Artists attend art schools to develop methods and skills,
professional practices, etc. etc., not talent.
Interesting to quote a scientist/inventor, not an artist.
Michelle
This sounds like the arguments over nature vs nurture when talking
about development during our growth. I’m of the opinion that it is
both, some hardwired into our genes and some learned as we grow up. I
believe that everything else is the same way.
Once I had a job as a mechanical draftsman. I’d never had any
training in it, but I passed their test and was able to do the work
competently. It remains one of the jobs I liked most. While I had
this job I thought that perhaps I should get some training, so I
signed up for some drafting classes at a local community college. In
the class I met a woman who was having difficulty and I agreed to
help tutor her. This lady truly tried, and I attempted every way I
could think of to help her translate a 3D object into an orthographic
representation on paper. I got so simple as to use a child’s block
with different letters on each of the 6 faces. She could not do it.
Her mind was absolutely incapable of making the translation, even
after having just watched me draw it. Just as some people are
dyslexic, this was a limitation of hers that appeared to be hardwired
into her brain.
In this same way, although perhaps not to the same degree, I believe
that it’s possible for some people to be unable to perform some
crafts, and conversely, to have increased skill as well. In between
these two positions I think exist the majority of people who, with
diligent effort, can learn a craft and possibly excel at it.
Mike DeBurgh
Noel, with your permission I’d like to adopt your phrase
’retrospective inevitability’. It has a nice ring to it.
kpk
I never did anything worth doing by accident, nor did any of my inventions come by accident. They came by work
Interesting thread, even if it doesn’t mean a whole lot in the end.
People are what they are and have the tools they have, at the end of
the day.
It’s the premise that talent is a myth that does it, I guess. Using
my term paper example again - somebody talked about the need to have
the background to do anything, and it’s just the right background
that does it.
True, but when I was learning grammar I just said, “Well of course
that how it all works” snap, lightbulb, we’re done let’s move on. In
later years I finally realized that the reason I was always in the
same classes with the A-list girls and the student body presidents
was not an accident - they were all honors level classes…
Genius is different from talent, but a good definition or
description of genius that I heard was that a person takes the same
set of facts and puts them together intuitively in different and
greater ways- they see a bigger picture… Einstein had the same
facts as everybody else but it was he who put them together into The
Theory of Relativilty. It’s a bowl of spaghetti - most people are IN
the spaghetti, traveling along the strands, point A to point B. It’s
talent, and genius, that rises above that and sees the bowl full of
pasta. True, it ultimately doesn’t mean a whole lot until you do
something useful with it… I think that the real problem of the
title of this topic is that it’s PC in recent times to pretend that
everybody is the same, there are no greater skills or talents,
anybody can do it if they try hard enough, etc. and etc. Which is of
course nonsense…
The question of talent, genius, artist is fascinating and
unanswerable. And I totally agree with Edison.
I believe a good teacher can do wonders. I also believe that most
anyone can be taught to achieve a certain level of competence. One
thing is crucial: ‘hand eye coordination’ which may be impossible to
teach.
Another faculty that may be impossible to teach is to have 'an eye’
for it. I believe that is what distinguishes one who makes jewelry
from one who designs and makes jewelry.
kpk
This reminds me of a discussion my child’s middle school band
teacher had with the band parents when the kids were first being
selected for band and choosing their instruments. A lot of kids had
been given music lessons prior to this event, and parents and kids
were all yammering away at the band teacher about how talented this
kid or that kid was.
The band teacher held up his hand and said, " All the talent in the
world don’t mean diddly if you ain’t gonna practice".
'Nuff said.
Peggy Wilson
I really believe that the talented or gifted person will end up at a different place than others, a place that could not have been reached or anticipated by other minds.
I wonder if arriving at this different place is sometimes achieved
by the willingness to take risks… to go for the unpredictable?
Could it be unrestrained, carefree play? Hard work pays the entry fee
and talent may be knowing what to continue pursuing, what to discard
and how to do it all over again.
J Collier
Metalsmith
How about a take home lesson for all of us:
Surround yourself with talented people who will mentor and work with
you and expose you to new ideas and ways of seeing things. The most
talented wax person I know is a 93 year old dentist who was still
teaching and his mind and hands were totally intact. He was a master
teacher. After watching him and filming him I was in awe of his
ability. Natural or not, it does not matter: he taught it so you
could emulate him and develop the needed skills to do the job (much
practice time required).
Be part of a team: it is hard to be a jack of all trades and do
everything well. When your team does a great job you can share the
credit if you are generous. When we lived in NYC we had many friends
in the Jewelry business. When really expensive pieces were made,
there were so many hands in on the project from the designer to the
gem salesman who could find the unique stone to the caster and
finisher, setter, engraver and last of all the banker.
In my world of dentistry I act as the general contractor who has
detailed knowledge of everything but not necessarily the ultimate
skills in each field. By working with talented people in my office,
fellow specialists and the laboratory technician, we can end up with
a WOW! I never take all the credit, except for the decision to work
with really good people.
I guess this is a description of a life passion, not a job.
Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea
Hi Jim,
As I’ve mentioned before, I see the world less in blacks and whites
these days: I’m less inclined towards putting faith in absolutes. The
quote that you passed along seemed to me to be stating a belief in
absolute terms.
Quite simply, I believe that it takes talent, skill and drive to
produce an inspired object.
I believe that there are some who have talent (the affinity for a
process, material or medium), perhaps a great deal of it, but who
never receive the technical education, shun it or don’t put the time
in to become proficient enough to manifest and maximize their
potential. No matter how eloquent their design concepts or ideas are
we can’t see past the scrawl of muddy craft or shoddy workmanship.
The piece/object may never communicate the genius that may lie at its
core.(This is especially true, of course, in media that come with
technical baggage such as jewelry and metalsmithing.)
There are others who work very hard and do, indeed, become
proficient-- even masterful at what they do. The skill (the acquired
and developed body of technical and practical knowledge) that they
have allows them to produce objects that may be technically flawless.
But to some eyes the work is not inspired. There is not the intuitive
core or edge to the piece that a talented eye can give.
Good work is often the product of practice and obsession. Skill.
Inspired, but technically mediocre, work is often the result of
innate ability. Talent.
But it is the perfect storm, I think, of talent, skill and drive
that yields exceptional work.
Just my opinion.
Andy
Well if it is talent that makes an artist (insert field here) then all the folks that attend art (insert field here) schools are wasting their money. Because from this point of view you can't teach it to them if they dont have the natural ability (talent). Yes there are knuckleheads that will not learn but if the student has the desire and the drive and the teacher has the skill then I believe anything is possible.
If this is true then it should be easy to teach a tone-deaf person
to sing, or a blind person to paint.
If someone is lacking the basic ability, no amount of training or
practice will elevate them to excellence. An example that comes to
mind is the difference between Karen Carpenter and Tallulah Bankhead
both were entertainers - both sang. Carpenter had excelent pitch
control - Bankhead couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket (this did not
prevent her from attempting to sing on her shows).
Al Jolsen did not have a very good voice but he was a good singer.
When I hear “practice makes perfect” I think of Jack Benny and the
violin.
When I hear "practice makes perfect" I think of Jack Benny and the violin.
You can certainly practice to be bad as well as to be good.
Interesting to quote a scientist/inventor, not an artist.
You think that science and invention aren’t art?
James Binnion
As an adjunct to this discussion, I offer Frank R. Wilson’s book “The
Hand”. It has been mentioned in the past by a variety of people in
different Orchid posts. Worth the read, not a reviewer just an avid
reader.
Hi all,
I am beginning to find this topic (strangely enough) quite
interesting- for one reason that I really never thought about ‘being
gifted or talented’ with regard to goldsmithing…
But now I think about it…: I started my career as a violinist,…
now I play the viola more often, which I really love. And I still
participate in some classical music projects professionaly… But
somehow I started with goldsmithing last year… and it really
really fascinates me! And I realize that music is very important to
me but not that much anymore…
Anyway… All I wanted to say are the words of the great violin
teacher Jo Juda who once said:" talent is de 1, but hard labour,
dedication and stamina, are the zeroes behind it. And you can
influence the latter… My translation is a bit awkward but what he
is trying to say is: maybe one is loaded with talent- without the
focus, hard work, stamina and dedication, talent means not much…
Ofcourse he is talking about violin playing ; ))
All the best,
Stephen
I think that the real problem of the title of this topic is that it's PC in recent times to pretend that everybody is the same, there are no greater skills or talents, anybody can do it if they try hard enough, etc. and etc. Which is of course nonsense...
Neither the quote I submitted nor do I think anyone in the topic has
said everyone is the same. In fact it is the desire/obsession to
excel and the work necessary to do so that sets those who succeed
apart from those that don’t. Those that have an “eye” for design may
come by it naturally or gain it by hard work but those who succeed in
creative endeavors do it by working at it. Now some may call it play
but it is like the old saw about “How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
Practice, practice, practice” Hardly “PC”
Regards,
Jim
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
As I've mentioned before, I see the world less in blacks and whites these days: I'm less inclined towards putting faith in absolutes. The quote that you passed along seemed to me to be stating a belief in absolute terms.
I don’t see it that way but if that is how you interpreted it well
we each see the world through or own filters.
I believe that there are some who have talent (the affinity for a process, material or medium), perhaps a great deal of it, but who never receive the technical education, shun it or don't put the time in to become proficient enough to manifest and maximize their potential. No matter how eloquent their design concepts or ideas are we can't see past the scrawl of muddy craft or shoddy workmanship. The piece/object may never communicate the genius that may lie at its core.(This is especially true, of course, in media that come with technical baggage such as jewelry and metalsmithing.)
For the most part I agree with you here. Raw affinity or talent not
exercised is just potential and nothing more. My great Aunt an
excellent musician and music teacher for her whole life was
absolutely convinced that I had the talent to be a good musician. I
think she may have been right but I never had the desire or drive to
master it so I am at best a mediocre musician.
One reason I posted the quote is my reaction to people who I meet in
classes or elsewhere who blame their lack of “talent” for their
inability to succeed in their work.
There are others who work very hard and do, indeed, become proficient-- even masterful at what they do. The skill (the acquired and developed body of technical and practical knowledge) that they have allows them to produce objects that may be technically flawless. But to some eyes the work is not inspired. There is not the intuitive core or edge to the piece that a talented eye can give.
This lack of edge or intuitive core is a totally subjective
judgement based on the observers biases. It is amazing how someone’s
creative endeavors can be dismissed for years as being nothing
special then all of a sudden someone of the appropriate stature in
the Art world “discovers” how great it is then everyone can proclaim
how great it is. What changed, certainly not the original work.
Good work is often the product of practice and obsession. Skill.
Inspired, but technically mediocre, work is often the result of innate ability. Talent.
But it is the perfect storm, I think, of talent, skill and drive that yields exceptional work.
I dont disagree, my point was that talent is only a small part of
the equation.
Regards,
Jim
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
One final thought on Practice Practice Practice:
Growth and maturation of skill and judgment depends on a desire for
excellence and a dedication to learning.
It is the difference between someone with 20 years of experience
versus someone with one year of experience repeated 20 times!
Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea
One reason I posted the quote is my reaction to people who I meet in classes or elsewhere who blame their lack of "talent" for their inability to succeed in their work.
I think we are confusing the word “talent” with “aptitude”. Lack of
aptitude can be overcome by training, but lack of talent is something
else.
Take chess as an example. Chess is the game which defies complete
calculation. It simply does not matter how many years one spends on
practicing. To play on the level of international master one needs a
talent. One needs to recognize right strategy without trying to
compute everything. Very few have this ability.
The same applies to Art, Music, and everything else. Talent is the
rarest commodity in the Universe. It is a true gift from God. What I
suspect we have been talking about is an aptitude, but not a talent.
Leonid Surpin
I looked talent up and the definition was “natural aptitude or
skill”. I had a student several years ago who was a retired school
teacher and she had taught art for many years and then switched to
teaching english. She can paint the most beautiful flowers but she
COULD NOT make a decent bezel. I tried everything I could think of
to help her. I would stand and watch her to try and figure out what
she was doing wrong, but when she finished, it would look like she
had jumped up and down on it. None of my other students have had this
trouble. They may not do perfectly in the beginning but when I show
them what they are doing wrong, they get it and go on to constantly
improving their work. I encourage them to speak with their own voice
and not to copy unless it is to learn a new technique. In the
beginning they will copy “teacher”, but they soon will start to do
their own thing and sometimes I am just floored with what they come
up with. So I for one do not think it is a myth. You either have some
aptitude for doing this kind of work or you don’t. I think just
having the desire to try it bespeaks of having some latent talent
for it. Of course you have to warm the seat and keep working or you
will not improve. I have noticed if they are not in class for a while
that they will slide back a little, so it takes both talent and
practice, practice, practice to make a good metalsmith/jeweler.
Just my opinion…
Lona
Anyway.... All I wanted to say are the words of the great violin teacher Jo Juda who once said:" talent is de 1, but hard labour, dedication and stamina, are the zeroes behind it. And you can influence the latter..
This subject is morphed into something else. I do not believe that
anybody is arguing the practice is unnecessary. In goldsmithing
nothing can be accomplished without practice. But talent is what
makes practice worthwhile. Without talent, it will be pretty
miserable existence - struggling with the most basic stuff,
constantly re-doing things, breaking stones, and etc… I am sure
everybody knows a jeweler or two who fits the description.
Leonid Surpin