Propane story

I have my tank outside, on a little concrete slab and drilled a
hole through my wall so I didn't have to drag a tank around with
me. 

In SC I was told I could not do that - no connection between tank
and inside :frowning: That had been my plan. You can have pipe running from
an outside propane tank to a gas heater inside, but not to run a
torch. They said there is a significant pressure difference and that
is why… I have a friend in NC who has a set up similar to what Paf
describes above that I had planned to emulate… oh well, the best
laid plans…

Beth Wicker

In Italy it is a safety requirement for a lab using gases to have a
hole at floor level that in a wall that gives onto an outside space.

If you have low pressure natural gas you can get safe consistent
performance from a G-TEC Torch Booster. It doesn’t store any gas - it
boosts pressure and supplies gas to your torch as it is used. At any
time there is less than 1 cubic foot of gas in the Booster so after
it is turned off even if all the gas leaked out it would be a limited
amount. Because natural gas is about half the specific gravity of air
it would rise and dissipate. Solenoids and check valves prevent gas
flowing from the utility pipe through the Booster into your studio
when the system is off.

With a Torch Booster you can raise gas pressure to the 3-6 psi
recommended for most bench torches or raise pressure to 10 psi or
more for melting and casting platinum. You’ll also have enough
pressure to install a flashback arrestor on the torch hose to comply
with OSHA regulations and fire codes, as well as work safely.

You also won’t run out of gas, ever.

Natural gas is a great fuel for jewelry manufacturing if you can get
it at the right pressure - a G-TEC system gives you the pressure and
flow you need for superior torch performance - and a safe studio…

Ed Howard
G-TEC Natural Gas Systems

I will admit I have an agenda here. Because I run a rental
studio/jewelry school here in San Diego, and work mostly with people
starting out in metalsmithing, I work hard to bring more people into
the wide world of metalsmithing. That’s good for my business, as
well as other related businesses, like those that sell tools and
supplies, and instructors who come to teach here. I also work hard to
make metalsmithing less scary, more inviting, even fun. I try to make
metalsmithing processes seem more user-friendly, less complicated,
and less technically confusing.

The ongoing thread about the dangers of propane and other compressed
gasses in studios is making my blood pressure go up. Oh yes,
flammable gasses need to be treated carefully, but should not be
considered the threat to life that many are suggesting here. Some
can site stories of someone they’ve heard of who blew up their house
or garage with leaking gas, but honestly, I don’t personally know of
anyone that has happened to. I’ve been working around compressed
gasses as well as piped-in natural gas for over 35 years in homes,
apartments, shops and garages, and I have NEVER had an problem.
Honestly, if that many propane or acetylene tanks were exploding as
often as people imagine they do, the manufacturers and suppliers of
compressed gasses would have been litigated out of business long ago.

If you plan to be a metalsmith, or even dabble with it as a hobby at
home, at some point you’re going to need a torch. They are fabulous
creative tools, so vital for metalsmithing. If you’re a professional,
you most likely have a range of torches in your shop, from large ones
to cast with, to tiny ones to repair chains or re-tip mountings. If
you are just working in your home studio, and can only afford one
torch, get one which can offer you the widest range of heating
capabilities, so as your skills grow, you can do more with your
torch. If you “settle” on a tiny, cute torch as the only torch in
your studio because you feel that a tiny cute torch is safer than a
larger one, you may not have the ability to do what you want with it
for larger or even average-sized soldering projects. So many
questions on Orchid related to soldering difficulties often seem
related to not having enough heat to do the job properly.

It is a shame that jewelry-supply stores ( jewelry torch) and
welding supply stores ( hoses, regulators, tanks) are not better
integrated. It can be hugely frustrating to take your newly purchased
torch to a welding supply store and try to get the fittings necessary
to properly connect everything up. Once you have your torch, hoses,
regulators and tanks set up, check well for any leaks, and be sure to
turn all gasses off when you are finished using your torch. If you
follow the safety rules, you have a pretty safe torch. If you’re
still queasy about possibly blowing you or your studio up, by all
means take a safety course offered by your nearest welding supply
house.

Learn to feel confident, not afraid, of the tools you use to be
creative with.

Jay Whaley

Thank you Jay. Very well thought out response. I use the propane
mainly for a glass torch at my house, but the same things apply. Kind
of tired of people looking at me like I’m crazy. Not crazy, just
careful.

Kerry
celtcraftdesign.artfire.com

I fussed and worried excessively on the type of torch to buy. I
worried about safety (despite the fact that natural gas is pumped
into my house and used for my gas stove, bbq, fireplace, heating
etc), stressed about bylaws, lack of from my city, etc. I
wasted time and money (not to mention silver) using limited
disposable torches, when I should have, in hindsight, gone straight
to my new torch. Many thanks to Orchid members who calmly steered me
thru and helped me set up my acetylene/air torch (special thanks to
Cynthia Eid and Ronda C. for responding to panicky emails and to Rio
for calming me down when my striker didn’t work). A huge thanks to
the article on Ganoskin with a step by step description (w photos)
for setting up the system. I’m sure that I could have delayed a few
grey hairs had I been calmer - for me, the choice of fuel/torch came
down to 3 things - what the City would allow (no large propane tanks
indoors, so that ruled out propane), my metal choice (silver) and
economics (single fuel system was cheaper than a dual fuel).

A reminder to alert your insurance company in advance, re a new
torch. My house insurance dropped me twice (in case once wasn’t
enough), and I had to scramble to find a new insurer. The new
insurer was more worried about theft than fire/explosion, after
having a demo of the torch, safety precautions being taken, etc.

Cheers
Ros

You can test for leaks with soapy water (or proprietary solutions
if you prefer). 

I do this test by whipping up some liquid dish soap and applying the
frothy bubbles to the top of gauge, tank and hose). Then I watch,
while the bubbles slowly pop and dissipate, feeling a little stupid
because I’m thinking, how would I recognize a small leak if it were
here? Is there some element missing from my test for leaks?

Judy Bjorkman

using the proprietary solutions to check for leaks, since these
days, many soaps are made in part from petroleum products.
Eventually, these elements can dry and accumulate on the equipment
enough to ignite if there's a leak.. 

Interesting info. Never thought of that. I was first introduced to a
torch in New Mexico, possibly the industry leader in making do
(bench grinder bolted to stumps in the snow, turquoise dug out of
the ground with screwdrivers, doublets backed w/ old record vinyl,
ball hitches and machine bolts used as forming stakes), and I was
taught to spit on the connections - thicker than water, the spit
will show leaks by bubbling. Only difficulty is in the aim, because
if you miss, you then have to work up the spit to try again. A good
model for learning.

I agree with Mr. Whaley about respect, not fear, being a more
productive attitude towards torches (paraphrasing here) but I had a
surprising amount of resistance to using mine at first. Fire doesn’t
frighten me, after 8 years as a professional firefighter, but
compressed flammable gas did. (It’s not the frequency of something
happening, but the consequences of it happening once.) My solution
was education (thanks, Hanuman) and a completely unnecessary set of
auxiliary flashback arrestors installed to my two acetylene torches.
The welding shop argued strenuously against their necessity, but it
was psychological, not logical, and completely eased my mind. Now I
go through a tank in 4 months, instead of 8 years! If you have done
your torch homework and still feel uneasy, ask yourself WHAT exactly
you are afraid of, and address that, even if it doesn’t make sense
to your logical mind.

Blessings,
Sam Kaffine
sterlingbliss.com

I do this test by whipping up some liquid dish soap and applying
the frothy bubbles to the top of gauge, tank and hose). Then I
watch, while the bubbles slowly pop and dissipate, feeling a little
stupid because I'm thinking, how would I recognize a small leak if
it were here? Is there some element missing from my test for leaks? 

I use the same thing, a little bit diluted. A small leak will
produce small bubbles, and it will be a steady bubbling.

Richard Hart G.G.
Denver, Co.

Then I watch, while the bubbles slowly pop and dissipate, feeling
a little stupid because I'm thinking, how would I recognize a small
leak if it were here? 

The advantages of the proprietary solutions (eg: Snoop) for leak
detection are consistency, convenience, and lack of residue. With
your torch off but pressurized, use the tiny, flexible tube on the
applicator bottle to apply the solution to all threaded connections
from torch to tank. A leak will be obvious as you will see a steady
stream of tiny bubbles. Test again after fixing the bad connection
and after making any connection changes in the future. Good luck,
have fun, and make lots of pretty things.

Ray

Hello Marilyn,

From what I have read so far, no one has actually addressed your
question…

Yes, propane is heavier then air. It will actually pool in low spots
similar to the way water pools and this is why it can be dangerous.

However unlike acetylene when propane ignites you will have a fire
and not an explosion. When combined with oxygen this explosion hazard
is increased considerably with both gases.

The fact remains that any fuel gas you use will have it’s hazards.
However you will not have to worry about loosing your home insurance
for using propane, natural gas or butane. This isn’t the case with
acetylene. In some cases if you are renting and the landlord finds
out, you can be evicted. I have never had a landlord freak out about
propane.

If you were to compare the hazards of acetylene and propane
together, propane looks like fuzzy kitten compared to acetylene!!!

The whole acetylene/propane deal is like Mac or PC, Coke or Pepsi,
politics and religion… Use what works for you.

The best way to deal with leaks is to familiarize yourself with what
to do when one happens. Don’t freak out. This is what leak detectors
and Co meters are for.

Take care and I hope I addressed your question
Kenneth

Judy-

Simple: if you have any kind of leak the bubbles just keep on coming!
They don’t dissipate. So then you tighten something and try again.

Hope this helps.
Richard in Fairfax

I do this test by whipping up some liquid dish soap and applying
the frothy bubbles to the top of gauge, tank and hose). Then I
watch, while the bubbles slowly pop and dissipate, feeling a little
stupid because I'm thinking, how would I recognize a small leak if
it were here? Is there some element missing from my test for leaks? 

IANAP (I am not a plumber), but here is what I think.

I don’t believe that the soapy water should be frothy/bubbly before
you put it on the hose or connections. It should be a mixture of
soap and water, but not stirred/whipped (NOT like a bubble bath or a
sink ready to do dishes).

I have seen people brush on the water, slop it on with a rag, and
spray it from a bottle. The soap is there to make leaks more obvious
as the gas escapes through the water. If you got the connections,
hoses, etc. wet enough, and looked closely enough, you might be able
to spot a leak without any soap. The soap is just in the water to
make bigger, more obvious bubbles as the gas escapes.

The proprietary liquid I have is just a liquid, no bubbles unless
there is gas escaping through the liquid. I spray it on and if there
aren’t any leaks, then there aren’t any bubbles.

Here are links to a couple of YouTube videos that show what I expect
when using soapy water to test for gas leaks:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/zq
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/zp

Whit

If you were to compare the hazards of acetylene and propane
together, propane looks like fuzzy kitten compared to
acetylene!!!! 

This debate has been beat to death on Orchid. Oxy/fuel torches are
dangerous. Both can kill you equally fast. There is little
difference between the two common gases and as far as most jewelers
are concerned either can be used. (I use oxy/ace for most things and
oxy/LP for platinum) There are some interesting features of both
gases and this link points to a similar debate (and more information
including pictures) on a regular welding forum.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/zr

The advantages of the proprietary solutions (eg: Snoop) for leak
detection are consistency, convenience, and lack of residue. With
your torch off but pressurized, use the tiny, flexible tube on the
applicator bottle to apply the solution to all threaded
connections from torch to tank. A leak will be obvious as you will
see a steady stream of tiny bubbles. Test again after fixing the
bad connection and after making any connection changes in the
future. Good luck, have fun, and make lots of pretty things. 

I use that cheap bubble-making stuff from the dollar store.
It’s tested in China to make sure it makes bubbles.

Kenneth, Please could you explain why you say that when propane
ignites, there will not be an explosion?

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/zw

Also, please could you explain why you believe a CO meter will be
useful in detecting a propane leak?

Thank you,
Mark

If it leaks it will keep bubbling at the spot where it leaks while
all the other places you sprayed will just start dripping the spray
off. If you have ever had a flat tire they use the same concept. They
spray it until they find the leak. If you have had a swimming raft
you can find the leak that way also. In a swimming pool it is the
opposite, you use colored food dye and the dye goes to the leak and
gets sucked into it.

Val

Poor shredded dead horse, lets beat it some more…

  1. any fuel can explode if the vapor is in the correct mixture with
    air. Heck ask the idiots that were driving a van with the engine
    cowling off and feeding gasoline from an open container, it went BOOM
    too. More specifically Natural gas, Acetylene and Propane are
    explosive in the right proportion to air.

  2. Yes some are lighter or heavier than air and some have narrower
    and wider explosive ranges.

  3. Yes some are easier to ignite than others (Higher or lower
    ignition temp)

But ya know something!! If you disrespect any of them, you are
equally dead if your number comes up.

Many homes use Natural gas or propane for heating and cooking and
the number of explosions are relatively rare.

Almost every car repair center has Acetylene, and they are not
blowing up because of acetylene leaks

The only real difference between any of the fuel gases is that
Propane tanks are not allowed to be stored inside a structure,
miniature tanks excepted. Why?? Very simple reasons, 1) because of
the type of pressure relief valve, which increases the risk of leaks
and 2) because it is stored in a liquid state in the tank. Quite
frankly the fire department couldn’t care less if your house burns to
the ground because of a fire, as long as no one is injured, However
they care a lot about being killed because a propane tank failed in a
BLEVE, after being cooked for enough time, which would kill them too.
In the same situation Acetylene tanks melt out plug would have
melted and while the fire would intensify, the risk would be minimal
to life and limb.

In the case of both Natural gas and propane, Since the supply is
from the exterior, the first thing that the fire department does is
close the valve, cutting off the gas.

If you are considering propane look into the leak detectors that are
available, the look like a smoke detector and there are even 2 way
detector available that detect CO and Propane (really they are just 2
detectors sharing the same casing and battery.)

In any case you should check your equipment on a regular basis for
leaks, and replace any hose that shows cracking (Even if it doesn’t
leak now, because it will later.)

There are also detectors that can detect Natural gas and Acetylene,
but they are expensive comparatively. If you are really paranoid
call a large alarm company and inquire, most small companies wouldn’t
know what you are talking about since these are usually installed in
commercial occupancies.

Thanks to several of you for clarifying for me the bubble test for
gas leaks!

Judy Bjorkman

Kenneth, Please could you explain why you say that when propane
ignites, there will not be an explosion? 

I am not Kenneth.

Google propane and you will find the explosive mix ratio with air…
2.37 - 9.5% for a boom.

Other ratios will burn, then there are bleve explosions which at
rather nasty. Build a fire around a partially filled tank and be
elsewhere :slight_smile: Google has some nice pics.

I don’t know about CO meters but they do sell propane sensors. Very
useful on boats with propane for cooking. Pools of gas in the bilge
can destroy your boat, and maybe you too.

jeffD
Demand Designs
gmavt.net/~jdemand