g’day; ever heard of a moebius strip? take a strip of some
sheet material - even newspaper will do. give the strip a single
twist and glue the ends together. place a bold mark on one face of
the strip. put a finger on the mark and trace it round the circle.
your finger will have to go round twice to arrive at the mark, yet
you still have the twist and your finger hasn’t crossed an edge. not
magic, just the science of topology [maths.] surely this is a good
example of ‘the eternal circle’? but we haven’t finished yet. take
a pair of scissors and cut along the centre of the circle strip to
get two circles - interlinked but without a twist. kids will be
kept quiet for ages and make a nice clean mess. and the kitten can
have a lovely time, but how’s that for an eternal circle? you
could even make an eternal triangle. it ought to be possible to fold
and bend that first strip to make a hollow vessel which has only one
surface - a 4 dimensional bottle, called a klein bottle. but you
can’t do it because you need another dimension and we haven’t figured
that out yet. yet i once made one out of pyrex glass; a hollow
vessel with a single surface, but it was cheating a bit. of course
starting with a strip is also a cheat. you’d have to carve the
single surface from a block of wax and cast it in gold or something.
then it wouldn’t have the cheating joined ends. it is called blinding
jewellers with science to complete confusion. try it - you’ll like
it.
Cheers for now,
John Burgess; @John_Burgess2 of Mapua, Nelson NZ
For me as an agnostic and as an atheist there is no “hope” -
neither do I “believe” in anything. I either know, understand or am
willing to accept as a useful working hypothesis.
It’s not as much fun as believing and hoping - but goodness - it
gets the laundry done on time!
After reading a number of responses to this one, I guess it is time
for my 2 cents. This is actually something that has troubled me for
a long time, though I hadn’t really thought about trying to include
non-believers (of anything). But, they are members of the human
race, too, so should be included. I am a Christian by birth, belong
to a Baptist church by choice. Don’t think for a minute, though, that
I buy into everything that is said in my faith. My personal faith is
that there is a God. Right now, I think he is very angry with me,
but that is a whole other story, not for this forum. At any rate, I
do believe in him, I believe in Jesus Christ. But I do NOT believe
that our faith gives us the right to assume that everyone else in
the world is wrong. I agree that all faiths supposedly teach us a
peaceful path, and I’m sure most agnostics and atheists would
likewise follow peaceful paths. Every major religion that I know
anything of preaches peace, honesty, integrity, charity, love and
many other positive ideals. Why then do we manage to screw things up
by running around claiming territory that is not ours, killing people
and generally creating chaos in the name of those religions. If each
of the faiths, and those with none, would put their energies toward
soing for the needy and really solving the issues at hand, perhaps
we wouldn’t have tyrants running countries for their own benefit
while their people starve. Perhaps we wouldn’t need to be blowing up
ancient landmarks and making orphans by the hundreds. No, I am not
hammering at the US in Iraq. I am hammering at all of the places in
the world through history. If we would REALLY practice what is in
the Bible, Koran, or whatever book applies to a particular faith, I
doubt there would be constant war and strife. As for a symbol, I am
not really good at that. If I were, I could think of a symbol for a
person very dear to me that we could each wear to remember each other
by until we meet again. Heck, I can’t even figure out a lot of the
established symbols, never mind think up a new one. Keep up the
good ideas, guys, I think we’ll come up with something yet. Jim in the
mountains of NC, where winter has arrived and the wife and kids are
happy to be back on the slopes. I’m not. Scares me to death to
slide down a hill. Oh well.
In the history of civilization more people have been persecuted and
destroyed by various religious factions than by barbarians or
pagans. IMHO we should get off this. We are a affinity group. What
we share is our interest in metal stones, etc. We don’t need to
know or share our personal beliefs. When we go off on these other
things we get into areas not pertinant to our common interest and
the results could be disruptive and divisive. K Kelly
How about a drop of water (tear shaped) inside of a circle (Earth).
Without these two natural wonders, we would not be having this
discussion! Margery F. Cooper
I was thinking of a winged chalice with maybe a DNA spiral stem. The
cup that all can drink from, those of faith of no faith. The spiral
chain that connects all life on this planet. Wings to remind us all
to rise toward the potential that the human mind is capable of. I was
also thinking this universal “faith” symbol was sounding a little
exclusionary toward those that have seen no tenable evidence for any
of the gods/goddesses. I have faith in humanity, not in unseen
beings. Here are a couple examples of symbols and l sites
that may help those that cannot understand how anyone could consider
all the gods and goddesses a myth. American Atheists Symbol http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/logo.html Happy Humanist
Symbol http://www.iheu.org/identitystatement1.htm
I really do not like the idea of a butterfly. I am terrified of
them, as for moths and spiders, and i know a lot of people who do not
like insects… maybe we should stick to non-objective signs, this
way chances are small that we may offend or annoy some people…
Hi, Dawn, This is pretty far off the jewelry track, but the question
was asked, and it may help clarify thinking on the faith symbol, if
only by provoking disagreement!
I don’t claim to be able to “enlighten” you, but I think there is a
distinction to be made between “faith” and “belief”. This is
semantics, but, to me, that is not pejorative. Faith, to me, is a
willingness to put trust in something not fully understood or
provable, in particular, that there is a tendency toward the good in
the universe. This is a big part of my personal definition of the
Divine which exists in everything. Perhaps this makes me a
pantheist. If, on the other hand, you define faith as belief in a
codified set of dogma, then I would qualify as an atheist, formerly
an agnostic. Religion never brought me to the spiritual; nature
does. Over time, I have come to peace with the concept of faith,
independent from dogma or religion. I actually do pray, though not
to a disembodied father-figure, and mostly prayers of gratitude.
This is a practice I highly recommend. It can never hurt to be
consciously aware of what one has to be grateful for, even if that’s
as far as it goes. Incidentally, I think that the only things that
are safe to pray for are wisdom and guidance, but that’s another
discussion. The point is, atheists believe in many things, but may
not have faith in anything, at least as faith is defined above. But
I find that a bit of faith takes a lot of worry and responsibility
off my shoulders, without removing the obligation to behave in a
fully moral way. I hope this is of help or at least of interest!
Namaste,
Love John’s idea of the moebius strip! What a wonderful way to show
we are all interconnected - especially if you could do several
intertwined, in various metals/colors - the variety of humanity!
But Tony, you do believe in yourself. And you don’t know me, but
you believe in me too. You see, you’re falling into that divisive
religion thing; that we all have to be labeled. My idea for a
universal symbol (maybe I shouldn’t have used the word “faith”) is
to finally get rid of that. My intention was for unification of
mankind in a spiritual sense, rather than division.
Sometimes I wake up with a fantastic idea in my head. I have to jot
it down before it’s gone. But I always wonder where it came from.
Did it come from deep within my brain, or from some other source?
The point is, no one knows the answer.
As an atheist, you believe your inspiration comes from within
yourself. I’m not sure where my inspiration comes from. It’s always
been my theory to read everything you can get your hands on, but
don’t ever let anyone tell you what to think. Keep your mind open
to any possibilities or theories, but never be sure of anything.
It’s those who already know all the answers who wont be interested
in this concept.
Others in this forum are much more eloquent than I. The wordsmiths
among us are impressive. I’m so pleased with the wonderful ideas.
Let’s keep at it until we come up with something.
And Tony, I know you believe in John Burgess. Everyone believes in
him. BTW, his design is fantastic.
Awesome response Noel, Thank you! I actually have a "Namaste"
sticker on the back of my van (yep, I’m a soccer Mom as well as a
jeweler). I love the definition of the word which I’ve been told
means: “The Divine in me sees the Divine in you and recognizes that
we are one and the same”. Panetheist, schmatheist, I think you’re
right and that semantics can get in the way of understanding each
other. Peace. -Dawn
The butterfly is a nice symbol and a good artistic representation in
any number of forms could be made from it. However, it seems that
recently Microsoft has usurped the image of the butterfly and an
image of a large, butterfly censor wearing glasses just doesn’t
appeal to me.
I do like the idea of the circle with something inside of it,
perhaps a flower. How about two interwoven circles with a lotus, or
maybe an orchid (or an abstraction of an orchid) inside?
A universal interfaith symbol, by definition will not include
atheists. They have no faith in a higher being at all.
According to Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary, atheism is defined
as: a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that
there is no deity.
Agnostics are a different sort altogether…
Interfaith symbols I have seen are a combination of each of the
represented faiths symbols. Good luck including atheists in a
universal symbol of any kind of faith, other than in people…
Tony, It is so refreshing to find like-minded people who recognize
that “goodness” and “humanism” doesn’t come from organized
religion, it comes from within. However, I have learned to tolerate
the fact that some people need to be led and are better people for
it. Something around the DNA stuff or infinity symbol works for me.
Eve Welts Waltham, MA
gee whiz…I was surprised to find this thread making me crabby! How
about a “happy face”? We each interpret ALL this stuff in our own
way. Let’s let it go at that. You want a better world? Be a better
person…in whatever way it takes you to get there. Pave the way
for others to have the opportunity to behave well. We can each make
individual expressions of our own feelings about our connections
with ourselves, others, the world and/or spirituality if we are so
moved. If they are heartfelt they will be recognized…if they
aren’t heartfelt then why bother? Personally I have found, to bitter
disappointment as a young person in the 60’s , that all symbols will
be preempted and perverted by larger powers invested in the status
quo in order to make them ( new symbols/ideas) impotent. the peace
sign, the peace symbol, love beads, flower power etc etc were all
used for crass and commercial gains and worse. People do horrible
things draped in symbols that they believe hide or absolve them from
what they do. There may exist somewhere a symbol of faith or
allegiance that hasn’t been used by some as a cover for inhuman
acts, but they are pretty lonely if they’re out there. If we see
ourselves and each other as individuals then we are less likely to
reduce each other to stereotypes that we can easily dismiss or
destroy. Sometimes the good things, the beautiful things, the
delicate things, the most significant “ah-ha’s” breath freer if they
aren’t codified into a box. I don’t want to start a whole new debate
here…this was once put very simply… “let it be” …whatever you think
"it" is. Marianne
A universal interfaith symbol, by definition will not include
atheists. They have no faith in a higher being at all.
Well, who is to say that they do not have faith in the power of
nature, faith in the goodness of their fellow man, faith in the
reliability of the seasons, etc? Faith needs not be exclusive of
everything other than one or more deities, one can have faith in the
concept of karma, and that is still faith isn’t it?
Hi All; I swore I wouldn’t get into this, so I’m going to try to
divert it to a sort of sideline. I won’t go into the issue of faith
because I’m perfectly happy in my little mental universe and I won’t
invite any new ideas in to rock the boat sorry, that just popped
out. But if I did offer a universal symbol, I can only think of one
that should be ever in our mind’s eye. Considering mankinds
propensity for delivering misery to his fellows, perhaps it might
remind us of what’s really important. How about. . . .
A Child.
If that image can’t straighten us out, then we’re in for plenty more
hellfire of our own making long before we get to eternity. (Sorry,
maybe I read too much Charles Dickens as a kid.)
Meanwhile, I’ve got another idea . . . you mostly being jewelers can
relate to this. You know, of course, about the 4 C’s of diamond
grading? Color, cut, clarity and carat (weight). I’ve got my own
version . . .
The Four C’s of Life!
Courage
Creativity
Compassion
Commitment
(and I kind of prefer that order)
There they are, IMHO, the most critical baggage for your spiritual
journey, wherever it may lead. May all of you, this holiday season,
find within yourselves these elements of character which I believe
are necesary to make life worth living. And may you exercise them to
their fullest, thereby becoming the best person you can ever be and
thus make everyone around you mighty glad they knew you before you
finally and forever stopped flapping your gums. I’m already happier
just thinking about all the great people I’ve met here on Orchid and
imagining that great, exquisitely beautiful tapestry which is the
human race, of who’s great pattern we here are but a mere fragment. A
pattern spanning time and space, borderless, deathless and sublime.
Make peace with the universe today, for there are tomorrows enough
for strife. Thanks, I’m going back now to contemplate my navel.
David L. Huffman . . . By the way, did it ever occur to you that
somewhere on Earth the sun is always setting, and likewise, somewhere
it’s always sunrise? Pretty wild . . . I mean . . . who managed that?!!
sorry, that just popped