Practice soldering?

Jewelry Discussion
21

Hi Leonid,

If the goal is to become a goldsmith, and since goldsmith works
with precious metal alloys, and precious metal alloys are
SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT from non-precious metal alloys, then my
question becomes - HOW CAN USE OF ANYTHING, BUT PRECIOUS METAL
ALLOYS, CAN BE JUSTIFIED?

Easily :slight_smile: Money, and itā€™s better to practice on ā€œsomethingā€ than to
do ā€œnothingā€.

Apprentices in Australia are a good example of people starting out
in the jewellery trade that simply cannot afford to ā€œpracticeā€ on
gold. To their credit they scrounge and get what they can, the ones
that are better off, work in sterling.

In a class of 12, only one person has used goldā€¦ me. Iā€™m old
enough to be the father of all but two, so Iā€™ve had another career to
support my endeavours.

FYI: An apprentice in Australia earns $7.50 an hour.

Lets try to find a solution.

With your years of experience surely you could suggest a solution?

What can these students practice on?

How can they possibly afford gold?

Regards Charles A.

22 
Someone who learns or practices on brass, copper, etc and then
tries working with silver as their preferred metal, will have a
better understanding of soldering in general, even if they have to
learn the differences of silver after learning the characteristics
of the cheaper metals.

This is absolutely false!

Practice on non-precious alloy will only retard the progress at
best, and at worst will teach wrong habits.

I do not understand the whole debate. I wonder if some student can
describe the exercises that they do, and why are they doing it.

Leonid Surpin

23 
So does that mean one should not learn to set faceted stones with
any other stone than a diamond?

I understand that you asked the question as tongue in cheek, but the
answer is yes. Diamonds require special approach.

In a perfect world, yes it would be wonderful to learn jewelry
fabrication skills using only precious metals. Part of being human
is our ability to adapt. Part of teaching is encouraging
adaptation. If you don't' have the perfect tool, metal, studio or
classroom, then one scours the area and utilizes substitutions.

Are we talking about teaching soldering, or teaching to adapt?

Leonid Surpin

24 
Whether or not I proceed to "precious" metals is a matter of
preference. I prefer not to, since I like large pieces of jewelry,
and gold is unaffordable, or, rather, that is not how I wish to
spend my money. The use of base metal gives me freedom and joy, and
I have no desire to become a high-end jeweler.

The discussion was about training medium for soldering as it applies
to traditional goldsmithing. If someone wants to work in non-precious
alloys, then of course one has to train in metal of his/her choice.

Leonid Surpin

25 
What separates person who knows how to solder from the person who
doesn't? The answer is - heat control. What does heat control means?
The answer is - ability to maintain required temperature in the
critical zone.

yes itā€™s all about getting the thickest pieces of metal heated
sufficiently, then the second thickest, and then zooming in on the
joint very quickly without losing heat to the other pieces, then the
creshendo of the solder melt, a higher temp scale for brass,
copper, and the lower range for silver, and itā€™s always a learning
experience if you treat it that way. I like to make gold, copper
alloy parts for color and solder to silver, and visa versa but i am
a beginner, dave

26

Kelly,

I suggest that while you are a novice, work in your target metal.
Once you become more experienced, you may want to expand to other
metals - you wiill be able to adapt quickly. But when you start
out, it's a big chore just learning all the nuances of one metal.
Don't dilute your experience. That's what's expensive, not the
metal itself.

You make a good point. You are employing adaptation and problem
solving, two areas which I stress in fabrication techniques.

Case in point. In a recent workshop in California, I queried the
students as to their comfort level in soldering and reassured
everyone that insecurity and weaknesses in soldering would be
individually addressed. As expected, everyone felt a bit rusty and
only one or two felt they could solder comfortably which is typical.
One however, daunted by the group did not speak up. Not until we were
soldering pin backs onto a silver casting, did she finally reveal she
had never soldered before and would like to learn.

This presented a challenge for me as a workshop instructor to guide
this person in a solder operation where she could feel successful and
learn at the same time. To move the class along, I could certainly do
the soldering myself, complete the task and have her work on her
resin inlay. However, I like challenges and I dove for some small
brass squares in my tool kit and gave her some impromptu lessons,
condensing what I teach in a long workshop to the specifics the
student required to complete her task.

Yes, I could have used scrap silver for this part, but in this
instance, it was good for her to see what the solder was doing,
especially when she had never soldered before. I clipped three chips
of easy, medium and hard solder and placed them on the brass. She
held the torch and melted all three pieces into a small puddle. She
watched at the rate that each solder melted, thereby enforcing her
visual perception of what ā€œflow rateā€ meant.

Second, I snipped three brass jump rings in half and had her file
them flat. By standing one end of each jump ring in the three puddles
of solder. She guided the torch and watched each one flow. One got
too hot and the solder jumped up onto the ring. Seeing was believing
and she understood.

Then I had her lay a chip of solder by two of the jump rings and she
soldered the other half of the jump ring. The third I had her do a
pick solder. Each time I demonstrated the action and she copied it
right away, thereby increasing and stretching her knowledge of
repetitive soldering.

Then we performed the same tasks on a piece of scrap 22 ga silver.
Finally, I demonstrated soldering the pin backs on her cast piece and
she did the same showing her how to use the tie tack back as a place
for the solder to jump an then heat her casting and solder the piece
onto the back.

The whole process took 20 minutes. She continued on working in
silver, and stated that there was no way she could understand what
had happened had she not first practiced on brass. Her anxiety level
on a more expensive piece of metal would stop her cold from building
her confidence to work on silver and then her own piece of jewelry.

The jist of this is, that teaching for a living, we donā€™t all live
in a perfect world. As a teacher I must adapt to 10 different levels
of soldering skills. The bulk of my students donā€™t solder every day.
People get anxious and I adapt, so do my students. The point is that
we learn. They learn to solder without fear, and I learn to
communicate more clearly with my students and their need.

Karen Christians
Cleverwerx

27

Mr. Surpin, I and many of us reading this will never know the world
in which you live and work, your level of professional ability. I
strive for improvement each time I make a piece and look to learn
in a book" as they illustrate or illuminate a process. Every metal
presents a different face. The essential element or common thread is
torch control, IMHO. I believe, the point of many respondents
through this thread, is simply: yes one can do it. You ask why one
would choose to do so, let me illustrate with a personal example if
you will indulge meā€¦

I wanted to learn how to set a stone. I had none. Looking around the
house and thinking of it, I did have a jar of beach glass that I had
collected over time. I used it. It is not a recommended start for
any newbie, but I learned from doing it. The point is, a purpose was
served, I learned along the way, and it helped me grasp some of the
basic ā€œengineeringā€ and design skills to build upon. I will never be
a master stone setter, but I have accepted a personal challenge to
learn, grow, adapt, and progress in ability with each piece I make.
In some ways, I hope I never have to worry about setting a $10,000
diamondā€¦ hell I couldnā€™t afford the insurance on it!!

My perspective, which I admit up-front is limited, is that of making
do with materials that are readily available. In doing so, I am
developing a skill set, which in the right situation, allows me to
consider how best to do the next something. People have different
"learning styles" and in realizing this, a novice practicing can
still learn a technique that IS transferable to the next level.

I must add, I enjoy reading your posts. While I often do not agree
with the dogmatic philosophy, we are all products of our experience,
and I enjoy the ā€œcolorā€ of your comments and perspective. This is for
me, addressing an " old school master", and I offer this in due
respect. peace

28

Are we talking about teaching soldering, or teaching to adapt?

Teaching is about adaptation. One must first learn a process and
then learn how to adapt his/her own skill set to match. Life is about
adaptation and then evolution. If you canā€™t learn to adapt, you canā€™t
evolve. Without going into hundreds of examples, Iā€™ll use one from my
own experience.

I have very small handsā€¦a big heart LOL, but small hands. I always
wanted to play the piano but I cannot because my hands cannot span an
octave comfortably. This impediment makes holding tools difficult,
but I adapted. In jewelry world, I struggle with many tools. Handles
are made for larger hands than mine, so I learned to adapt. Seeing is
all about adaptation or we wouldnā€™t have magnifiers. Itā€™s what drives
me to make tools for all sizes of hands.

For soldering, if one canā€™t access the metal they need, one must
adapt to what is in front of us. How do you approach the metal? Are
you in the right position for the flame to contact the metal in a way
that everything flows correctly. Is the fit tight so a minimum of
solder is used?

I think the area in question is from two places, like two cultures
trying to find a common balance. You work as a professional goldsmith
in precious metals. I work as a teacher with a range of skill sets,
so for me, yes, teaching soldering is about adaptation and problem
solving. But even for the professional goldsmith problem solving
happens every day. I imagine that each piece you make or repair has
its own unique challenges which makes our job funā€¦at least for me.

And like a diamond, you are engaging (with my tongue in my cheek :slight_smile:

Karen Christians
Cleverwerx

29

Leonid,

I understand that you asked the question as tongue in cheek, but
the answer is yes. Diamonds require special approach.

Please be reasonable. Diamonds are almost always cut close to the
standard shape. Wack them with a steel hammer or tool or have them
touching and they will scream and break. Otherrwise they are very nice
and fun to set.

jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

30

Silver isnā€™t that expensive, so long as the user has a crucible and
enough heat to re-melt it. With a bit of care, the same silver could
be used over and over again. Silver does have a very particular
fragility that has to belearnt. I donā€™t think it matters how much
non-precious soldering someone has done - when they first use silver,
itā€™s a very sharp learning curve.

31

Hi Leonid,

I do not understand the whole debate. I wonder if some student can
describe the exercises that they do, and why are they doing it.

Itā€™s nice to know that working with non-precious alloys/metals are a
bad thing.

However, knowing this without a practical solution is next to
useless.

Can you provide suggestions for budding goldsmiths that ā€œcannotā€
afford gold at todayā€™s prices. An Australian apprentice earns $7.50
an hour.

What can they do?

As you donā€™t understand the debate, itā€™s logical to assume that you
have a solution.

It would be most helpful if you could pass on your wisdom.

Regards Charles A.

32 
Lets try to find a solution. 

With your years of experience surely you could suggest a solution?
What can these students practice on? How can they possibly afford
gold?

Letā€™s say you have very limited shop and do not have access to well
equipped one.

You buy silver wire with 0.5mm in diameter. You get 72 feet per
ounce. Even with silver approaching 20 dollars per once, it should
not cost you more then 25 dollars.

Make all the wire into links with inside diameter 1.5 mm. Make it by
hand, no gadgets. Cut it by hand also. And make chains. Divide links
in two piles. Solder links in one pile and use other links to connect
soldered links, and solder them as well.

Solder links one at a time. If you melt one, adjust your torch, itā€™s
too hot. If it takes too long to flow solder, torch is too cold. You
will get the hang of it very quickly. By the time you finish one
pile, you will know a great deal about soldering.

Connecting links and soldering them is a bit more difficult, but you
will be ready by the time you finish with first pile.

Even if you totally screw up on the first ounce, exchange it for
another one. You will only pay the difference between scrap and wire.

If you have access to equipped shop, make your own wire.

You do not even have to buy solder. Take some scrap and add 10%
copper. Melt it on charcoal block and roll it very, very, very thin.
It will be fine solder for practice.

By the time you assemble all 72 feet in chain, you will be very
competent solderer.

You do not need to worry about gold too much, because gold is easier
than silver. The differences can be picked up in one day.

Leonid Surpin

33 
I wanted to learn how to set a stone. I had none. Looking around
the house and thinking of it, I did have a jar of beach glass that
I had collected over time. I used it. It is not a recommended start
for any newbie, but I learned from doing it.

There is such a thing as clarity of purpose. The quickest way to
learn something is by doing that something. What you are doing is
trying to find a substitution. It is very rarely works, if ever. You
may pick up some skills, but you may also pick up some bad habits.
What you will never pick up by using substitutes is the confidence.

It does not matter what your actual skills are if your hands are
shaking, because you are terrified of screwing up. Letā€™s say you
become a master at setting beach glass. Setting beach glass is
exceptionally difficult, probably more difficult than any gemstone,
but it would not matter if you are asked to handle large emerald? You
may have actual skills, but mentally and emotionally you will not be
ready for the task.

I can teach how to solder in half an hour, but nobody can learn in
half an hour. The process of mastering anything is the process of
convincing himself/herself that one can actually do it. The exercises
designed not to teach but to build confidence. There is very little
to know about soldering. It is all about overcoming fear of flame
and developing hand to eye coordination.

The stimuli of the process is the feedback ( metal response to your
action ). We practice to recognize that feedback and react to it.
Different metal would give you different feedback. So you training
yourself to respond to wrong things by practicing on substitutions.
That is true about soldering, stone setting, and almost everything
else. Some substitutions are better than others, but they all fail in
one respect. They do not teach confidence.

Leonid Surpin

34

I have only been fabricating jewelry for about 3 years and started
soldering on cooper as a means of learning. Because I wanted to
accomplish a number of things. 1) how did the flame react just
starting up the torch and what to look at when the flame touched the
metal. 2) how the flux reacted to the heat. 3) what colors to look
for when you are close to the soldering temperature.

I did this with the realization that when I started on other metals
it would change. But the cooper was just an inexpensive step. Yes, it
took some time to learn how to solder silver and when I can afford
gold, I will have to start over and hope to find some help then. But
starting with cooper taught me how the flame, flux and solder all
reacted to begin with.

Lynn

35

Hi Jamie,

Silver isn't that expensive, so long as the user has a crucible
and enough heat to re-melt it. With a bit of care, the same silver
could be used over and over again. Silver does have a very
particular fragility that has to belearnt. I don't think it matters
how much non-precious soldering someone has done - when they first
use silver, it's a very sharp learning curve.

My first attempt at soldering precious metals was to solder two tin
bronze strips onto a piece of .999 silver, then solder that onto
another piece of tin bronze, which had a piece of tin bronze and
sterling mokume gane.

I was using a Smith Micro, and the main problem I had was holding
the parts togetherā€¦ I had a teacher on hand to tell me what devices
I could use to manipulate the components.

It was either sink or swim, I just threw myself into it (how unlike
me :smiley: ).

Regards Charles A.

36

Mr Surpin, I have never doubted my confidence. Some things I know I
can do and do well. Some things, well, I either havenā€™t tried it
yet, or didnā€™t want to. I know my limitations, but they do not deter
either my confidence, nor dim the experience I gain with each new
piece that I fabricate. You state: "We practice to recognize that
feedback and react to it.

Different metal would give you different feedback. So you training
yourself to respond to wrong things by practicing on
substitutions."

No one does not, in my humble opinion. I recognize that the copper
works different from the silver I use. Someday I hope to be able to
step up to the plate with gold. Iā€™m in no hurry. I do not fear the
flame, but I do have a healthy respect for it at the same time.

but mentally and emotionally you will not be ready for the task.

I am baffled as to how you can say this to me, having never met me
nor seen my work. I know my abilities, and am honest when asked to
do something that may be beyond my present abilities, to say, no I
cannot do that at this point. Once again, when I think I am ready or
up to it, I will have a healthy respect for the material, but
please, donā€™t imply that mentally and emotionally I will not be
preparedā€¦ I say respectfully: peace

37 
Please be reasonable. Diamonds are almost always cut close to the
standard shape. Wack them with a steel hammer or tool or have them
touching and they will scream and break. Otherrwise they are very
nice and fun to set.

I realize that it is not done commercially, but in diamond setting
there is an additional step called ā€œsquaringā€, otherwise I agree that
round diamonds are easier to set than other stones. However, fancies
and especially baguettes are way more difficult.

Leonid Surpin

38 
Can you provide suggestions for budding goldsmiths that "cannot"
afford gold at today's prices. An Australian apprentice earns
$7.50 an hour.

I started by melting my wifeā€™s wedding ring, making it into wire, and
started doing things. If you are not married, your parents might have
some jewellery that they do not need. When you get on your way, you
will make them a better stuff. Believe it or not, that is a very
common way of starting, at least in Russia.

Stay away from casting! Fabricate things by hand.

Manufactures like casting because it is cheaper per unit. In case of
individual pieces it is much cheaper to fabricate. A lot of students
buying ready made chains, setting, locks, and etc. Do you know what
you pay per gram buying it ? Do not copy pros. For them it is time
saver, but students are in different position. Even pros would
benefit from fabricating, but that is a different subject.

Do you know how many things can be made from couple of feet of wire?
The biggest difference in working with precious metals as compared
to other metals, is that precious metals are not available in any
size and form. It is probably not true anymore, but when I started,
we treasured every tiniest piece of scrap. Everything was used for
something. Do you know where term ā€œfindingsā€ come from? Look it up.

I am curios. Do you have any of my DVDs. If you donā€™t, you should. I
do not mean previews. Previews are just that. The useful info in on
DVDs themselves. When you watch it, pay attention how little metal
it take to create a form, if proper technique is used. And the metal
itself is square wire, or flattened square wire, which is very easy
to make, even with the most primitive rolling mill.

Leonid Surpin

39

Leonid,

I realize that it is not done commercially, but in diamond setting
there is an additional step called "squaring", otherwise I agree
that round diamonds are easier to set than other stones. However,
fancies and especially baguettes are way more difficult.

You are very right, setting fancy cuts of diamonds is harder than
rounds. But fancy diamonds cause much less distress and constriction
in my back end for me than coloured stones.

More fancy cuts under my belt than round ones.

Maybe Iā€™m just weird.

jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand

40 
I started by melting my wife's wedding ring, making it into wire,
and started doing things.

Far out ?!?!?!? If I did that Iā€™d get my nuts served to me on a bed
of rice :open_mouth: My wife is definitely not that forgiving :wink:

Stay away from casting! Fabricate things by hand.

Why not just do everything, then if a job comes up that demands it
youā€™ll at least know where to start?

Basically I like to know how to do lots of different things, be a
jack-of-all. Iā€™m just starting out with jewellery as a craft, so Iā€™m
trying to give myself the best of all possible chances without
limiting myself.

I like to make rings by hand for practical reasons, but I like to
cast ingots and features, then add them to my work.

In case of individual pieces it is much cheaper to fabricate.

Well not always, as itā€™s been pointed out in other posts, it can
take a lot of time to fabricate individual sculptural pieces that
have been carved in wax first. Time is money, unless youā€™re making
jewellery thatā€™s not for sale.

A lot of students buying ready made chains, setting, locks, and
etc. Do you know what you pay per gram buying it ?

I donā€™t intend to buy ready made anything, but I have started to
scavenge old jewellery, stuff that my wife will let me re-model.

Have no idea how much per gram to buy ready made, but would hazard a
guess that it would include a manufacturers overhead.

Do you know how many things can be made from couple of feet of
wire? The biggest difference in working with precious metals as
compared to other metals, is that precious metals are not available
in any size and form. It is probably not true anymore, but when I
started, we treasured every tiniest piece of scrap. Everything was
used for something. Do you know where term "findings" come from?
Look it up.

Probably a lot, but Iā€™m not using a wire precious wire at the
moment, it just hasnā€™t come up in the class yet. I do have a side
project making replica Anglo-Saxon tin bronze coil rings, and am
drawing an ingot of tin bronze into 2mm wire.

I am curios. Do you have any of my DVDs. If you don't, you should.

Iā€™m saving up to by metal and a precision gas torch (the one that
metls open crucibles). I probably will buy your DVDs, but it will be
in another 2 1/2 years. Currently Iā€™m learning Australian industry
standards and practices, I need to focus on those, so I can pass my
tests.

I do not mean previews. Previews are just that. The useful info in
on DVDs themselves. When you watch it, pay attention how little
metal it take to create a form, if proper technique is used. And
the metal itself is square wire, or flattened square wire, which is
very easy to make, even with the most primitive rolling mill.

I need to get a rolling mill, the cheapest Iā€™ve seen is about $600
AUD. I was tempted to buy these plans
The McDonald Mill : Anvilfire Plans Review and make the
rolling mill, as it would serve a few other functions. A bit worried
about losing fingers though.

A friend made one http://fenrisforge.com, and finds it a treat to
use.

Regards Charles A.