to need?

Noel

Also some dial markers are attached to the front with miniscule
pegs, friction fit 

Over the years I’ve developed a kind of “the nature of time” train
of thought - I thought I’d share it here, since it’s in keeping with
the topic. First, let’s back up a little…

You’re reading this thread, and you are a good reader, as most here
probably are. You may think you are reading so:
I-have-gotten-a-big-kick- out-of-this-thread, word by word. But
you’re not, you are reading word groups, which are graphic images.
If I say, “this is my house”, your brain picks out that entire
phrase, as a unit, because it’s familiar to you. Just as you don’t
pick each word apart, letter by letter, most people also don’t
actually read words, they read phrases. Most people aren’t really
aware of it, they just do it. It’s also the reason why a difficult
text takes a long time to read, and why a strange font is hard to
read. You don’t recognize the graphic images, and you need to pick
them out one by one.

Hopefully readers can make the leap from that to understanding that
a watch or a clock is not just a timepiece, it’s a time-calculating
device. I believe it’s the reason why digital clocks came and went,
by and large. It’s 11:28am as I write this. That’s what a digital
clock tells you, that it’s 11:28am. But my glance at the clock also
tells me that it’s a half hour till noon, and that my work day is
about 1/2 finished. Sometimes you may say, “I have five minutes
until I need to leave”. More often you look at a watch and it tells
you, “I have ~this~~ amount of time which is impossible to
verbalize but it’s a recognizable chunk of time that represents just
about enough time for me to comb my hair and get my jacket before I
go”. IOW, although we communicate in hours and minutes, we don’t
necessarily THINK in them so much as that the sweep of that hand
through that space on the clock is time enough to brush your teeth.
Take my words and watch yourself and be aware of your thoughts for a
bit. I’ll bet you’ll find yourself thinking more in mental chunks of
time than actual minutes. It’s a half hour till lunch is more “Time
enough to finish this work” than it is literally 30 minutes, in most
people’s consciousness. Hard to put into words, but I think most
people will understand what I’m saying, on some real level.

Which takes us back to recognizable graphic images. If you look at a
typical clock face (as an adult), you know at a glance what time it
is, what time it will be, how long it has been since before, and how
long it will be until then. All in a glance. That’s our time
calculating device. If you remove the dots on the face, then you
need to think about it: The big hand is there, and the small hand is
there, so it’s this time. Aside from the fact that you can’t really
tell time to the minute any more, you need to think about it for a
second. We are adults, so it’s only a second, but to me it’s too
much - to many people it’s too much, in fact. That’s why most
watches with blank dials are more jewelry than timepieces - “Dress
Watches”. This isn’t some tirade against such watches, though. It’s
just to acquaint people with the notion that a watch is more than
just awatch. If you mess around too much with the important things -
the shape, the dial and the hands, people will lose that familiar
graphic image, and you will have lost them as buyers or even just
watch wearers/enjoyers…A watch (or clock) is something most of us
don’t think so much about, but it’s part of life in ways many don’t
think much about, either. Keeping it effortless is a big part of a
successful watch… Just some thoughts…

Aside from the fact that you can't really tell time to the minute
any more, you need to think about it for a second. We are adults,
so it's only a second, but to me it's too much - to many people
it's too much, in fact. 

Interesting. Speaking strictly for myself, I’m pretty sure the
numbers or dots play no actual role for me at all. I like to have 1
so I know where the top is, but other than that, I’m pretty sure I
read the info I need just as fast without them-- unless I do need to
know precisely when, say 3 minutes are up.

My current, very ugly watch is a style I’ve worn for many years
because it has a feature I really value-- at the touch of a button,
it will ring in 1, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30 minutes. I use this feature
several times a day, for etching, cooking, all kinds of things where
I don’t want to lose track of time. I sure wish I could get that on
an attractive watch, but I’ve only ever found it on these cheap,
ugly, digital Casio watches.

Noel

What is the normal thickness of a dial? 

Actually, I’ve never measured a dials thickness, so I don’t know the
answer. But I will tomorrow when I get to the store. I have 2 lds
seikos laying on my bench, waiting to be reassembled. I’ll measure
those and a few other brands thru out the day and see what I get.

Ed

To start with, I don't believe the original thread was about
several thousand dollar watches. 

Really! What do you think custom case is going to cost?

Leonid Surpin

At the very least, the movement should last a life time. What is
the point charging several thousands for a case containing cheap
movement. It is nothing but a fraud. Client thinks that he is
getting custom watch, but it is only an empty shell. I simply do
not know what else to call it. 

Nothing last a life time except maybe the client.

I see nothing wrong with a decent quartz battery movement. Most
clients want an accurate watch and could care less about what is
under the case back. Telling some one with a new $20K mechanical
watch that a couple of minutes a week is to be expected is not fun.
Well maybe fun if their watch choice was just for vanity :-).

I actually worry when a client starts to poke around inside their
watch, I have some experience but there are things in there which
still command respect

jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

I only had the opportunity to measure dial thickness on 2 dials
today-was extremely busy from open to close. One measured.39mm and
the other .35mm-both were lds Seikos. I hope this helps you in your
quest. If I can help anymore, just let me know, on or offline.

Ed

at the touch of a button, it will ring in 1, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20 or
30 minutes. 

Any good chronograph will more or less do that, Noel - maybe not as
easily. And my little essay wasn’t really directed towards anybody in
particular - just some thoughts about the nature of watch-ness.

Noel - and others - might find this useful, too:

It’s an Orchid-style place for watchmakers and enthusiasts. Under
“watch talk” is a category for watchmaking and repair. Under
“resources and to ols” is a very great deal of Not a
place I really use, just something I found long ago and tucked away
in favorites. Nice site, though. Lots there, that’s fer sure.

Really! What do you think custom case is going to cost? 

I believe we’re talking about a first shot at case making, for one’s
own enjoyment, and probably in sterling. To risk a $700 movement in a
situation like this is not too wise. I doubt anyone starts out stone
setting with big emeralds, ya know.