Note: If setting up a "cheap " centrifugal system... don't
forget that you still need to buy a vacuum sytem for debubbling
the investment.
Hi, I haven’t jumped in to this point, but this puzzles
me. Sure, if you want to spend the money , a vacuum would be
ideal. However, I have seen posts on orchid that provide
instructions for homeade vacuuum systems. I myself use an old
fashioned method of vibrating investment. Of course, I do one of
a kind work, involving only a few castings at a time. At the
commercial level I could see the benefits of a vacuum system.
However, Orchid is comprised of all levels and the vibration
method has, for me, eliminated bubbles and porosity. The question
and supposition of “need” has a lot to do with an individual’s
means and methods. Let’s not forget it is the vast ingenuity of
this list and people like it that keep our field fresh. If I may
say, my casting setup is about as cheap as you get and I am
capable of turning out quality work… just making do with what I
can get
With all of this discussion on the pro’s and con’s of vaccuum
casting, I thought someone might have a slightly used unit for
sale. Looking for everything including oven. I haven’t cast for
25 years, but am reverting back to my designer roots more and
more and will soon have the space to cast. Also looking for a
wax gun, the kind that puts out a stream of wax. Wrey made
one…I think. Anyways, my e-mail is @jbkjewel.
Hi Jim, I’ve been casting comercially for twelve years. I
started casting 22 years ago. Centrifugal IS the best for most
things. Jag is right that a good casting techie can get any
machine to work. If I was selling Vac machines I would recomend
them. I do casting for dozens and dozens of designers and need
%100 reliability…ergo centro! I also have a Memco Inducto-Vac,
I call it our LOCM (large object casting machine!) The only other
comment I dare make is that some people prefer IBM and some
prefer Mac! J.A. J.A. Henkel Co., Inc. Moldmaking, Casting And
Finnishing. See our ad in Metalsmith Mag. A’Dios
Strange, but I seem to have been doing centrifical casting for
years without a vacum. I use debubbleizing solution, allow it to
sit on the waxes for about 15 minites, mix my investment (Kerr
Satincast 20) and vibrate the mixture for a couple of minites. I
then invest the flask and vibrate again until no bubbles surface.
Mount my waxes so no air is trapped and this works just fine for
me.
I honestly don’t understand the incredibly long thread on this
subject. If I’ve learned anything at all in my 20 year career,
it’s that no method works the same for everyone. Steve
I too have used the graphite seals for years with perforated
flasks and have had very economical results. Most of the castings
I produce require a flask temperature of 1200 F and these seals
hold up very well.
Hi JB, most supply companies such as gesswein and contenti carry
used casting equipment as well as new and they usually stand
behind their used equipment in case of problems.Another source
for used casting equipment is AA used machinery in Providence Ri
ask for tony Tel.401-781-6111 …He would be cheaper, but if it
doesn’t work , shipping machinery back and forth can be
expensive. Gesswein has a list of used equipment for sale …
contact Elaine … she should be able to help Daniel Grandi Racecarjewelry.com
I agree with you 100% on everything. I thought we had an
excellent last word on this “no win” debate. I found it was
really the big guys against the litlle guy. I use a vacuum for
debubbling, sometimes I think it is more because I teaching
private classes and want to give them their money’s worth in
equipement. i do tteach them you way with out the vacuum caster.
Please join the new list at Jewelrymaking@listbot.com we would
love your imput. – Don Norris @Donald_Norris PO Box 2433 Estes
Park, CO 80517
Dear Daniel: If I might offer an alternative to a do it yourself
solution for platinum, we offer an excellant machine manufactured
in Japan which casts platinum by PRESSURE. It is a major
breakthrough in technology as it has not been known in USA until
recently. Although the machine is relatively expensive,around
$30,000, it will cast 60 grams of platinum, 150 grams of gold
better than anything you have ever seen.We are presenting a paper
on the subject during MJSA Expo NY March 27. Send me a note if
you want a copy of the paper. Roger Greene, Eisinger Ent.
Strange, but I seem to have been doing centrifical casting for
years without a vacum. I use debubbleizing solution, allow it to
sit on the waxes for about 15 minites, mix my investment (Kerr
This brings up a good question. For years, I used debubblizing
solutions. I lost a lot of castings. When I quit using these
solutions my failure rate decreased by at least 80%. I think
that this stuff badly affected the strength of the investment. I
vacuum the investment with no debubblizer these days. Any other
opinions?
I must differ on your opinion concerning centrifical casting.
You’re projecting a mindset that, despite your irrelevant comment
that it’s the 90’s is off beam. You can spend 10’s of thousands
of dollars and set yourself up with a state-of-the-art casting
shop, work day & night and knock out hundreds of thousands of
perfectly done pieces and loose your shirt! There is NO WAY you
can compete with the big casting houses when it comes to your
customer’s cost-per-piece. Please think about this: in order to
survive in the “90’s” and beyond, you must specialize. Do
something different from the commerical producers. This is where
the future lies in jewelery and many other fields as well.(are
you reading this Future Farmers of America/world?) Centrifical
casting works just as well as vacume casting. I know, I’ve done
both for over 20 years. Centrifical is simply less complex and
costly to set up. Don’t become spooked by the "bigger is better"
mindset and that you must butt heads with the big boys. Believe
me, you’ll loose. Specialize! Find a style/fabrication method,
type of setting or material you like and run with it. Show your
customers something they’ve never seen before. break "new"
ground. This is what keeps us all fresh and interested in what
we’re doing. Also, try to think of jewelery as an ART. Not
merely a method to make a buck. If you think that way, you might
as well quit, become a drone and get yourself a job with one of
the big producers.
The vacuuming of the investment not only takes the bubbles out
but also causes the water to boil at room temperature which
releases the surfactant in the investment to help insure the
smooth flow of the investment over the wax pattern.
Regards,
Skip
Skip Meister @Skip_Meister
N.R.A. Endowment &
Certified Instructor
in all disciplines
Certified Illinois D.N.R.
Hunter Ed, Instructor
Hi Rob C. No, I’m not “wrong again”. i merely mentioned buying a
vac table as no method of debbublizing had been mentioned in the
article and that is the prefered method. Vibrators work fine for
small trees with few a simple items. On some jewelry items, they
don’t work well on at all.Also , when i recommend equipment , i
don’t recommend the absolutely cheapest way to go, but rather , a
system that will handle a bit of everything and do it well.Most
people who begin casting don’t stay at 1 or 2 pieces a week and
if all you wish to do is a few pcs a week,it would be cheaper to
send your carved waxes to a professional caster rather than buy
the equipment . I turn around carved wax castings in 48 hours and
offer mold making services as well. Sincerely Daniel Grandi
Hello TerryS. Your absolutely right. It is possible to vac and
cast in a number of different ways… and it all depends to what
extent you wish to bring it. I am used to having people ask me
how to get excellent castings and repeatability on a wide variety
of styles and items. most jewelers and designers will not only
design heavy , solid items, but will also design items that are
long and thin … with filigree involved . Imagine that you are
in their shoes and you buy a piece of machinery that will only
handle a 2 x3 flask and tommorrow you get a custom job for a
carved bracelet that requires the use of a flask that is 4" by
7" to accomodate the piece and the sprues… well you can
always cut the wax into 4 seperate pieces and solder it together
after they are cast…( you make do with what you have). The
reality of making recommendations to people who are just getting
started hit home when someone buys a method and equipment and
suddenly find out they can’t do what they wanted and become
angry at you for not recommending something else. The Vac
table/caster at $700 is a piece of machinery that does 1 or 2
pieces to whatever oven size you decide to buy and will handle
literally any flask size up to a 6" x8" flask( at this size, the
bell jar won’t handle the flask when debubblizing unless you do
some ingenious thinking). I think it would be a great idea If all
of you who have come up with other methods of investing and
casting post your methods with detailed explanation of exactly
what the systems you are recommending can and cannot do… and
how long it took you to get proficient at it and in this manner
will help the people on orchid even more. Sincerely, Daniel Grandi
It is interesting to note that i have never made a comparison
between the big guy caster , the small caster or beginner and
that these statements were started by the one person who is
starting a seperate list for the beginner. There are tons of
beginners who profit by listening to people with engineering ,
casting experience,model making ,bench working, soldering
,stonesetting and polishing . Just because a person has failed
at getting excellent results in a particular method does not mean
that that method is no good. You have to “learn” how to do it! I
sold all my large casting equipment years ago so that i could
devote more time to consulting and running a much smaller
organization using simple inexpensive to use equipment that gets
excellent results. truly, this is a no win debate. However, there
can be a lot of loosers. If this is considered “flaming”, then
please accept my apology as i have no intention of flaming
anyone. I simply wish to offer my years of experience to those
that might need it.I certainly don’t want to start a seperate
list just for the experienced caster. Sincerely, Daniel Grandi
Dan: You have made my point. This is exactly what I was saying.
It is great for all the large casters, the best way! I was
replying to a request about what is the best way to start out for
a beginner, I thought. I quess I was wrong. I am sorry for my
part of this continuing arguement about which is best. Some one,
and I should have kept the email, had the last word on this, and
was 100 percent right on! It boils down to every process has its
place in different situations!
I did know that large casters used vacuum, what I have learned
from you and some other large casters, is the vast amount of
casting that they do! I really had no idea, none. I was
completely blown away. I know, I was ignorant! I thought casting
a couple of hundred of pieces a day was a lot. It seemed so, as I
was doing it!
Thank you for opening my eyes and mind to the incredible amounts
of castings done by some companies. I would really like to learn
more, I really would. I know it must be fascinating to many
members of the list. This email to me was very educational.
Thanks.
Don Norris @Donald_Norris
PO Box 2433 Estes Park, CO 80517
I stopped using a debubblizing solution years ago also. I
stopped when I switched to R&R Ultravest, the say they have a
’wetting agent’ in the investment that make a debubblizer
unnecessary. I have very little trouble with bubbles, I am not
sure just which variable that is due to, I am just grateful. I
really prefer the R&R over Kerr Satin Cast, I get much better
results.
Do you mean to say that your flasks ruptured during the casting
process?? Just what did you do with the solution? If used
according to directions, it should not effect the investment in
any way. I’ve never had the problem you describe eather.
Don: How is your list different from Orchid? I appreciate the
invitation but I have trouble finding enough time to go through
my Orchid posts, let alone more and hesitate to sighn on to
another. Thanks for the roses. Sometimes I just get fed up with
the endless threads and wish I were a moderator and could shut
them off. In the case of the casting thread, it has been
done…to death! I took a class long, long ago where the
instructor sought to de-mystify the process and cast a very
detailed ring using nothing but an overturned pot on a gas hot
plate and a simple broken-arm machine. Came out just fine thank
you very much!
