"The look" of precious metal clay

Really, this has gone on long enough, hasn’t it! The only thing that
matters is whether the media and/or processes used serve well enough
to create the work. That’s all there is. Whatever one uses to
manifest one’s designs is all that is of consequence.

Leonid, Charles, Jackie, Richard, Elaine, Deb, Noel, et al (and me);
we all use whatever we want to make our work. Who cares what what we
use or how we use it?

Yes, we do want our work to be of high quality and, I think, we
strive for that. That’s a different issue than procedural choices.

The question that needs to be asked is: Does the end produce satisfy
the designer? If it does, and, of course we all work towards that
purpose, then where’s the argument against specific tools, media, or
processes. It just doesn’t matter how you get there…it only
matters that you get there!

Please stop wasting your time arguing this point. It is pointless.

Linda Kaye-Moses

I was going to say the exact same thing! -hmmm! also regarding the
point about metal clay being - somehow more versatile than trad
methods- not at all true- or only true if one can’t figure out how
to do x with trad methods…it is more costly with metal clay - no
one can argue that point…metal clay and the real fine silver mill
product’s cost is vastly different…metal clay being higher
particularly if you don’t buy in quantities to get a discount !
Point is it isn’t for most jewelers, but it is for metal clay users
and MOST people working in metal clay’s work doesn’t stack up to
professional jewelers…ther are a few exceptions…the poster
posting the pictures 9 url links ) said it best…pics say it all…

One of the benefits of silver clay has always been the time versus
cost benefit. There are just certain steps that are shortened using
silver clay. Instead of carving wax and then creating sprues and
then going through the casting process, you actually do the carving
in metal clay, fire and polish.

Its cost compared to market silver, I believe, is mitigated by the
ability to create with very few expensive, specialized tools. I
purchased hundreds of dollars of expensive hammers and torches and
equipment when I thought I would take metalsmithing classes and add
that to metal clay, but when I realized that it wasn’t for me, I was
stuck with all these tools. Not so with Art Clay. I have, maybe,
$100 worth of tools. All this is worked into the cost. So the cost
of any piece is purely product, and not production.

Jackie

Give it in the hand of a master and he will probably make something
great with it. But the metal clay has been devised especially for
use by people who are not proficient enough in fabrication to
produce decent results. And working with the metal clay will not
teach them. 

So, does that mean that casting was created for people= not
proficient enough in fabrication to produce decent results? Metal
Claywas devised to put jewelry creation into the hands of those not
able to spend massive amounts of time and money on tools and
equipment, and years of training to create fine jewelry. The
presumption that only men who can hammer, solder and saw can create
jewelry is an antiquated notion. It is only recently, in the scheme
of things, that women have been allowed into the secret society of
jewelers, but they are every bit as accomplished and artistic. If
metal clay gives them the ability to create jewelry without the vast
expense of traditional jewelry equipment and tools, so much the
better. Proficiency is as individual accomplishment. There are
certainly fabricators and casters who are not proficient in their
craft.

Metal clay is not a step down from fabrication. It is on a par with
it, another means to an end, being jewelry making. Your attitude
reflects your inability to think beyond your own accomplishments, to
expand the possibilities. Working with metal clay teaches that the
longer you work in a medium, the better you get, and that
proficiency depends not on a saw or hammer, but in your own
creativity.

Jackie

In the beginning, when we start, there is no precision, not only
because we cannot attain it, but because we cannot even see it.
Precision is a result of fabrication, which comes after a lot of
practice. It is not something which there to start with. 

A very insightful comment. My hat off to monsieur Jacques Pinaud. I
suspect that the rest of his post is going to raise some hackles. May
I suggest that before jumping to your keyboard and start expressing
your indignation in order to sooth bruised ego, take a moment to
ponder on the value of honest criticism.

The most important component in goldsmith repertoire is not
soldering, or stone setting, or whatever. The most important
component is criticism. It is a rare mentor, who is brutally honest
with his students, but without such input, the only things that
develops is ego, without anything to back it up. That is why we must
treasure the input from monsieur Pinaud, and others who are willing
to endure attacks from “everything goes crowd”, just to reach few who
are willing to listen.

Goldsmithing have always been an exclusive club. And it is not
because of some ogre at the door not letting students in; no, it is
because students exclude themselves by refusing to listen to
criticism, and thereby stopping their own growth before developing
even a modicum of skills.

I am raising my glass of fine Bordeaux to monsieur Pinaud, because
truer words have not been spoken on this forum.

Leonid Surpin

I totally understand why some people feel PMC or any type of Metal
Clay it is not nice looking. I have seen a lot of work that does not
look very well crafted but I have also seen a lot of fabricated work
that is it NOT well crafted either. The important key here is to
really get to know the material and practice with it a lot. Nobody
makes great pieces (fabricated or not) at the beginning, it all takes
time and practice. I also fabricate my jewelry but since I found
Metal Clay I have been playing with it and creating lots of my work
with this innovative material.

You can see some of my silver metal clay work in this link:

I respect everybody’s opinions but I wish some of you will have a
better idea in how to really work with this material. If your
experiences were not good when you tried it it just means that you
did not work with the metal clay the right way. Metal clay is a
great technique but you do need to have experience to master it, this
is not a crafty hobby material.

Sincerely,
Lorena Angulo

Mr. Hart,

I love your work, especially the colorful pieces. Can you please
enlighten me as to what process you use to achieve the multi-colored
blue and gold pieces? You mention gold dublee; is that it? It reminds
me of keum boo, but has more color.

Thank you.

Having received a lovely note from one of the gentlemen who posted
in this thread explaining his position, I thought to perhaps again
use pictures instead of words. I have studied traditional
metalsmithing and was actually starting to get pretty good at it.
Then I developed osteoarthritis in my hands, specifically in the
basal thumb joint. Trying to use a jewelers saw and may other tools
of the trade became impossible for me. But I still had all those
designs in my head… And then I discovered PMC. It took me about 3
years of working with the medium to get to the point where I felt
that my work was where I wanted it to be. And I have shared what I
learned during those 3 years with others… this is one of my
tutorials… are you willing to take a look at what it takes to turn
out a good piece of jewelry with PMC?.. it isn’t as easy as many of
you seem to think…

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/14f

Deb Fitz

Metal Clay Vs Godzilla

I have been following this thread. I have to admit, I have been
trying to keep a low profile since my alcohol induced “I don’t need a
mentor” rant some time ago. Hopefully, most of you have forgotten
that. A Faux Pas is frequently more vividly remembered by the fool…
than the audience. I bought a packet of silver metal clay a few
months ago… been meaning to play with it, but can’t find the exact
"application" for it. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I
fabricate… I dream about fabricating and when I am not sleeping (or
trying to) I day dream about fabricating. I have done metal work
since I was a small child (a LONG time ago) but am an “amateur”…
(Lately it seems to occupy more of my awake and sleeping time).

I take some offense at the amateur bashing on Orchid, I know it is a
diverse group, and we all know that there is a vast difference
between the mindset of amateurs and those in the industry. But, the
range of expertise among those in the industry is a wide as the
range of expertise among amateurs.

What I am working on is design… I need to take that to a different
level. I am very much into color and a minimalist… and don’t need a
mentor… lol. I got the metal work down pat. I look at your websites
and damn that is good work… just not where I am trying to go. I am
just going where I am going. Actually, I am hurtling toward a
business… with retirement a few years away. Collecting really high
end rough as I can find it and working on a business plan… and a
niche. Guess it all has to work together.

This has become metal clay vs godzilla. Old argument I suspect. I
have no opinion on metal clay. I fabricate. I saw things. I don’t
like the Knew saw. I hit things with hammers… a wide range of
hammers because different hammers do different things. I have a
torch. I have an embarassing array of torches. Really, it is
embarassing. Little torches, Meco torches,… torches… all kind of
torches. I understand gasses… and metals… and heat… and stuff
like that. It excites me… to put a torch to metal. I have a torch
fetish :slight_smile:

And stuff like that. It is tactile for me. I don’t know what metal
clay artists or casters do… but it is tactile for me. Just floats
my boat. I beat things, I bend them… I heat them. You can’t do that
with clay.

The last link is to my own work... which I humbly believe will
stand side by side in quality, precision of construction and
artistic vision with the work of any artist who has posted in this
ridiculous rant.

After looking at your pieces, I support your assertion. Your work is
lush and rich. I’d choose this over a plain platinum band any day.

The question that needs to be asked is: Does the end produce
satisfy the designer? If it does, and, of course we all work
towards that purpose, then where's the argument against specific
tools, media, or processes. It just doesn't matter how you get
there...it only matters that you get there! 

Ah ah Linda, that’s the whole point of the discussion. No one say you
can not use metal clay to create a ring form like object.

All we, traditional traned goldsmiths, say is that you get different
resuls. yes, both are ring like objects

BUT

the ring shape object baked from metal clay is different in its
internal properties than the item fabricated from sheet and wire.

it is a proven FACT!

I am not sure why the metal clay community resent this idea so much.
please use metal clay, express your creativty, save time, save on
tools, whatever…reasons suit you, but hey… by the end of the
day its a different animal, please use a different cage for it…

et al (and me); we all use whatever we want to make our work. Who
cares what what we use or how we use it? 

I just pulled that quote (sorry, I forget the name, now) because
it’s reasonable…So, we have the black thinkers on that side, and
the white thinkers on that side. To a degree, I’m able to be grey
more than some, I guess.

One of the problems with the American jewelry industry is that
there’s no apprenticeship programs. That goes back to Jacques’
comment about not even knowing what precision IS. No, precision
isn’t everything and often it’s unimportant. I have a platinum ring
set with baguettes and princess cut diamonds - baguette, princess,
baguette, etc. Channel set with bars between. Every box must be
precise (to 100th mm, if possible), every bar must be just in the
right place and the same thickness. The lines of the stones are so
crisp that ANY variation will look like a broken old fence. That’s
precision. And then there’s, “But I don’t like that, I just want to
play…”

That’s where everybody needs to decide if they are a jeweler or a
wedge-shaped-pendant-with-bezel-set-stones-and-a-flair-that’s-just-so
maker. Being a jeweler, a real, bona fide jewelry who has earned
the name, takes a good ten years to even figure out which end is up.
By that I mean around 20,000 hours. When you graduated from school,
that meant you were an apprentice.

But then again, so what? If people like clay of any kind, they are
happy making silver rings with $5 stones in bezels or what have you,
then good for them. Thing is - think about butter as an analogy - I
can get wax that ranges from the texture of butter that’s been
frozen overnight to some that’s been left on the counter for 2
hours, and everything in between. To me, metal clay is inferior in
every way to those. That doesn’t make it bad, or evil, or anything
like that. For those with limited resources and maybe limited
skills, it might be just the ticket - I can see that.

Everybody needs to be able to understand everybody else’s place.
as much as said. Cartier isn’t going to adopt it any time soon. From
the perspective of a hobbyist working at their kitchen table, or
someone who’s beyond that but not really professional either, it’s
the cat’s meow, and good for them. We can all get along in this
world, that way. Or, as I put it on another thread lately, design
isn’t pedantic. Whatever floats yer boat.

All the links you posted show absolutely stunning jewelry. I am
awed by the skill and artistry of the pieces which IMHO it would be
hard to match them using fabrication. 

If you like what has been shown, it is one thing. But you should
really abstain from making judgements about fabrication.

If you really want to find out, how about this. Get together as many
clay artists as you want and put together some money. I’ll match it 2
to 1. Let the best of your group make whatever shape he/she wants and
I will repeat it via fabrication, and then I make whatever I want
and your group will try to match it. Each side would submit detailed
photos of the processes to be judged on success of failure.

Are you game ?

And one more thing. Make it worth my while. Besides for every $1000
I put up $2000. I will represent the fabricators, you can get anybody
you want to represent your side and as many artists as you deem
necessary.

Leonid Surpin

Brent, Love your comments. You manage to put things into proper
perspective

Alma

I was going to refrain from joining this conversation, because for
me, it really is a “who cares” topic. I don’t work in metal clay,
but if somebody else wants to, why should it matter to me? You work
with what you work with, you produce what you produce. If people
love the end result, great and if they want to buy it, better yet. To
each their own. But now, in a recent post, this argument has devolved
into name-calling and the public belittling of someone’s work, and I
don’t think that has any place on this forum. Critique is one thing,
but rudeness and intentionally hurtful and demeaning comments are
another. I know several talented people who will not join this forum
exactly because of this type of thing, and that’s a shame because we
all lose out on the potential knowledge and insight they might have
to share. Yes, I come to this board for knowledge and assistance,
and I’m very grateful for the many experts we have here and their
willingness to share what they know. But I also come here for
community and inspiration, and this type of conversation, filled
with ego-stroking and puffed-up chests, and now, personal attacks,
destroys that.

Maybe we should all check ourselves, and our egos, and then move on
to a topic that hasn’t been repeatedly beaten to bloody pulp.

Regards,
Beth Taylor

Leonid, I had some time this morning to put my saw blades into the
oven. I am pleased with the results.

Thank you for such good advice
Cheers, Sam Olin - HVJ inc

I wasn’t going to post again, really I’m not going to change
anyone’s mind and vice versa, but I thought I’d throw out a few more
examples just for the heck of it.

For those of you who fabricate (and love it) I want to show you how
you can incorporate metal clay into your work - I’m not telling you
to give up fabrication or that metal clay is better or worse, but if
you open up your minds to some specific uses in you work you might
see some real possibilities.

Ivy Woodrose Jewelry she does some wonderful fabrication work then
uses textured pieces of PMC with resin - this combination would also
be great used with enamels.

Some other works combining fabricating and some use of PMC
components by Mark and Kelly Payne. They use some textured pieces
with the fabricated body and background elements in PMC for their
Cloisonne’ work.

Please note: None of the artists above have a dog in this
fight/debate - I am posting examples of their work just to show
possibilities of using pmc in conjunction with fabrication and other
traditional techniques.

This is one of my pieces I did it many years ago, the glass is
incased (I wouldn’t really call it a bezel) in the pmc with a closed
back. This would be very difficult to do either via fabrication or
casting. I’m giving this piece as an example, not of outstanding
craftsmanship, but again as something that can be done with PMC and
that is combining (not just setting) glass with it.

Imgur

Forging was never one of my strong suites and I would have a very
difficult time making a lot of my swirls and twirls that I do - Yes,
they could be cast, but frankly I hate casting after my hell job in
a foundry for two years. I like making these shapes in metal clay and
they are easy and fun to do. Some of my deep textures and tooth
shapes would also be extremely time consuming if done in anything
other then metal clay. Any of these types of components can be easily
soldered on to fabricated pieces.

Hope the above examples ignites some thoughts on how it can be used
in conjunction with traditional techniques, it never hurts to have
options!

Sincerely,
Liz Hall

Charles,

Just curious, from what you've reads and gauging people's opinion,
what did you determine? 

Here’s hoping I don’t get folks wound up all over again.

The following observations are aesthetic judgments on my part. No
one has to care what my aesthetic values are. No one wins points if I
agree with them and no one should be offended if I don’t like what
they like. But you asked what I learned from the discussion, so here
goes.

One of the reasons I wasn’t liking the pmc jewelry I saw in the
jewelry magazines was that it’s coloration was often “off” from fine
or sterling silver. I learned that pmc silver jewelry didn’t have to
look like that. It could be polished to look like what it is, silver.

Another was the way the material curved in multiple dimensions
differently than sheet silver would do when hammered. It’s a subtle
thing at times, but at the subconscious level, it bothered me. The
discussion helped me to realize this was one of the things that felt
“off” about the material. The ability to do something different is a
plus - if that’s what is intended by the artist.

I already admired the ease with which the pmc could be textured. But
often times the layered pieces didn’t seem to fit together right.
(See point above, to which I think this is related.) I saw examples
where the layers fit together spot on, so the lack of a proper fit
isn’t a limitation of the material (such as something caused by the
shrinkage).

A goodly number of the pmc pieces I’ve seen in the magazines simply
didn’t look properly finished. Partly this is because the pmc pieces
often didn’t have clear, crisp lines defining their shape. I do
pottery also and a lot of the pmc work I had seen looked like badly
done hand-built pottery. It’s not a limitation of the material,
that’s a limitation of the artists whose work I had seen before I
asked my question.

In other words, it’s possible to make pieces that exhibit the
stylistic qualities I’m looking for in the jewelry I’m trying to
learn how to make.

I’ve done hand-built pottery applique decoration before and working
in pmc appears to have some similarities to that. It’s not something
I enjoy as much as the traditional metal working techniques. That’s a
“what makes David happier” judgment, which is 100% right for me and
totally worthless to anyone else.

I’ve learned that the wrong people are writing how-to articles about
using PMC - at least based on the relative quality of the work I’ve
seen on magazine covers versus the work people pointed me to. Those
of you who are really good at this, please get to work writing how-to
articles! The PMC community has a group that has put together a PMC
masters program that looks like it would help people master their
skills and turn out much higher quality work. If anyone actually
cares about that, I’ll dig up the url and post it.

I have a pre-existing strong interest in learning the ancient and
medieval jewelry making skills. Obviously, PMC does not fit in that
list.

I have a lot of skills to learn before I know exactly what and how I
want to make the items I hope to be designing and building.

I’ve added PMC to my list of things to learn how to do, but it’s
near the bottom of my personal list.

I wouldn’t give anyone any guff about putting PMC at the top of
their list of skills to learn.

If I hadn’t already invested in a burnout kiln, enameling kiln,
vacuum table, hammers, saws, chasing/repousse tools, etc., I might
put PMC at the top of my list simply because of the much smaller
start up cost.

I hope that was useful to someone - other than fueling another flame
war.

Let me preface this by saying that I fabricate from sheet and wire,
I form from metal clay, and I use CAD/CAM to produce waxes for
casting–I just “use the muse” and go wherever she takes me.

I can very much appreciate the skill set of some of you bench
jewelers–I know that you have spent countless hours perfecting them
and your body of work shows it. Kudos! But what bothers me about
this thread is the condescending tone that is used when talking
about those who work with metal clay–as if they are probably
creating with macaroni, glitter, and popsicle sticks at the kitchen
table as well. Those of you who are blessed with the skills to do
the very precise work–give yourselves a big pat on the back–you
deserve it for the time and commitment you made to learning your
craft. But don’t drag down those who create fabulous jewelry pieces
with another medium. I’ve seen very good and very bad work from both
camps–I’m picturing some really bad stone setting and laughably
poor soldering that I’ve seen on pieces for sale on the net and in
person. But somehow that is to be valued more just because of the
raw materials used? Please!

Whether we like it or not, in the end, isn’t it the market that
really determines value? If the end user likes it, they pay more–if
not, they won’t buy it at all. Is it really up to a bunch of
individuals to decide who’s work is more professional? I’ll bet the
painters from the “realism” camp had this same debate when viewing
the works of Matisse, or (gasp) Picasso. I can just hear it now,
“That isn’t art–look how blurry it is! The lines aren’t precise at
all! The public is being ripped off because that just shows no skill
at all! Any idiot can do that! I’ll bet they are creating paintings
with glitter at their kitchen table!” LOL

It’s great to have a good debate–let’s just not make it so personal
and condescending.

And one more thing. Make it worth my while. Besides for every
$1000 I put up $2000. I will represent the fabricators, you can get
anybody you want to represent your side and as many artists as you
deem necessary. 

That would be a contest to watch, it would be very interesting.

If this does go ahead, I’d like to see a full video breakdown, all
costs (including costs of equipment, and costs of materials).

It would be interesting to see the results.

I was thinking you’d need an impartial judge, but from the looks of
this thread, that would be impossible. The judge would have to be the
viewer.

Regards Charles A.