Coins as FINE silver? The pre-74 US coins were 90% silver right? I
may need to break open the piggy bank if they’re fine.
Justine
Enamelation!
Trevor,
You have a very scientific outlook toward metalworking, and I really
admire that. It is certainly not my forte’. I am really too busy to
take the time that you can afford to the research the metals you do.
Your last message is quite academic about the specifics of different
sterling alloys, and have even gone to the trouble of listing the
ingredients of several of United Metals patented formulas, although
you admit that you are not certain they represent the S88 alloy in
question. Personally, I don’t care what specifically is in the alloy,
because that is United Metal’s proprietary formula, and for the time
and money they have no doubt spent to develop this alloy, they
deserve to right to keep that specific formula a trade secret.
Truthfully, if I were you, I might expect to hear from one of United
Metal’s attorneys if they thought you were attempting to make public
their proprietary formulas. Specifically, I have a problem with the
idea that you have not actually worked with the S88 Sterling. Why is
that? It is a reasonably easy and straight-forward thing to call up
United Metals and order an ounce or 2 of the S88 Master Alloy. Might
set you back $20 or less. Melt the alloy together with some pure
silver and make some S88 to test yourself. Roll it, draw it, cast
with it, polish it, and put it on your finger or set it on the shelf
and see how it “ages”.
When you’ve satisfied yourself that you’ve given it as complete and
scientific testing as you can give it, then please let us know what
you discover. I for one would love to see what you’ve found out.
Jay Whaley UCSD Craft Center
Justin
Coins as FINE silver? The pre-74 US coins were 90% silver right? I may need to break open the piggy bank if they're fine.
Take a look at this site, it will explain the use of the term coin
for you in the context of the previous post.
http://www.nwtmintbullion.com/silver_nwtmintbullion.php
Select the “NWT Mint bullion” to find coins.
Terry
Orchidians,
There has been a fair amount of interest in United Metal’s S88
Sterling and it’s working characteristics. Not being an expert on
metalurgy, I felt compelled to contact United Metals to speak with
them directly about their alloy.
I just got off the phone with Jim “Doc” Sivertsen, United’s
technical expert, who was very plain-spoken about their products and
philosophy. He welcomes any inquiries about the S88, or other
products his company manufactures, by phone or e-mail.
You can reach him at: doc@unitedpmr.com or call him at (800)
999-3463 Ext. 141
Unfortunately, United Metals does not manufacture sheet or wire
products, so anyone intersted in the S88 sterling in that form will
be out of luck. It’s available in shot form only.
Jay Whaley
Coins as FINE silver? The pre-74 US coins were 90% silver right? I may need to break open the piggy bank if they're fine.
Pre-'65 coins (meaning through 1964) are 90%…don’t know of any US
coinage as late as '74 that contains actual silver.
Matthew
www.MatthewDesigns.com
Personally, I don't care what specifically is in the alloy, because that is United Metal's proprietary formula, and for the time and money they have no doubt spent to develop this alloy, they deserve to right to keep that specific formula a trade secret.
It would seem to me that if United is interested in selling their
product to other than casters, they’d offer it mill products like
wire & sheet of various sizes. As metalsmiths our time is more
valuable designing & making things than rolling wire or sheet from
casting grain.
The other thing that would be a welcome sight would be a technical
sheet listing suggested ways for annealing, soldering, pickling etc
if they’re are better ways than what the typical metalsmith is
accustom to.
Dave
Justine,
Please look on the coin itself for markings indicating Fine or
Sterling. Some of the markings are on the rim and you must look
carefully.
In addition to Minted Coins, there have been Commemoratives of both
Sterling and Fine. Check before melting.
Terrie
Justine,
U.S. silver coins were 90% silver up to and including 1964. From 1965
to 1969 the mint produced 40% silver half dollars for regular
circulation and in 1970 for mint and proof sets.
After this time the mint produced 90% silver coins only in special
addition sets.
Greg DeMark
greg@demarkjewelry
www.demarkjewelry.com
More three cent comments. (inflation)
I tend to side with the more “scientific” approach. I want to know
what I am working with. What if that “proprietary” formula includes
cadmium or some other fun stuff and it is not disclosed? I have found
that the more I understand about a material, the more I can get away
with…safely.
Just some thoughts.
Bill Churlik
@Bill_Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com
Commemorative coins, from reputable coin shops, Justine. My casting
teacher put me on to them. They seem too pretty and shiny to cut
up…c’est la vie.
Kay Taylor
I am a typical metalsmith. I find that I can roll or pull an ingot
into sheet or wire much faster than it will take to order it on the
phone. Why wait 2-3 days to make a project, when I can just make the
wire or sheet myself. Waiting for it to be delivered by mail adds
time which is money to my project. I find that when I make some sheet
or wire I make lots of sheet or wire for future products. If you can
not melt and make your own stock then maybe you are not a real metal
smith.
Rich
I am really too busy to take the time that you can afford to the research the metals you do.
It’s not that big a deal Jay. I think we all like to experiment a
little when the opportunity presents itself. I certainly wouldn’t
describe it as “scientific”. And since such an experiment usually
takes about 5 minutes I’m not too concerned about the time they take.
It’s a pretty cheap way to learn some useful stuff if you ask me.
In this particular case I have experimented a little with some
zinc-tin sterling alloys and I’ve seen that they all form that zinc
oxide skin when torch heated on the bench. In fact I think it’s
precisely because of that skin that they appear to be firescale
resistant and low tarnishing.
That skin appears to be fairly zinc rich which probably explains why
it takes a pretty decent polish. But the trouble is that it is thin,
albeit fairly tough, and it will abrade through. Once it does you
have metal that looks like it’s been plated with the darker surface
plate now wearing off. Since the United patent previously cited
supposedly applies to S88 that would make it one of those zinc-tin
based sterling alloys. It’s not exactly rocket science to wonder if
it too doesn’t get the same zinc oxide skin. As I said, if it was me
making stuff out of this and selling it I’d sure as heck want to know
this.
Truthfully, if I were you, I might expect to hear from one of United Metal's attorneys if they thought you were attempting to make public their proprietary formulas.
Your distain for what you call the “scientific” approach seems to
apply to the law as well. Patent infringement is defined as:
"the manufacture and/or use of an invention or improvement for
which someone else owns a patent issued by the government"
At no time did I make any indication that I had any intent to
manufacture or improve upon S88, quite the contrary. And as far as I
know US patent documents are readily available to the public. I’d
bet that knowledge of such a document, it’s contents or quoting from
said document is not grounds for legal action of any kind. Then again
I’m not familiar with US patent law so if you have better information
on this feel free to share it with us.
But that’s really beside the point. Personally I don’t give a hoot
what the exact specifications of S88 are. What I do care about, and
I am suggesting that most responsible makers and sellers would
likewise care, is the basic content of the alloy in order to know
how it is going to behave and react.
After all what are you going to say when one of your customers,
perhaps someone concerned about such things, asks you want is in it?
If you just shrug and say “dunno, but it sure is purdy ain’t it?” I
suspect that you will have fewer paying customers than there might
otherwise have been. Ditto with your students should they find
themselves in a similar situation.
I’m sure you’re aware that many people care about and dislike nasty
things in their jewelry. So do many governments, witness the EU
restrictions on nickel alloys for example. I’m not saying that zinc
and tin or whatever else may be in S88 are nasty but if they are
present in significant amounts then sooner or later that is going to
need to be known.
Let me offer a related example. When the discussions of Argentium
Sterling were getting started here on Orchid one of the first things
people wanted to know is what’s in it. Germanium and copper we were
told. Care to guess how many people wanted to know what germanium is
and whether there were any health issues related to it? Lots! To
this day keywords and phrases like “skin reaction” and “hypo
allergenic” are top 20 search terms on my site, precisely I think
because people do care about such things.
The fact that we don’t yet know what’s in S88 simply means that S88
is dodging that particular line of inquiry, for now. It wouldn’t
surprise me if at some point down the road there are calls for
on the skin reactivity and toxicology of zinc-tin
sterling alloys.
And how will that zinc oxide skin, again assuming S88 gets it,
affect the results at the assayers office? Or when someone does a
touchstone test on it? Some people need to care a whole lot about
such things.
I have a problem with the idea that you have not actually worked with the S88 Sterling. Why is that?
First of all I don’t live in the US and if I want to import metals I
have to deal with customs over it. Secondly I don’t cast so doing
what you need to do from the master alloy grain is not an option for
me at this time. So, between the customs hassle and fact that I’ve
got a life it really hasn’t been a priority for me. Like you I’ve got
other things to do.
Now it someone were to send me a sample of the final product (the
sterling alloy not the master) then I’d happily spend a little time
testing it to see what we see. Care to volunteer? Beyond that I’ll
satisfy myself with the that I’ve been asking for all
along, namely “what’s in it” because that will tell me, and us, a lot
about what to expect from it.
When you've satisfied yourself that you've given it as complete and scientific testing as you can give it, then please let us know what you discover.
As I hope I’ve made clear Jay putting a torch to a piece of metal
and polishing it a bit to see what you’ve got is hardly “scientific”.
From every book I’ve ever read on metal crafting such tests are about
as basic as it gets. Personally I can’t imagine investing hundreds of
hours in crafting goods for sale with an alloy without spending at
least a little time doing some basic tests and experimentation on it.
But different strokes for different folks I guess. Regardless, it
ain’t “scientific”, it’s more like “noodling” or “familiarizing
yourself”.
Anyway, that said, I’ll happily do my thing with the stuff if you’d
care to send me a sample. If you’re interested contact me offline and
I’ll forward you my coordinates.
Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com
I have been using S88 for many years. I used to buy the alloy as Rio
Grande’s fire scale free alloy. They recently stopped selling the
alloy and switched to Argentium, so it took me a while to find out
who made the alloy, but in the old Rio catalog it listed the
ingredients as Indium, copper, boron and tin. I alloy my own silver
and make all my own sheet and wire, and I will continue to use this
alloy untill it is no longer available then I will retire. I also use
it for castings. I have had no complaints. I have no complaints. I
find it many times easier to use than regular sterling, and I don’t
need any special solders or other propritary materials. Give it a
try!..
Owen Walker
I just got off the phone with Jim "Doc" Sivertsen, United's technical expert, who was very plain-spoken about their products and philosophy. He welcomes any inquiries about the S88, or other products his company manufactures, by phone or e-mail.
FWIW, I’ve tried two different contacts at United, both provided by
Jay, and received no reply. I’ve waited a number of weeks in both
cases and got nothing, not even an acknowledgement of my emails.
Admittedly they may feel that they have some reason for ignoring me
in particular but that doesn’t exactly add up to “welcomes any
inquiries”.
Hopefully others will have better luck getting the they
seek from United Re: S88.
As it happens I found what I needed elsewheRe: zinc is indeed a
primary component of S88.
Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com