Are there any concerns regarding the chemicals in Permatex when
applied to a stone as well as after curing? Is there anything in it
that would hasten tarnishing of sterling silver or affect the
stones - particularly an opal?
There is nothing in the Permatex that will affect any of the stones.
It isa form of epoxy that remains flexible upon curing and resists
high heat…well, up to 500F or so.
I see no reason that it would tarnish any metal, I never noticed a
problem with it, but can’t say I ever used it with silver. I would
imagine an inexpensive experiment would answer your question. Then
you will KNOW.
I liked it because of its cushioning properties and ability to
leavel out the back of a cab that was uneven. It REALLY grips, too!
... those materials that might not survive a standard solid-backed
bezel. Turquoise, opal, specular hematite, sugilite and lapis
come to mind."
I don’t know if this statement originated with Wayne I excerpted the
quote from Pam Chott’s question.
In any case does a solid backed bezel determine whether you use
liquid gasket material, sawdust, match book cover or some such?
Clarification would be helpful.
A good base for stones (cabs only) is a mix of sawdust and
water-based (not solvent-based) clear caulking. The caulking gives
durability and a bit of a cushion, helpful, too, with stones that
have an uneven back, and the sawdust gives lift.
I do not want to argue with the author of the above statement. I am
addressing my comments to those who just starting in the trade.
Gemstones are only set in metal. Absolutely nothing else is used. If
you have a book which recommends setting gemstones using anything
else but metal, stop reading this book !
If you suspect that gemstone may not withstand the wear, do not use
such gemstone, no matter how pretty it may be.
Hallmarking identifies the type and quality of the metal. Having
sawdust, plastic, cardboard, or sage backing the stone does not
change the quality of the metal. Hallmarking does not identify the
weight of the metal, it identifies the metal and the purity.
Weight of the jewellery is always implied in transaction. It is very
deceptive to sell jewellery of certain heft when heft comes from
sawdust and any other substance, but not the metal itself.
If stone cannot withstand wear, than it should not be used at all.
Materials like cardboard, sage, plastic, and etc do not have
durability and permanence implied in jewellery.
When I first started making jewelry, most all of the turquoise I
saw had a black backing on it just so it could withstand the
cutting and polishing process. This was before stabilization.
Devcon liquid steel, FYI. Mix 1lb. can, lay wax paper on table top,
spread Devcon on paper, pepper with rough turqoise, come back the
next day and break it up…
I have to point out that you are among fewer than 20 jewelers on
this listserver that I respect enough to be sure to read your posts.
I think that you are going a little overboard on this sawdust issue,
however. Personally, I apprenticed in a workshop that serviced
jewelry for about 180 stores. I did get a chance to see and learn to
service all types of jewelry. Anything from pot metal charms to
twenty carat diamonds was in the daily workload.
Weight of the jewellery is always implied in transaction. It is
very deceptive to sell jewellery of certain heft when heft comes
from sawdust and any other substance, but not the metal itself.
Weight is certainly an issue with jewelry, but in my experience, has
only really been used with traditional Native American, and some art
jewelry. These are primarily labor driven industries and though
metal prices are currently an issue with the producers of jewelry, in
the end labor from manufacture to delivery is certainly the biggest
factor. When any of this work finds it’s way to the pawn shop, only a
small fraction of it’s cost will pass back on to the retail buyer.
The sawdust involved probably has a specific gravity of.5 as solid
wood. The air pockets in sawdust probably reduce this to.3. How much
do you think that this really affects the total weight and do you
really think that the purpose is to defraud?
I find other practices much easier to complain about. Silver
candlesticks filled with shellac and electroformed pieces come to
mind. How about “rhodium plated” silver that includes copper and
nickel in the plating process? School ring manufacturers have been
using plastic bearings for years. Some years ago I saw a lot of paper
thin gents mountings filled with epoxy. How does one establish the
weight of enameled work?
When these pieces of jewelry do go to melt, and in fact, a lot of it
certainly will, Wood dust will not contaminate the metal. Many
jewelers will recycle it without a second thought.
bruce
Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Benchjeweler goldwerx.us
Yes, that my statement originally. And, yes, I was speaking about
solid-backed bezels. The Permatex is a thick liquid, squeezed out of
a tube. I use enough to create a layer about 1/16th to 1/8th inch
thick in the bttom of the bezel cup, then press the stone slightly
into it and allow it to dry overnight before closing the bezel. The
Permatex is designed to be used as a liquid gasket on engine blocks,
so it will withstand considerable heat, is impervious to oil, water,
alcohol, and will not break down in the ultrasonic. It absorbs shock
well and I have found it ideal for shock sensitive materials.
The sawdust involved probably has a specific gravity of.5 as solid
wood. The air pockets in sawdust probably reduce this to.3. How
much do you think that this really affects the total weight and do
you really think that the purpose is to defraud?
My point of “implied weight” was to stress the perception of the
sawdust presence rather then suggest that it contributes
significantly to the weight of the jewellery. So on this point you
are
correct. But if we relax the standard, then what is next ? 17.9 kt
gold instead of 18 kt ? Just because it will be only a few pennies
per item difference, is not a justification to do it.
There is always ways to do something cheaper and faster. I was a
manufacturing contractor as one time. I can write a book about
shortcuts, but it usually done when manufacturing jewellery which is
meant to be given away, but not sold ( corporate promotions and etc.
) It irks me to no end to see these techniques making their ways into
the fine jewellery. What is even worse is when it is presented as a
legitimate alternative to the traditional technique.
May be I am going overboard on this issue, but I am horrified of the
idea that this technique may gain a foothold as an acceptable
solution to setting a difficult stone.
Permatex I liked it because of its cushioning properties and
ability to leavel out the back of a cab that was uneven. It REALLY
grips, too!
That sounds like a great solution to a poster’s query last week (or
the week before) when they were asking about “gluing” stones in when
the sides of the stone and bezel walls were vertical rather than
sloped.
Gemstones are only set in metal. Absolutely nothing else is used
I respect your comments and thoughts (even if I don’t always agree)
but in this case you are 100% right.
I’d really question an appraisal including saw dust, gasket sealer,
and cat fur. In my mind it is is a pretty slippery distinction
between the above fillers and just gluing the stone in. Good setting
is all about the bearing under the stone, bending metal over the top
is cosmetic and keeps the stone from falling out.
Isn’t idealism a fine sight! I remember going to a Lalique show here
some years back, and noticed that one of the major “black” opals was
painted black on the back - you could see where it was peeling away.
It’s very nice to talk about what “should” be, and how all stones
“should” fit perfectly - I like the “just don’t set them” post quite
a lot - isn’t that useful advise? BTW, out of curiosity I filled a
14mm wide cup around 1/2 way with sawdust and asked Mr. Mettler. It
weighed 1.39 cts - more than I expected. At today’s spot, silver
comes out to.11 USD/carat, which makes our sawdust 15 cents. 14kt. is
around $6.25, but then again nobody’s weighing jewelry with a 14mm
cabochon set into it, anyway, are they?
Reality is that there was a time when I was making 100 turquoise
rings a week, all with baroque stones and standard bezel wire, and
getting paid a handsome $2.25 each for the pleasure. That was the
product, and those were the economics of it - they were $30 rings, at
the time. Sitting there crafting little wire seats of just a certain
height for each simply isn’t an option, especially taking into
consideration that the end result is identical - a well set stone of
the right height. Idealism is a fine thing - knowing the right way to
do whatever the job to be done is is much more useful. The world is
big.
I believe we have gotten into cultural differences here, and a bit
of disdain has found its way into some posts.
I doubt very much that the issue is deceiving someone, here in the
United States, we are far less inclined to do so, by nature. We are
also less inclined to be suspicious.
Native American Jewelry made use of Sawdust, as many have already
posted, not to give the impression of a larger stone, nor a heavier
weight of jewelry, simply because it resolved a problem at hand.
There were some extraordinary craftsmen, perfectly capable of “doing
the right thing,” but right by who’s definition.
It suits no purpose at all to offer criticism implying chicanery on
the part of the jeweler. I do not consider 9 or 10 K Gold, but when
I first traveled to Europe, my 14K was not considered "Real Gold"
that was until I got to points East, where anything less than 22k or
24K was not considered real gold.
We do have cultural differences, does not make anyone more right
than anyone else.
We are International, and perhaps could respond in a kinder manner,
IMHO.
I love the spirited debates Orchid generates on so many topics!
On occasion, I work with freeform boulder opal which usually has a
distinctly rounded and often uneven bottom. The top of one leaf
shaped piece was actually concave, the edges were very thin and
sharp, the tips pointed and there was a distinct variance in the
thickness. The idea of setting it terrified me, I could just see the
tips chipping, but it was so gorgeous I had to have it! The final
solution included a very minute amount of household clear silicon
caulking under the partial bezel setting so that the stone had an
even, cushioned base to rest on. This idea was recommended to me by
a trade jeweller with many years of experience and, IMHO, great
professional integrity. It worked, and sold quickly to a lady who
loved it as much as I did.
Jane Walker
www.australiannaturalgemjewellery.com.au
But if we relax the standard, then what is next ? 17.9 kt gold
instead of 18 kt ? Just because it will be only a few pennies per
item difference, is not a justification to do it.
The case of marking precious metals with their metal purity is not
one of perception. It’s a statement of fact that’s defined by the
Federal Trade Commission (FTC) in the US. In other countries it’s
regulated by other agencies.
but I am horrified of the idea that this technique may gain a
foothold as an acceptable solution to setting a difficult stone.
I think that’s the reason some here are horrified - it’s not “gaining
a foothold” - backing stones is as old as jewelry itself… There’s a
proper place and an improper place for it, but it’s not “wrong”.
Just to add a slightly different dimension to this discussion…here
in the UK, I was taught that using a very thin layer of sawdust as a
cushion (& also including a small note as mentioned by a previous
poster) was part of the traditional method of setting enamelled
pieces. This was according to my tutors, all retired master
goldsmiths who had a vast wealth of experience between them - having
made everything from ceremonial chains & insignia to jewellery for
most of the crowned heads of Europe. I appreciate enamel is “merely” glass, but it would seem that the use of sawdust in fine
jewellery has been acceptable for many decades.
In the be-all-end-all everybody has their own opinion about this.
I, being Native American, and apprenticed under a traditional
silversmith....the thought process behind stones, especially
turquoise and the like....
Nice to see another New Mexican on here! The first person I studied
with is a Native American goldsmith here in Santa Fe – well
respected and all that jazz. And he, too, taught us to use whatever
was needed to create an aesthetically pleasing piece. Of course, poor
technique was also frowned upon, and laziness was unacceptable. But,
as you were pointing out, a lot of stones coming from local cutters
(especially a while back) were and are uneven, in an effort to
preserve a fabulous slice of stone wedged in uneven matrix, etc. I
certainly wouldn’t pair a flawless diamond with a hunk of plastic,
but in a $120 ring, I have no qualms about using something to create
an aesthetically pleasing item, and definitely don’t hold back when
telling the customer that their piece contains a bit of this or that
for future reference.
That, actually, is a bit odd. Unless the stones are badly cut,
what's behind them should make no difference at all! Plus, of
course, you pretty much always want an opening behind faceted
stones so they can be cleaned because dirt will get in there and
that WILL make a difference!
I agree… it’s VERY odd. I’d never seen it done. The stones don’t
actually set IN the foil… it’s just pushed down into the bottoms
of the settings. I’m not fond of doing the closed-back tube settings.
It had always been pounded into me that you HAD to have an open back
to clean the stones. However, the woman that “designed” the jewelry
is, in fact, not a jeweler, and argued at length with the woman that
created the casting models, so alas, there are no openings behind
the stones. If I didn’t have kids that need clothing and food, I
would probably be more choosy in my contract work, but this is what
the casting company has referred to as “rich people costume jewelry.”
Must be nice…
May be I am going overboard on this issue, but I am horrified of
the idea that this technique may gain a foothold as an acceptable
solution to setting a difficult stone.
Leonid, not everyone is in the position of being able to
legitimately offer limited edition sterling silver rings at $30,000
each. I think I speak for 98% -plus- of the orchid members when I say
that we applaud your position in the jewelry market, and that, for
your customers, any shortcut would be too much of a shortcut. For the
rest of us, the difference between doing it the “Studio Arete” way
and the “quicker” way is the difference between having an unsaleable,
too-expensive masterpiece, and having a piece that matches the
budgets and expectations of our customers.
glass, but it would seem that the use of sawdust in fine