PMC tools

The point is, that if you follow the guidelines for firing your
pieces in metal clay they are as durable as 18K gold. There is
really more to it than just the firing temp or time. The thickness
of the clay is also a factor as well as the construction. It's
true-- if your rings are 5mm thick or so, they'll hold up better.
But, sorry, even a silver clay piece fired to the max will never
be a durable as 18k gold. It cannot be, because fine silver is
very soft. 

My statements are based on making rings that are fairly typical in
width and thickness-- maybe twice as thick and wide as a typical
gold ring (making the cross section 4 times the typical gold ring),
and not at all out of date, unless you are saying things have
changed in the last couple months. I stand by my statement that it
is wrong to sell pieces that are not at the maximum possible density.

Noel

And, again, I must repeat *this*is*not*true*. Well, it is true
that manufacturer *says* this. I bought PMC3 for a workshop,
believing what the manufacturers instructions said. I fired the
class' pieces strictly according to instructions. Rings snapped
into pieces in people's fingers. If you want strength, you *must*
fire higher and longer. 

I don’t intend to get into another battle like we have had in the
past about metal clay, but I don’t understand why you state so
strongly that “thisisnottrue*”.

Like I said in my post I have made literally hundreds of rings (not
by torch firing though, I have used kilns and other similar devices
to fire the pieces) and none of them have been brittle.

This is hard experience. This is not what the manufacturer says.
This is experience and none of these rings have been brittle, they
cannot be snapped into pieces.

I still think you are basing your opinion on metal clay from years
ago before the many improvements had been made to produce the metal
clay we are working with today.

Others have stated that fine silver cannot be as strong as 18K gold,
but this is what testing has determined. I didn’t just make that up.

Others stated that if a ring is 5mm thick it might be more durable.
My ring shanks are not 5mm thick. Heavens!

Fine silver can be work hardened, so by tumbling and working the
finished piece, it is very strong.

I repeat, what I am saying is from experience, and not just my own,
but many metal clay artists can tell you the same thing.

I have a hard time dealing with that seemingly comes out
of nowhere compared to that comes from hard experience
with the material.

However, I love my Orchid friends and don’t want to offend anyone,
but it would be nice if we could be logical about this issue.

Laura

I don't intend to get into another battle like we have had in the
past about metal clay, but I don't understand why you state so
strongly that "*this*is*not*true*". 

Well, simply because my experience, and that of others, is that it
is not true.

I still think you are basing your opinion on metal clay from years
ago 

No, it is from experience as recent as last month, with PMC3.

Fine silver can be work hardened, so by tumbling and working the
finished piece, it isvery strong. 

Agreed, it is stronger than untumbled, but not enough stronger,
especially if not fired to max. And the manufacturer’s instructions
don’t say “…be sure to tumble”.

I repeat, what I am saying is from experience, and not just my
own, but many metal clay artists can tell you the same thing. 

ditto

I have a hard time dealing with that seemingly comes
out of nowhere compared to that comes from hard
experience with the material.. 

I beg your pardon? My experience is not “out of nowhere”. I’ve been
using metal clay since the first moment it was available in this
country.

However, I love my Orchid friends and don't want to offendanyone,
but it would be nice if we could be logical about this issue. 

Logical is practically my middle name. We can agree that we are
convinced of irreconcilable conclusions, so let’s not make it ad
hominem.

Noel

Laura,

... none of them have been brittle. This is hard experience. This
is not what the manufacturer *says*. This is experience... 

I’m not sure what “hard” evidence means. Your experience is
anecdotal evidence, not scientific evidence (and there a scientific
field called metallurgy with PhD’s and everything :wink:

I repeat, what I am saying is from experience, and not just my
own, but many metal clay artists can tell you the same thing. 

I totally accept that your methods and processes work for you (and
perhaps many others), but that doesn’t make it scientific evidence.

Others have stated that fine silver cannot be as strong as 18K
gold, but this is what testing has determined. I didn't just make
that up. 

Uh oh!!! “Others” that you refer to is Jim Binnion. I don’t know if
Jim has university degrees in metallurgy, but he has repeatedly
demonstrated extensive knowledge in this area, and is considered an
expert in metal knowledge. He can (and does) cite scientific
evidence to support his statements. I sure wouldn’t be going up
against him with “… testing has determined.”

I have a hard time dealing with that seemingly comes
out of nowhere compared to that comes from hard
experience with the material. 

There’s no doubt that there are some (or many) on Orchid whose
opinion is that any type of metal clay art is an inferior art as
compared to traditional metalworking art. Metal clay artists
(rightly, in my opinion) can take offense. In reality, they are two
different arts. But, if metal clay artists try fighting an “art
battle” on a metallurgy equality level, they are letting the
traditionalists win.

Again Laura, I totally accept that your methods and processes work
for you, and I respect your art. However, I continue to disagree that
the scientific evidence supports your metallurgical claims.

Jamie

Others have stated that fine silver cannot be as strong as 18K
gold, but this is what testing has determined. I didn't just make
that up. 

Please provide any reference to this “test”

That fine silver is softer and less durable than 18k is not an
opinion or a “by my experience” but a measurable property of the
materials. Annealed 18K yellow gold has a tensile strength of 520
Nmm^2. Fine silver has a tensile strength of 172 Nmm^2. These numbers
come from Mark Grimwade’s “Introduction to Precious Metals” pages 32
and 56. The PMC Guild website cites tests at

http://pmcguild.com/download/Tech_Data/Tensile_Strength_Comparisons.pdf

in that test the original PMC has a tensile strength of 63 Nmm^2,
PMC+ is 116 Nmm^2 and PMC3 is 135 Nmm^2. This means that the
strongest PMC material is 3.8 times less strong than 18k Yellow
gold.

So again any test data that you can provide to prove your statement
would be appreciated.

Fine silver can be work hardened, so by tumbling and working the
finished piece, it is very strong. 

Again quite strong compared to what. It will be softer than a
similar piece made from sterling or 18k. Also the hard surface from
tumbling is at best only a few microns thick so it will wear away in
use as a ring in very short order. Again this is scientific, measured
data not guestimates or hearsay.

I know you will probably not respond to me and likely I will again
be vilified in the PMC discussion groups for making these statements
of fact. But as long as the folks in the PMC community insist on
attributing material properties to PMC that are just not true these
discussions will continue to arise.

Jim
James Binnion Metal Arts

Fine silver can be work hardened, so by tumbling and working the?
finished piece, it is very strong. 

I have to disagree with the above statement. PMC pieces have not
been very strong - Many bend? and break during normal wear - all of
the items have been made recently with new forms of metal clay
products - usually PMC3

I repeat, what I am saying is from experience, and not just my
own, but many metal clay artists can tell you the same thing.

I have found that many metal clay artists seem to dislike any
criticism of the product.

I have a hard time dealing with that seemingly comes
out of nowhere compared to that comes from hard
experience with the material.

Could it be that some may not want to hear any negative comments?

Noel, you are not alone in your opinion.

Hi Jim,

You have made a very good point. I will have to look into this
further.

Laura
Laura H. Hastings
Eclectica Jewelry
Tucson, Arizona

I’d like to jump in here, well… into the fire.

Fine silver is…fine silver. Easier to dent, scratch, bend, form
etc. than sterling. I do not recommend that my students make rings
or bangle/cuff bracelets from metal clay. It doesn’t matter how many
metal clayers are doing so, the end result is the same… a piece of
jewelry that will not stand the test of time/durability.

That being said, I do make metal clay rings, but I make them very
heavy, giving them a chance of longtime survival, (but, then, I
always make hefty work). I am a texture nut, but I try to limit my
texture to the bezel of a ring, or at least to the areas that will
not be near the palm of the hand. That way the textures will not be
erased by abrasion. I only use PMC3 for rings and I fire at 1650F
(900C) for two hours. I do tumble polish, but that really only forms
a ‘skin’ that is burnished on these pieces.

Most of the time I make fabricated rings made using traditional
jewelry making techniques and, if my design includes it, add
elements made using metal clay, either soldered or riveted to the
fabricated elements. I would do the same for bangles/cuff bracelets,
but in this case, never make them solely of precious metals clay.

I am not familiar with bronze or copper clay use, but my sense, at
least with the bronze, is that the material, though less dense than
milled metals would be quite durable. I am more concerned about the
allergenic qualities of these metals.

Linda Kaye-Moses

Dear Orchid responders:

Thank you all for the informative responses to my request for more
on PMC tools. The was/is incredibly well
documented. I glean from the various posts that my best bet, should
I want to have this product included in my line of Jewelry, is to
read some books, take a class, buy a kiln after I ascertain if I like
working with silver clay and find out how expensive these products
are. In this economy it is prudent to weigh expense over profit even
if the experience of creating jewelry with any media is a joy for
me. I have read all of Tim McCreight’s other books on silversmith and
jewelry design. I would assume his book on silver clay creation i.e.
jewelry is probably down to earth and well written. If there are any
other books that anyone would feel confident to recommend…please
do.

I am reading some exchanges on the site that my request for
may have initiated and they have some element of
conflict. I hope this did not occur because of something that I have
said? This is an absolutely wonderful site.

thank you everyone,
regards, Barbara

There's no doubt that there are some (or many) on Orchid whose
opinion is that any type of metal clay art is an inferior art as
compared to traditional metalworking art. 

Granted, as in all artistic expressions, there is inferior work
thrown together in metal clay and called art but I do sincerely
believe that wonderful ART is being produced in metal clay by some
very talented ARTISTS. Metal Clay Art is a different craft presented
as jewelry, but not an inferior art. I remember when I went to art
school and made my own photographic emulsions how offended I was
when someone said photography was inferior to painting. I really
enjoyed painting, but there was something about the way I could
manipulate light with a lens that touched me more than applying
paint. Just as today there is something about the fluid feel of metal
clay that excites my hands. I am not that sensitive young girl
anymore so I do not find offense in this attitude, I just don’t
understand it. Often the process of working in metal clay uses
traditional metalworking.

If I hammer, rivet, or solder my piece does it suddenly become a less
inferior art? l don’t think choosing to work in a style or medium
that excites you makes you less of an artist or your choice less of
an Art. I think experience, dedication, and vision will determine
that fate. I hope the Orchid community, that feels metal clay art is
an inferior art, would take another look at the process metal clay
artists use. I was told by one of my “traditional only” friends that
it is only a “short cut” to metalwork. Recently, after a visit to my
studio she changed her mind.

Jascha Sonis

I do make metal clay rings, but I make them very heavy, giving
them a chance of longtime survival 

My solution is to make ringsout of MC as metal models for casting.
Same great look, no strength issue.

Noel

Novices in any media often get mistaken ideas about the media, its
properties, potentials, and limitations. Lots of misis
passed around about many (even all!) media. It is worse for newer
media like metal clays and it is our responsibility to correct the
misinformed, but keep in mind the misinformed person is usually
repeating something someone else told them. That many “traditional”
metal smiths have denigrated and insulted metal clay workers over
the years makes this more difficult for everyone. Metal clay artisans
have more difficulty accepting anything said by those they perceive
as being in the group of metal workers who absolutely refuse to
accept that this “new” media has any value.

Metal clays have both advantages and limitations. No, they are not
as strong as pieces fabricated from sheet and wire. They are not even
quite as strong as cast pieces, though when well constructed and
fired they do approach this strength. Silver clay is not the
“best” choice for a ring that needs to be durable or for a cuff
bracelet. However, if they are well made, with sufficient thickness
and proper sintering, they may be acceptable for many purposes. Face
it, unlike gold jewelry, most silver jewelry is a fashion item and
people wear it occasionally and don’t expect to wear it day after
day, year after year. For the most part, this type of jewelry isn’t
trying to be wedding rings or the heirloom jewelry people expect to
pass onto future generations. So arguing (from either extreme) that
it is “as good as” or ought to be made as good as karat gold jewelry
with high end gemstones is specious.

Mary Ellin D’Agostino, PhD
www.medacreations.com
Sr. Teacher, PMC Connection
Certified Artisan, PMC Guild

most silver jewelry is a fashion item and people wear it
occasionally and don't expect to wear it day after day, year after
year. 

While I thought the rest of your post was excellent in regards metal
clay, as I sit here wearing a silver ring that never comes off, with
a daughter who wears a silver chain with pendants which she never
takes off, I have to take exception to this statement ! Actually, if
you walk through any high school or college you will find that many
younger ladies prefer the look of silver, and wear it constantly. A
few of us “mature” ladies do too :wink:

Given that in our case that means the jewelry goes gardening,
swimming in pool with chlorine, swimming in ocean, cooking, etc. - I
would say that silver can, when made properly, hold up to extended
wear!

Beth Wicker
Three Cats and a Dog Design Studio

http://www.bethwicker.etsy.com
http://bethwicker.ganoksin.com/blogs/

Face it, unlike gold jewelry, most silver jewelry is a fashion
item and people wear it occasionally and don't expect to wear it
day after day, year after year. For the most part, this type of
jewelry isn't trying to be wedding rings or the heirloom jewelry
people expect to pass onto future generations. So arguing (from
either extreme) that it is "as good as" or ought to be made as good
as karat gold jewelry with high end gemstones is specious. 

I have to disagree with the statement below. I love Sterling Silver
jewelry, I have worn mine every day, for many years without
problems. I also have many heirloom pieces from both family and
friends which have been handed down through generations. What I
won’t wear, nor sell is plated silver jewelry.

The fact is, some love Silver, others love Gold –

I don’t think it’s a good idea to wear any kind of jewelry in a pool
with chlorine, ocean gardening or cooking. None of it will stand up.
Just don’t do it if you love your jewelry!

most silver jewelry is a fashion item... ....I have to take
exception to this statement !... 

I did say most, not all. Yes, lots of people like silver and wear
it all the time, but how many wear the same item day after day, year
after year. With the exception of wedding rings and other items that
hold particular personal meaning, most jewelry is chosen to
compliment clothing or to make a statement and is changed to suit the
clothing or intended meaning.

Mary Ellin D’Agostino, PhD
www.medacreations.com
Sr. Teacher, PMC Connection
Certified Artisan, PMC Guild

Hello,

Mary Ellen D’ has expressed very well the general response to metal
clay from the traditional metalsmithing community. Many, though not
all, traditional metalsmiths have responded negatively to metal clay
and its uses. Many, including me, have been working with the
material since it first became available in the U.S. in 1996, and
have found it to be as exciting and intriguing a material as those
who use it have found Argentium to be. New is not necessarily to be
denigrated, but warrants investigation.

Yes, metal clay has its useful parameters, just as with any other
art material. And Mary Ellen described its comparisons to other metal
forms quite well.

As a studio jeweler, however, I would disagree with her description
of the uses of silver jewels. It is my intention, whether using
metal clay or not, that my pieces will be considered heirloom jewels,
to be worn, daily if desired, and handed down to successive
generations. My work is durable, again with or without metal clay,
and fits my intentions. It is the designing of a piece and the
selection of materials, that determines whether a piece will survive
down the years.

If jewelers, metal clayers included, design pieces with durability
in mind, as well as aesthetic value, then those pieces will last and
be valued longterm.

Linda Kaye-Moses

I did say *most,* not all. Yes, lots of people like silver and
wear it all the time, but how many wear the same item day after
day, year after year. 

A lot of people seem to take pride in never removing their jewelry,
regardless of what metal. The point really is, we should be making
things as though they will be worn that way, or, we need to make sure
the potential buyer knows that the piece should not be worn
constantly… Jewelry made of fine silver in general, metal clay even
more so, is less durable than other metals. This is enough of a
concern without pieces that are not fired to their maximum strength
being sold, even with disclosure!

Noel

I agree with you - I have a couple of rings I never take off. One is
the first piece of silver jewellery I ever made, twenty-two years
ago; another is a pilgrim ring brought back from Jerusalem around a
hundred years ago - though I haven’t worn it continuously since then
:wink:

Both are doing fine. My partner wears his fathers gold ring, with a
shield pattern on the face. It’s relatively old - a good fifty years
I think - but by no means antique and all the pattern has worn off
the face and I have had to reshape it a couple of times for him.

Some people are much tougher on their jewellery than others.

sophie

Now that I have good advice relating to PMC, I would like to read
about the product in terms of techniques and the rigors of using it.
I love my Tim McCreight books relating to metal work and so would
like to get something that he has written or edited relating to PMC.
So far I have found three books_: PMC Technic, Working with Precious
Metal Clay and PMC Decade._ Any suggestions on the best books to
purchase? Again, thanks to all who responded to PMC tools and the web
site post. I will respond to some who offered a follow up with them
as soon as school winds down.

Regards, Barbara