Seeding Orchid

Jewelry Discussion
21 
The tacit agreement between the master and the pupil is that the
latter is expected, to shut up, complete the latest task set them,
and do as they are told. When they have done well, then its praise.
Its when they step way out of line, that the harsh approach is
justified.

When I was an apprentice, I worked for a Nazi. (no, really. He hated
Jews and was a big fan of Hitler. Oh and I’m Jewish.) But I stayed
because I wanted to learn the trade. I stayed for 18 years and became
the manager of the store and the head jeweler.

And the Nazi and I became friends of a sort.

When I was learning to make bezels (from scratch) I’d finish a piece
and he’s rant and rave about lines and bad solder joints and make me
tear it down, melt it down and do it again. And again and again
until it was perfect.

I’ll admit to not reading every post and thread here on Orchid, and
one guy in particular kinda reminds me of my old master, but he’s
the best jeweler on here.

So you folks who hate him and get all upset about what he says and
how he says it, IF you want to be an actual jeweler and not just a
hobbyist, need to just suck it up and listen.

PS I too think computer aided jewelry making has its place but is
mostly crap. (And I refuse to debate this.)

PPS I’ve had some rather heated conversations with some of you
offlist (you know who you are) and some stuff that one guy posts
every month or so drives me right up the wall. But I just don’t read
it. And I really don’t appreciate some of the political stuff that
some of you post, and I’ve asked the moderators to moderate it out
and instead my rebuttals are moderated out, and that’s ok too. This
IMO ain’t the place for that, even though the owners of Orchid lean
the way my detractors do. But it’s their list so who am I to kvetch?
I run a political email list and can (and do) vent there instead.

Paf Dvorak

22

I would like to echo everybody’s thanks to Hanuman and Ton. Without
them there would be no Orchid. I would also like to chime in with
Judy (who I don’t think has anything to apologize for) by apologizing
to anyone and everyone who may have thought I was out of line in a
recent post. I’m sorry for my poor choice of words and my intolerance
of what I considered to be excessively harsh and undeserved criticism
directed towards our Orchid benefactors. Actually, I’m sorry for my
demeanor and choice of words, not for what I was trying to say. I
meant no offense, only a spirited defense of what I still consider to
be the cornerstone of this wonderful thing called Orchid.

Anyone that knows about orchids knows how much care and patience is
required in their cultivation. They also know that when a new bud
finally appears, it is a cause for celebration. This thread it seems
to me, represents a new bud on a strong and well established Orchid,
one that will eventually become a beautiful, long lasting and
fragrant flower.

The pursuit of excellence in any endeavour is forever that - a
pursuit. Once we begin to believe that we have reached it, our mojo
dies.

One of my mentors used to say “you’re either green and growin’ or
you’re ripe and rotten”, a far less eloquent west Texas take on the
same thing. No matter how that thought is expressed, it is probably
the one thing I love most about working the bench. Even though I have
been doing this for more decades than I like to think about, I learn
new stuff all the time from you all. Quite often, people that don’t
have the benefit of experience and aren’t harnessed to the “this is
the way it’s done” mentality yet, come up with incredibly innovative
solutions to common problems. That’s my favorite part of having an
apprentice. It’s also my favorite thing to see on Orchid.

So thank you to all of you that so freely give of your experience
and talents. Thanks too, to those who have the nerve to ask what they
may be afraid might be viewed as a dumb question. All of us started
as rank beginners at one time and had the same questions or something
very much like them. I’m still learning from the answers provided to
some of those basic questions. It has been quite enjoyable watching
some of the contributors on Orchid grow from rank beginners into
mentors themselves. I believe that one of the best ways to learn is
to teach, and I get to see that in practice all the time here.

Thank you, Orchid. You guys (and a strong cup of joe) make up my
favorite way to start the day and give me daily inspiration to
continue with my own personal pursuit of excellence.

Dave Phelps

23

To all that orchid was, is, and will be in the future, may all
jewelers and metal artists here on this forum post a " Hear Hear" to
Hanuman and Ton as a job well done. HEAR ! HEAR !!

24

Hi how true is this!

Before anyone can interpret the medium they have to master the
techniques, assuming they have some talent.

Near enough is never good enough. I specialise in cocktail rings.
Big rocks to impress. Bezel set.

When I started it took me 3 hours to make a simple ring with a bezel
set stone.

I got the time down to 1 hour. Asked my teacher how to improve
quality. I was told to go back to 3 hours and improve every step of
the process. Got back down to 1 and a half hours.

Made 500 rings in this learning process. Sold every one.

Now when I make a ring, usually a one off, every thing is perfect.

The better the quality the easier to sell, it stands out from the
crowd.

Also I sell at ‘wholesale’ prices direct to the customer. Having
sold jewellery wholesale to over 100 businesses in Australia I know
the mark up that is put on jewellery. Usually 300 to 400% on
wholesale manufacture.

9 kt gold at $150 a gram in the chain stores. So I do 18 kt for $150
a gram.

For sterling I charge 100% percent on materials and $40 an hour
labour.

Make friends in the commercial trade, NEVER!
Make friends with hand makers, ALWAYS!
Only problem is keeping up the stock!

Master the basics and keep within your skill set and your jewellery
will be awesome.

And also at appropriate times push yourself and be prepared to fail.

If at first you don’t succeed you are normal. If you try and try
again till you get it right then you have the makings of a jeweller.

Richard

25 
I can't help but wonder how much more useful & most importantly,
more frequently USED, it would be, if is was a true web based
forum.

Not for me. I read the articles I’m interested in every day without
fail, as they appear in my inbox, sorted by subject (or date, or
author, or assigned importance). Web-based forums only get my
attention sporadically. A web-based forum is probably more work and
expense, and doesn’t allow me the same freedom to filter, organize,
and archive items of interest. Maybe I’m just behind the times.

Al Balmer

26 
Thank you, Hanuman and Ton for creating a space which which all
interested in sharing what they do and what they learn are
welcome. 

To operate a place that is open to the world, and yet in the
English language represents a challenge to so many people and I was
trying to believe that was the source of some problems for some
people but there is a fine line between looking for the better
nature and deluding myself. Actions speak louder than words. Please
know that your efforts are appreciated in helping so many people
learn more about making better jewelry. The pursuit of excellence
in any endeavour is forever that - a pursuit. Once we begin to
believe that we have reached it, our mojo dies. Barbara,

What a great post. Your words about the pursuit is so right on. I am
forever hungry for learning and am never quite satisfied with what I
create although some of them are forever in my mind and I always
want to do just a little better so that keeps me going. Thank you
for your inspiring words and I would also like to say “thank you” to
Hanuman and Ton for their work in making this such a great
inspirational place to go to each morning. I have learned so much.
Thanks also to all the good people who contribute what they know.

Lona

27

Neither Ton nor Hanuman has ever come across even remotely as drill
sargent-ish.

On the contrary, they have worked quietly, and provided us ALL with
this amazing, fascinating place. Even when flood waters approached the
second floor of their office, they kept Orchid current, never angry or
demanding. Very Zen. And their efforts are appreciated.

I’ve made small monthly donations since I found Orchid in 2007, but
let it lapse after I got sick last year. The Doctors wanting money
asked loudly & threatened to withhold services, something Orchid has
never done…

But I was wondering; just how does one become a Master on Orchid? Is
it an appointed or elected position? Or are some tacitly tapped & told
"BE THE STICK!"

I have been spared the Master’s rod, because I’ve lacked the
confidence to ask ‘stupid questions’. But I have not been spared the
wrath. As Sandra, Barbara, Agnes & a few others may recall, a while
back a beader posted a particularly plucky inquiry as to how to how
one gets introductions to celebrity reps and the like, so that her
work might find a wider audience.

She cited examples of other artists’ big break, people who’d found
success after meeting “the right person” and having their work placed
in a trendy store. She asked for input, and posted a link to her
website, which contained her very basic designs, that, though neatly
executed, were pretty much straight from a “how to” book of beading
stitches. She asked for opinions, and said that the “established
artists of Orchid owed it to people getting started to pay it
forward” and make this connection for her (dammit!); she wanted
Orchidians to find the person responsible for extending invites to
galas, where perhaps Angelina Jolie would wear her beaded choker.
Having enjoyed beading since childhood, I took a look, and was
surprised by the bravado behind the beading.

So, like a fool, I took a stab, THOUGH NOT A STAB! I’ve seen enough
examples of sledgehammers coming down on poor saps asking questions
some may deem invitations for target practice. I simply told this
woman that while her work was" nicely done", her website (done in
100% Comic Balloon font, w/ red, white & blue text) & her work,
(primarily Clear AB beaded chokers & earring sets commonly seen at
craft fairs) “might need some tweaking before she puts it out for the
wider audience.” I suggested experimenting with other color palettes
& such, and did it all MEEKLY, without the parenthetically phrased
passages contained here, as they would be too harsh, with sincere
intentions of helping her make some positive changes. Well, she had
gotten a few other less gentle responses, but apparently decided mine
was the straw that broke the camels back, or that because I lacked the
thunder of others, maybe I was more on her level, so she set her her
sights on me and sent me a personal response, posted on Orchid, an
amusing portion of which, verbatim, follows here:

"Just to let you know, you have not followed my thread from the
BEGINNING! I was shouting out that many artists are not willing to
help “pay it forward” by lending advice on how THEY got THERE (i. e.,
the big break). I have subsequently found out that there is a HUGE
resentment element within the metalsmith community; I was admittingly
wrong to have subscribed to this forum as a beaded artist. I only
wanted to hope for a kind ear and some empathy toward my situation.

I NEVER asked for feedback on my website and I take exception to
your lending a sarcastic voice.

In reference to my website, your impression is the same impression
an unaffiliated prospect would thumb their noses at with a Magic
Marker note–don’t deny it. I have learned that this woman (Nuewerth)
has plenty of connections and that is why her “presentation” caught.
I have plenty of supremely presented creations which have given me
lots of local notice–I just am seeking national notice and who to
contact to get there.

Oh, and by the way, I have “given it my all” for over 30
years—dedicated.

Can you say THAT???
(COULDN’T HOLD MY VOICE ANY LONGER, EITHER)
CRYSTALLIZED GEMS
FINE QUALITY EVENING WEAR JEWELRY"

SO that was my first & last attempt at advising on Orchid. For the
record, I HAD followed the thread start to finish, and she HAD asked
for feedback on all, but I will NOT likely respond to broadly cast
requests for input in the future. But this does demonstrate that our
responses, no matter how carefully or powerfully written, do affect
others, some profoundly. We always attract more bees with honey. If
you’re trying to get something pollinated, thats a good thing to
remember. And, if by chance anyone knows ‘who to contact for national
notice’, could they kindly post the number or email addy?

THANKS & BLESSINGS TO TON & HANUMAN!!! Thank you from the bottom of
my heart for years of education & entertainment!

Sharon Thompson
Sanford, Florida

28

I am honoured to have found a place on the internet that is
populated by people who are so sharing of their knowledge gleaned
over their careers.

Although I don’t know who is the best jeweler on here, I rather
suspect it is someone we have heard rarely from because their
greatest characteristic is that of humility and knowing they can do
better, no matter how well it is being done today. I’m sad to lose
anyone from the group - because I think we can all learn from each
other and I’m inclusive in nature. I too had someone in my life as a
teacher of trigonometry when I was in high school. He had been a
concentration camp inmate and the experience had embittered him and
made him into someone who was a constant critic. He was still
tattooed on his arm. He ridiculed girls in his class and drove out
most of them until only two remained. And he still called us little
cutsy names because he could not take the time or trouble to learn
our own names. He knew trig backwards and forwards but now, at the
age of 70, I no longer believe he should ever have been a teacher of
young minds.

Somewhere there was an office that existed for him where the poison
that he endured would not contaminate others in their formative
years. I give him what he is due and no more. I can be a hard-hearted
Hannah at times.

Barbara on a winter sky day on the island, concerned about the robin
with the broken leg who got separated from his flock heading south.
If he will agree to come in from the cold, he can have a place here
for the winter.

Mother Nature can be beautiful - and hard.

29

The biggest thing that lets this forum down, and I can guarantee
turns alot of people away from it, is the format. If you need an
answer to a question quickly this is the last place I would post, a
couple of hours for your post to appear then a few more for a
response if you are lucky, which in business is frustratingly slow.
Switch to a proper web based forum and I can guarantee the place
will grow the email system is so dated and basically seems to be
more about keeping absolute control over everything that is said on
here. Ben

30 
Neither Ton nor Hanuman has ever come across even remotely as
drill sargent-ish.

Who ever actually said they came across as per a drill sergeant? I
never said that.

Re read my post.

I just happened to experience first hand the DS gentle persuasion
and seen much worse during my military service.

The toughest was not the dS, but our aviation engineering
instructor, who scared the living daylights out of us apprentices.

With hindsight for very good reasons. It was eventually my job to
ensure that my aircraft was good enough to get all the crew,
including me, out over the Atlantic for 2000 miles and safely back to
base.

No easy task, and a hell of a responsibility.

so the training was extra through.

Everything had to be 110% 100% 0f the time.

thats why im still here.

Anyway enough of my background, I remember well this lady you
mention, and her presumption that it was the introduction you needed,
to make it to the big time.

Regardless of your work. She never did get it? did she?.

Ive always found that my work HAS to speak for itself.

Perhaps its time i scanned in some photos and posted them her.

Ill see what I can do.

31

Hi Ben,

Switch to a proper web based forum and I can guarantee the place
will grow the email system is so dated and basically seems to be
more about keeping absolute control over everything that is said
on here. Ben

Don’t be so sure that going to a web-based free-for-all would be
such a good thing. I certainly don’t think so.

The slower pace gives time to think, and certainly helps tamp down
on some of the worst of the flaming. (Believe it or not) I know I’m
not the only one with a “sleep on it” pile for my messages.
Sometimes, they don’t seem quite so brilliant the next morning, and
remain unsent. The once-a-day format facilitates that.

Many of the regular posters read/respond on their own schedules, and
the email format allows for that. I check it when I get home from
the shop at night. No way would I fuss with it frequently during the
day, as would be required to stay ‘current’ on a live web format.

I honestly think we’d lose a lot of the serious folks. No time or
energy to keep up with a ‘hotter’ schedule. Most of the serious
folks are older than the ‘facebook’ generation. We don’t spend all
day online. We spend it making things, and would much rather do that
than tap away at our computers all day.

Regards,
Brian

32 
The biggest thing that lets this forum down, and I can guarantee
turns alot of people away from it, is the format. If you need an
answer to a question quickly this is the last place I would post,
a couple of hours for your post to appear then a few more for a
response if you are lucky, which in business is frustratingly
slow. 

Switch to a proper web based forum and I can guarantee the place
will grow the email system is so dated and basically seems to be
more about keeping absolute control over everything that is said
on here.

I have to strongly disagree with you.

Most of the old jewelers from whom you would seek advice here are,
well, old.

And in spite of young people’s beliefs to the contrary, WE invented
the internet! We were on it using the BBS and email while most of you
were still suckling at your mother’s breast.

But hey, just to show you that I’m not just another grouchy old
fart, here’s my cell phone number 852-8197-4729 (this is a Hong Kong
number so it might be expensive for you to call.) Call me when you’re
stuck and I’ll do my best to help you out!

Paf Dvorak

33 
I can't help but wonder how much more useful & most importantly,
more frequently USED, it would be, if is was a true web based
forum.

If it was web based I’d never bother.

My email program, Eudora 7 allows me extreme control of sorting and
filtering.

I’ve saved and can refer to every post ever posted to this list from
the time I joined it.

I don’t use any web based email programs either.

Paf Dvorak

34

Hi

IF you want to be an actual jeweler and not just a hobbyist, need
to just suck it up and listen.

very true. My teacher used to say “do it again properly.” not rude
just truthful. And I did no short cuts, no ‘its supposed to look like
that’ crap. When I started reticulating I said I really want to know
what you think, ‘Greenwich village shit! Set some gems into it. There
is more to silversmithing than melting metal.’

Decades later I still appreciate my teacher’s honesty.

Richard

35

I love Orchid just the way it is.

Sam Patania

36

Right now my main project is converting an old sewing machine table
into an extra bench for my shop. I need one as somebody actually
wanted me to teach them what I knew. =) When it is done I will post
it to the bench exchange.

Gerald Livings
Livingston Jewelers

37 
I can't help but wonder how much more useful & most importantly,
more frequently USED, it would be, if is was a true web based
forum.

I disagree. Web based forums are notoriously hard to moderate and
it’s a PITA to get rid of unwanted posts once they make their way
into the forum’s database.

Part of the glory of Orchid (and the most useful part for me) is the
searchable archives of old messages. If those messages were
unmoderated, or if they were filled with junk posts, lots of chatter
and useless “me too” posts, the archives would not be nearly so easy
to search. Just a guess, but I’m pretty sure that’s part of why
Hanuman and Ton filter everything that goes through this list–to aid
in making it searchable for archival purposes.

Kathy Johnson

38 
I honestly think we'd lose a lot of the serious folks. No time or
energy to keep up with a 'hotter' schedule. Most of the serious
folks are older than the 'facebook' generation. We don't spend all
day online. We spend it making things, and would much rather do
that than tap away at our computers all day.

In total agreement with Brian’s complete message! As with our
individual styles and manufacturing methods, we use what works for
us. It’s known as “choice” and I am very glad to have that option.
Phil.

39 
Right now my main project is converting an old sewing machine
table into an extra bench for my shop. I need one as somebody
actually wanted me to teach them what I knew. =) When it is done I
will post it to the bench exchange.

Will you power the flex shaft with that foot-operated thing?

Paf Dvorak

40 
Decades later I still appreciate my teacher's honesty.

… Which was an expression of his point of view…

Reticulation was developed in the workshops and studios of Faberge
and brought to this country by Heikki Seppa. They both knew how to
make extraordinary jewelry.

Andy Cooperman