Propane, Acetylene etc

 If you have ever seen the really big oil or gas storage
tanks, you will notice that there is a large concrete wall
around each one.  This forms a catch basin in the event of a
ruptured tank.

Ya, they were next door to where we stayed in Grand Cayman
(Coconut Harbor) No, I didn’t see any “concrete walls around
each!” In fact, most of the tanks I’ve seen have not concrete
anywhere near them . . . maybe this is something that exists in
your area?

    As a permanent saet-up, if you have a concrete or dirt
floor in your basement, you could build up a concrete wall
around you tank.  Just make sure that the wall is high enough
so that the area of the 'box' that you make is greater than the
volume of the tank you use.  If you have a wood floor, you
could frame out the box with plywood and 2x3's and line it with
something leakproof (place the 2x's on the outside so thay
don't get in the way of the liner).  I know plumbing supply
houses sell a rubber-type material that is used under the
floor of tiled showers, but that may be overkill.  Hardware
stores sell plastic sheeting in various thickness for use as
vapor barriers when insulating a house.  Probably cheaper and
easier to get. Just be careful handling it, as any puncture
would make the dike useless. 

Dah . . . wouldn’t confining these gasses cause more of a
problem, then if they were able to flow freely along the sq
footage floor??? Somehow your theory doesn’t seem quite right
to me.

I am still hoping to hear form people who have had gas leak
incedents in their homes.

I haven’t seen any of those either . . . don’t you think the
accidents (if frequent) would be posted for all to see? Makes me
think that “theory” may not be “reality.”

<< Why not put a small vent in the door, close to the floor? >>

Since my basement is at least 7 feet UNDERGROUND, I have no
doors to put vents into. I do have casement windows near the
ceiling. The ONLY DOOR I have is way above the windows . . . it
leads to the main floor of the house. Any other suggestions?
Thanks anyway! : )

Hi Sharon,

Hope you saw Milt’s response to the ‘dike around the propane
tank’ relative to the following

You could just put the tank into a large plastic trash
barrel.<<

If the propane stayed a liquid when it leaked out of the 5 gal
tank all would be great. However, when thD e tank leaks, the
liquid propane turns to a gas & requires about 200 times the
space. That large trash barrel would have to hold about 1,000
gal, taht’s almost a garbage truck (bg).

Dave

If you have ever seen the really big oil or gas storage tanks,
you will notice that there is a large concrete wall around
each one.  This forms a catch basin in the event of a ruptured
tank. You could just put the tank into a large plastic trash
barrel. 

I suppose that would work . . . but if the tank was really
leaking, would the trash barrel (can) really do any good???
Seems to me that the gas would only be that much more
concentrated (not mixed with air which would “water down” the
strength . . .)

Dah . . . wouldn’t confining these gasses cause more of a
problem, then if they were able to flow freely along the sq
footage floor??? Somehow your theory doesn’t seem quite right
to me.

Althought the concentration of gas may seem like a paradox, the
idea is to keep the leak confined and away from any ignition
source, say an oil burner or gas hot water heater frequently
found in basements…no spark…no explosion. Once you smell the
propane, you can use a dryer vent hose and small fan and evacuate
the confined gas to safe area. I personnally do not confine my
tank because it is, I think, only 2 1/2 gallons and I have no
sources of ignition low to the floor in my store. I also prefer
propane because of the obvious odor when there is a leak.

Relative to the a previous post regarding the expansion of the
gas after release from the pressurized tank (oops, forgot about
that!), I would recommend the use of a quick release connection
between the tank and the torch, so that the tank could be stored
outside when not in use. My real preference is to keep the tank
outside and hardpipe the gas into the house.

Hope this ‘clears the air’ on my post.

Make it a great day!

Sharon Ziemek
GoldStones, Inc.

Once had a leaking acetylene b tank. Smelled all the time near
the work place in the garage. Finally decided it was the tank.
Returned it for another. No fire, no explosion, big stink.
Suspect that if the tank does not take a complete dump the gas
will dissipate slowly and give a warning of leakage. My mentor
stores his tanks outside when
not in use inside his home studio. Most of my associates just
have the tanks available in the home or garage all the time.

Bill Eisenberg

I haven't seen any of those either . . . don't you think the
accidents (if frequent) would be posted for all to see?  Makes me
think that "theory" may not be "reality."

This thread on gas safery has been running for a while now, and
I am surprised that very few people have responded with stories
of gas leak incidents in their homes or studios. It looks like
the safety record of the jewellery industry with soldering
gasses must quite good.

I am still going to make the request one more time…

I would be very interested to hear from people who have had gas
leaks from their soldering gas tanks and to understand what
caused the leaks and what actions may have been taken to prevent
them from happening again.

In a couple of days I am going off line for a few weeks (while I
move), but when I am back on line I will compile a single list
of all the responses (if there are any).

MILT

Since my basement is at least 7 feet UNDERGROUND, I have no
doors to put vents into.  I do have casement windows near the
ceiling.  The ONLY DOOR I have is way above the windows . . . it
leads to the main floor of the house. Any other suggestions?
Thanks anyway! : )

Hi,
I have been following most of the discussion on propane and such.
I have to say also that every jewelry shop needs to have a
ventilation system of some sort that moves the gases from the
room to the outside. Every time we heat many of these metals
they release some sort of gas. Also flux gives off some harmful
fumes. I think that some enamels have lead in them which is
released into the air.

The supplyers of all the hazerdous materials that we use have
on the dangers of the products. They will send you
the info upon request.

Any of you that are on Compuserve can find a file on the Jewelry
Gems and Beads Forum That talks about ventilation and there is at
least one on hazerdous materals. Just thought I’d say that.
Fred Rossman: @fbrossman

Hi Milt, Jim Zimmerman here. In former letter I referred to a
forty pound tank’s high pressure valve which is located opposite
the threaded on valve stem. When the shop needed the tank
refilled in winter (-6 C. or 20 F. temperature I think) it was
taken to gas station and filled. Gas attendant are usually high
school kids, with the good intention of giving us real value for
our money. I think he over filled the tank. We brought back
the tank and put into the shop right next to in fact. I stated
to smell gas (propane) and none of the torches was blown out.
We started a check of the lines and got back the regulator and
found this valve releasing gas that we didn’t know about. I
turned off the tank,M&M Fischbein wrote:

This thread on gas safery has been running for a while now, and
I am surprised that very few people have responded with stories
of gas leak incidents in their homes or studios. It looks like
the safety record of the jewellery industry with soldering
gasses must quite good.
I am still going to make the request one more time.....
I would be very interested to hear from people who have had gas
leaks from their soldering gas tanks and to understand what
caused the leaks and what actions may have been taken to prevent
them from happening again.
In a couple of days I am going off line for a few weeks (while I
move), but when I am back on line I will compile a single list
of all the responses (if there are any).

but it was still leaking out of this valve. The shop put heads
together figured out what happened and took the tank out side
and let off some pressure. We brought the tank back inside and
tried again no more leak. We surmised the leak happened in the
shop because of the temperature difference between the outside
and inside.

I my opinion if I hadn’t been sitting right next the tank to
notice the leak as soon as it happened and was put in remote
unsupervised place like garage. Things could have been a whole
lot worse. Putting a tank in a drum, walled off area, etc., is
simply making a really big bomb. In my opinion not a wise choice
at all.

We cure this temperature problem by simply having the tanks
slightly under filled to account for expansion of the gas.

Yes, Milt it really did happen. Jim alpine@hay.net

Once had a leaking acetylene b tank. Smelled all the time near
the work place in the garage.
No fire, no explosion, big stink.
Suspect that if the tank does not take a complete dump the gas
will dissipate slowly and give a warning of leakage.

Hi Bill,

The nice thing is, your nose is one of the most sensitive
chemical detectors around, you’ll smell stuff that cannot be
detected by any manufactured device for lack of quantity (of
course, there are chemicals you can’t smell at all, as propane
without additive, for example, or carbon monoxide).

regards, Markus

  We surmised the leak happened in the
shop because of the temperature difference between the outside
and inside.
We cure this temperature problem by simply having the tanks
slightly under filled to account for expansion of the gas.
Yes, Milt it really did happen. Jim     alpine@hay.net

Thanks for your “real life example”. You are correct that the
leak happened due to tank overfill and the temperature
difference between the outside where the tank was filled, and
the inside where the tank was stored. These tanks must never be
filled past about 80% and since this is hard to measure
accurately, they are often overfilled resulting in the problem
you had.

If the tank manufacturer had not installed the relief valve on
the tank, the tank might have overpressured and ruptured,
spilling its entire contents into your shop.

Anyone else have some experiences to share?

MILT

Regarding hazardous materials, yes, they are all required to
have a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) which you can request
from your supplier. Also, there is a book on hazardous materials
in the Crafts, but I can’t remember the name of it. Your library
should have a copy, if they don’t they should get one, as it is
exactly the kind of book that you need access to but don’t really
need to have at home, and I’m sure there are lots of
craftspersons in your town. Anyone remember the name of it?

If I decided to store my acetylene tank outside- now safe is
that? I live in New York where we have four seasons…Does
extreme cold and heat >effect the tank?

DeDe

Also, there is a book on hazardous materials
in the Crafts, but I can’t remember the name of it.

Artist Beware by Michael McCann, The Artist’s Complete Health
and Safety Guide by Rossol, Health Hazards Manual for Artists,
The Metalsmith Papers from The Society of North American
Goldsmiths. McCann has a lot of stuff online.

gopher://atlas.chem.utah.edu/11/MSDS
Check the chemicals you work with at this MSDS site.

http://gopher.tmn.com:70/1/Artswire/csa
Michael McCann’s Arts Safety and Hazards site (Center for Safety in the Arts).

http://gopher.tmn.com:70/0/Artswire/csa/arthazards/visualarts/jewelry
The Jewelry/Metals safety and hazards page from McCann’s site.

http://gopher.tmn.com:70/0/Artswire/csa/otherwww.html
McCann’s links pages for health and safety.

http://artsnet.heinz.cmu.edu:70/0/csa/arthazards/genarthaz/leadhaz
A very good article on lead hazards in the arts by Angela Babin.

http://www.fedworld.gov/
Despite the name this is an incredible set of US government resources for
business, health, safety, free publications and tons more.

Charles

Brain Press
Box 1624, Ste M, Calgary, Alberta, T2P 2L7, Canada
Tel: 403-263-3955 Fax: 403-283-9053 Email: @Charles_Lewton-Brain

Metals info download web site: Learning Center - Ganoksin Jewelry Making Community
Product descriptions: http://www.ganoksin.com/kosana/brain/brain.htm
Links list hosted at the Metal Web News:
http://tbr.state.tn.us/~wgray/jewelry/jewelry-link.html

Why not put a small vent in the door, close to the floor? Since
my basement is at least 7 feet UNDERGROUND, I have no doors to
put vents into.  I do have casement windows near the ceiling. 
The ONLY DOOR I have is way above the windows . . . it leads to
the main floor of the house. Any other suggestions? Thanks
anyway! : )

Yes. Put your flammable gas in a relatively airtight container.
When considering this option, I thought of using a large plastic
garbage can, fitted with a plywood cover fitting inside the can,
and closed-cell foam weather stripping around this cover. Attach
an explosion-proof muffin fan for 4-inch flexible plastic (metal
for safety?) hose as attached to clothes dryers. From this fan,
run vent hose up through a window, and put the end of the vent
hose three to five feet away from any window, foundation vent or
soffit vent. Run the explosion-proof fan while using gas, and
periodically at other times. While my fire marshall would not
approve this because there is no provision in the (fairly)
universal US fire code guidelines concerning such a setup, he
felt this would likely work. Yourfire marshall probably won’t
approve it either, for the same reasons.

What else the fire marshall recommended, and/or suggested:

If you are below ground, the space should be positively vented
to the outside from the low and high points of the room, taking
care of gasses lighter and heavier than air. This is not a
problem in Memphis. There are very few basements … (excuse me
– indoor swimming pools) in Memphis!

Put the tank with fuel outside. If the tank is small (i.e. 20
or so pounds, as in a barbeque grill tank) It should be placed
3-feet at the foundation from any window, door, soffit vent, or
foundation vent. (This particular marshall would prefer 5-feet,
but would accept three.)

This tank should be secured so that it will not fall over or
tip, possibly causing liquid gas to enter the feed line.

If possible, the regulator should be protected from the weather
by an open-bottomed cover. (He suggested a plastic bucket
upside-down over the top of the tank!)

If available, the hose from the regulator to the gas pipe
leading into the house (see below) should be covered with metal
fabric.

Black iron pipe should be used to carry flammable gas into the
house and to the immediate area of the workbench. Appropriate
flexible hose may be used to connect the torch or appliance to
the gas line.

This pipe (not the hose connecting the torch, etc.) should be
installed by a plumber accredited for such a task. Most
municipalities will require this in the building code. A
building permit might be required.

There should be an easily accessible shutoff valve at each end
of the pipe, not counting the shutoff on the handpiece or other
appliance.

The pipe should be fitted with a flashback arrestor, and, if
available in your area, an excess flow arrestor.

While the fire marshall in Memphis felt there was no inherent
danger from storing and keeping the oxygen in the house, he did
recommend a flashback arrestor for the oxygen tank.

These recommendations would work for both propane and acetylene.

If the fire department in your city maintains a database of
known hazardous materials for residences, give them information
about the installation for this database.

Boy, the list was longer than I thought, when it is transcribed
however. He suggested that here in Memphis, that it might cost
about $100 to $200 to run the pipe into the house, complete with
shutoffs. I will probably spend the money!

<> Marrin T. Fleet <>
<> MFleet@cc.memphis.edu <>
<> SCT Corp. in adminstration of: <>
<> Admin. Computing Services <>
<> The University of Memphis <>
<> Memphis, TN 38152 <>
<> 901-678-3604 <>

If I decided to store my acetylene tank outside- now safe is  
that?  I live in New York where we have four seasons...Does 
extreme cold and heat >effect the tank? 

IF you live in NYC then I’d be more concerned about having the
tank stolen! ; )