But if I am asked to just list the materials of a piece, I wouldn't
say "sterling silver casting grain," I would just say "sterling
silver." The same for metal clay.
I have really almost no opinion about metal clay, in some ways. I’ve
just (sorta) watched this thread go on. Maybe a bit of arbitration,
is why I’m writing. I personally have no use for it - meaning I
don’t desire to use it myself. I don’t like the shrinkage, for one
thing, but I won’t go on about it. “You don’t like it, don’t use it”
suits everybody just fine.
I think that the problem metal clay has in the world - gaining a
positive rep - is that it’s so easy to use. That’s good, but it also
puts it into the hands of amateurs. So a great deal of metal clay
work in the past has been what amounts to bread-dough sculptures, at
times. People may get rankled at that, but at the same time I think
everybody knows what I’m talking about, too. And that low level of
quality has put a lot of people off, I think. BUT - that’s not the
material, it’s the users of it. Helen Hill posted some links to work
that were eye-openers to me, a while back.
I think that as that level of work gets wider exposure, metal clay
will gain a lot more credibility. There will still be housewife
hobbyists using it, sure. It’s just new, give it some time…
When metal clay is fully sintered in a kiln, it becomes fine
silver.
Well, not in the truest sense of metallurgy…sintered metal clay, is
never going to become the same thing as fine silver because of the
crystalline structure of the real thing ( sheet, casting grain or a
mill product)…sintered metal clay is made of .999Ag but does not
“become” the same thing just melted together particles of .999 Ag
that have a similar hardness, colour and while technically is made of
fine silver a metal clay artist should indicate that their work is
made of silver clay- one is not buying the fine silver raw material
at all…but a piece of jewelry, or whatever the thing is made from
fine silver…semantics are in this case important…The Orchid
archives discuss this ad nauseum over the years…I point out a post
James Binnion made about 2 years or so ago on the reasons it is not
actually fine silver- even after sintering, but made of fine silver-
it is far more concise than the way I would try to explain
it…nontheless…metal clay art should be fully disclosed as being
made from metal clay…Oh and whether it is fired in a kiln on a stove
or by torch, hot pot or any other method the same holds true…it is
not and will never be the same thing as any form of mill product
made of fine silver metal…rer
I point out a post James Binnion made about 2 years or so ago on
the reasons it is not actually fine silver- even after sintering,
Look I know that there are a fair number of folks in the metal clay
community who think I am the devil incarnate in regards to my
opinions and postings about metal clay. But please don’t make it
worse. What I said is that metal clay products do not have the same
mechanical properties that bulk metals and alloys have. In particular
they are weaker (less tensile strength) and less dense than their
wrought or cast counterparts. But they most certainly are fine
silver, or bronze or copper or what have you.
Very, very well said. Every jeweler should be trying metal clay if
only to speak from a point of experience.
What is your definition of “jeweler”. I once heard that the
definition is someone who can read a price tag.
As a goldsmith, metal clay is not something that I can conceive of
spending any of my time and/or talent to “experience”.
When metal clay first came to the U.S., a group of skilled
metalsmiths were given samples of silver metal clay produced by the
Japanese company that first developed it.
The metalsmiths were to produce something with the clay and to
experiment. My understanding was that the company that provided the
samples was disappointed by the results.
My personal opinion is that the limitation of the material was
evident.
I would not work with Fimo clay either.
I made things with clay in Junior High. I enjoyed it. I remember how
it felt to work with. The feeling I get from working with metals
would not be there for me with metal clay.
If I wanted to bake something would be bread or a pie.
If I wanted to bake something would be bread or a pie.
I was pretty much with you up to this line.
I respect your knowledge and abilities, but I am disappointed in
this dismissive and closed-minded attitude. Metal clay is not your
cup of tea, OK-- neither are a million other media. But I would not
expect to hear you remark about marble sculpture, “If I wanted to
chip something, I’d bite into my fork”.
There is no more bad work made out of metal clay than there is in,
say, oil paint. Or gold, for that matter. For such a new (and
accessible) medium, there is quite a bit of good work. Let’s not
throw out the baby with the bathwater.
If I wanted to bake something would be bread or a pie.
Ditto!
I understand that if someone’s first exposure to metal work is metal
clay, it could be difficult to understand the difference, but it is
there and it is significant.
When I started in this trade, we did a lot of wedding bands. Simple
design, nothing fancy. But there was an interesting custom in
shopping for wedding bands, a quality test if you will. A client
would drop a band on the hard surface and see how high it will
bounce. That is how cast bands were separated from wrought ones.
To put matter on more academic background consider this:
Good design requires marriage of material and technique. In the
simple-speak it means that an observer should be able to tell, what
is the object is made from without touching it. Metal bends and
deforms in a specific way, very much different from clay, wood, wax,
and etc. These differences may be hard to describe, but are quite
obvious. The problem with metal clay is not only in internal
structure, but object lacks these “metal” telltale signs. It look
fake.
The argument that “art can be done in any material” is a sophistry
in this context, because true artist will never ignore properties of
a medium and always select the right one.
If someone from metal clay community wants to argue that casting can
be objected on the same basis, I would wholeheartedly agree with
them. While internal structure of casting is slightly better, the
process itself cannot duplicate the form resulting from fabrication
sequence.
I don’t work with Fimo either, but I saw a really good demonstration
on how to create a faux ivory with Fimo, and some of my customers
like the look of animal products, but only want imitation.
I have refrained from entering this discussion, as I certainly don’t
want to hurt the feelings of those who use and like metal clay.
However, after reading the suggestion that “every jeweler should be
trying it” I decided to respond. I have tried it, several times, and
from experience, know that it is an inferior product, and has many
limitations. For those whose work demands precision, the shrinkage
problem, and the porosity of the fired clay certainly is frustrating.
For those who have had years of training and who are professionals
(as opposed to those at the hobby level), it has absolutely nothing
to offer.
Why would they want to regress to the point where they spend time
fussing with this goop so that they could “speak from a point of
experience?”
Kate McKinnon, a noted (and published) metal clay artist, did a
well-attended workshop at my studio about a year ago. Kate has
strong feelings about the advantages of metal clay over many
traditional metalsmithing techniques. She is a vocal proponent of the
use of pure silver without alloys, and no fan of solder. She claims
that a piece of jewelry made from metal clay, PROPERLY FIRED,
assembled with no solder, is a “purer” piece of jewelry.
(Kate, I hope I am not putting words in your mouth! I certainly
don’t intend to.)
Personally, I think a strong color-match solder is a wonderful
invention, and I couldn’t do much of my work without it. I don’t feel
solder in any way “contaminates” the metal it is used to join, but
becomes a vital part of the creation. Fusing, being a much “purer”
technique than soldering, just isn’t practical in many applications
where precision joints and minimal cleanup are required.
So perhaps if solder puts you off, and pure metals are your thing,
maybe metal clay is your best alternative?
As an “old school” metalsmith, I just haven’t (as yet) developed an
interest in working with metal clay, but my mind is opening more and
more to its possibilities. There is some unbelievable work being made
in this medium!
Oh and whether it is fired in a kiln on a stove or by torch, hot
pot or any other method the same holds true..it is not and will
never be the same thing as any form of mill product made of fine
silver metal...
Actually, it does matter if it is fired in a kiln because you can’t
sinter it as completely by any other method. And I didn’t say it was
the same as a mill product made of fine silver, I just said it is
fine silver. The particles are not positioned the same as in sheet
metal, but neither is something made of casting grain. Yet we don’t
qualify that when listing the materials of a piece for a photograph.
I seriously am not trying to be contentious or defensive here. You
are all right, this has been discussed ad nauseum.
Alma - very well said. I would add : not only is it inferior ( to
fine silver or gold ) but overpriced compared to the metals they are
made from…I was however glad for those using the stuff when art clay
entered the market - I never liked that people that paid to take a
class or two or three “got certified” and could buy the stuff at a
lower price than other entusiasts and resell it to those that had
either not paid for a class or saw through that “process” and
developed skills on their own but were still forced to buy it at a
different price than those “teachers” or “guild members”…that entire
period of metal clay " genesis " smacked too much of a pyramid
marketing scheme to me- yet another reason I found it an inferior
medium after the initial product testing phase back in the late 80’s
( if I recall correctly about when first it was sent to me by
mitsubishi )…Paying an inflated price to a company seeking to
profit from their industrial waste seemed like something i didn’t
want to participate in,- that was before i even tried it. After going
through a couple of ounces of silver clay I was still not impressed,
The one redeeming quality of metal clay- and I’m specifically
speaking about gold clay- is that it makes it simple for two
completely inexperienced people to create their own unique wedding
/committment/ whatever you want to call it rings with or without
stones, and with me charging a premium for firing the things into
sturdy-ish bands that will probably last a lifetime ( I began doing
that soon after I first tested the stuff and still offer it as an
option when clients ask if it’s possible to make their own rings.
because it’s faster and offers total novices creative versatiltiy.
Now that I think about it,.I have never ( yet) had a single gold clay
ring come back. in fact, one couple came back wanting to remake their
rings with a more complex design regardless of the clay having
tripled in price since they first made them !..rer
There is no more bad work made out of metal clay than there is in,
say, oil paint. Or gold, for that matter. For such a new (and
accessible) medium, there is quite a bit of good work. Let's not
throw out the baby with the bathwater.
This baby, should not be even born. And your comparisons to other
media simply crumble under their own weight. I am afraid but context
of you comments betrays fundamental misunderstanding of the role of
medium in artistic expression.
Metal clay is an attempt to fake metalwork. It is a TV dinner
masquerading as gourmet banquet; it is a volkswagen with Rolls-Royce
grill in front; it is a cheap beer in champagne bottle. There are
probably some decent artists who fall prey to the Siren Song of
metal clay peddlers, and we should try to save them.
I don’t post here much I like reading all the wonderful info that
this group has to offer. But every now and again this ugly debate
raises it head and statements are made and I feel I have to add my 2
cents.
Personally I do not think “every jeweler should be trying it” why?,
because with most any medium it takes a good long while to get to
know the material and how to use it “successfully”. I wouldn’t expect
someone to grab sheet and solder and be able to create something
worth while with just a few tries. In less one is willing to really
give it a try and learn about it, they are going to have
unsatisfactory results and will never see the potential that metal
clay has.
For those who have had years of training and who are professionals
(as opposed to those at the hobby level), it has absolutely
nothing to offer.
I really have to disagree with this statement, I majored at MICA in
metal/jewelry, I worked in a foundry (both in the finishing room and
wax room) for 2 years, granted I took a long hiatus from creating
jewelry but I consider my self well rounded in techniques and am
beyond the hobby stage. Luckily for me I decided to buy this weird
new product when I saw it advertised many years ago and give it a
try. I wanted to add this ingredient to my fabricated work. My first
few years with it was very sketchy-my work with it was sub par, but I
saw the potential and have fallen in love with it, now it is mostly
what I work in. To each his own, please don’t make such broad
sweeping statements - every material has potential to ignite
someone’s creativity be it hobbyist or professional.
Why would they want to regress to the point where they spend time
fussing with this goop so that they could "speak from a point of
experience?"
I give every new product a chance.
The reason I was looking at metal clay, was to determine if I could
make a replica faster and cheaper, than my current method.
This was in the bad old days when I had to teach myself everything.
I had no professional training, self taught everything.
Up until this point I was either using waxes created from from
direct castings of historical artifacts, or taking measurements
making a plasticene model, taking an RTV, then taking a wax. Getting
the wax cast into bronze or silver, at a casting house
I bought myself 25 grams of silver PMC, applied it to one of my
moulds, and had to let it dry… which is never completely did, so
extracting the PMC form the mould never happened in one piece, so
there was always some level of repair, and grey sticky fingers (no
matter how much olive oil I used). I eventually had my piece of clay,
then I cooked it to make it solid.
For me this failed in both speed and expense, compared to my
previous method.
If you’re not spouting an opinion about metal clay, of course it
doesn’t matter whether you’ve tried it or not. But if you have strong
negative feelings about it, you should at least have tried it before
making comments. It’s all a point of view. I’ve been working with Art
Clay Silver for 10 years, and have recently taken metal smithing
classes. In my opinion, I can make a bezel ring with a garnet in half
the time. If you use a scientific instrument, it will not be as
strong as soldered, but ya know, if an elephant sits on them, they’ll
both break! I’ve worn my ACS rings for years and never had one break.
I’ve never cut wax, sprued or cast a piece of jewelry, but I’ve done
things with ACS that couldn’t be done any other way traditionally. If
it doesn’t have anything to offer any individual, that’s great! But
metal clay is here to stay, and those who use it will continue to
perfect their use of it.
With all due respect, Mr. Hart, perhaps you shouldn’t try metal
clay. It takes a certain amount of open-mindedness to keep working
with a new material until one is proficient with it. Undoubtedly,
you would quit after the first attempt and condemn the material as
useless since it would be so frustrating to you not to master it
immediately.
As I said before, I use my whole studio of tools on the days I work
with metal clay. You don’t sell a rough casting, do you? Working
with metal clay is much more than just “baking.” Saying things like
that just shows how ignorant you are of the material, and that’s
what Linda was trying to say: work with the material so you know
what it’s about before you judge it. When it comes out of my kiln,
it requires finishing, hammering, hardening, polishing…all the
same things I do with my cast pieces.
But I think it’s best if you don’t try it. I really don’t think it
would speak to you like it does to others.
Vive la difference, Leonid!!! While making DVD’s to teach jewelry
making will never be the same as one-to-one teaching, I nevertheless
support your willingness to pass on your skills while making money
doing so. It just different, isn’t it. Roshw someone how to do
something is not the same as helping them learn.
your comparisons to other media simply crumble under their own
weight. I am afraid but context of you comments betrays fundamental
misunderstanding of the role of medium in artistic expression.
I will put my artistic qualifications up against anyone’s. Not in
terms of degrees or certifications, but in terms of a lifetime of
commitment, pursuit of excellence, and even achievement.
Metal clay is an attempt to fake metalwork. It is a TV dinner
masquerading as gourmet banquet; it is a volkswagen with
Rolls-Royce grill in front; it is a cheap beer in champagne bottle.
There are probably some decent artists who fall prey to the Siren
Song of metal clay peddlers, and we should try to save them.
Your comments betray fundamental misunderstanding of the role of
medium in artistic expression. Metal clay is not fake anything, any
more than watercolor is fake oil paint. It is a different medium
with some overlap with other forms of metalwork. I know I won’t have
any impact on your attitude. I am reminded of T.S. Elliot’s
description of Henry James as having a mind so fine that no idea
could pass through it.