Pave setting instruction

A better example of how this technique is done and what Leonid
means, can be seen in next video.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7z4i 

Nice video. Here is another from the same guy, where he is a little
more open of his technique.

One can clearly see that stones are a bit larger than seats, but
pressed in without a problem. Also, he rounds his beads only for
show. Looks easy and it is, after one learns to drill precise holes.
Technique is very laconic, no extra movements and no unnecessary
metal. I bet he can do 60 stones in hour, charge 5 bucks per stone,
and everybody would be glad to pay it.

Leonid Surpin

The video is terrible! The worst of all is that the guy, while
looking very professorial, has no idea of what pave or even stone
setting is.... 

If stone is held by beads, you doing it wrong! If a book or a video
tells you that beads are needed to hold the stone, toss it into the
garbage.Beads are for DECORATION ONLY. This brings us to the subject
of microscope in setting. If beads are decoration, that what do we
need microscope for? The answer is that we do not need it. To
decorate the surface we have to see it, in full. Microscope hinders
it… Leonid, I worry that you keep your feelings bottled up inside
too much, and that you are a little too open minded with your
opinions. Sometimes it’s better to take a stand, right or wrong, and
just tell us how you really feel. ; )

Mark

I was just watching the too brief video on pave’ setting. I quickly
saw one style of setting. It looked like this. vOv-vOv-vOv;

Remember that under each diamond was a series of “V” cuts. This
style is named “Cut-Down”. That is, instead of “Bright-Cutting” a
long groove in the along the edge of the metal, the setter literally
’cuts down’ to the edge of the metal. No raised-beads are used!

For a bit of history;

“Salvidor Dali” made some jewellery and his setter used the very
same technique. The photograph shown is my interpretation of this
style of setting…all done by hand using a Flat graver #39…:slight_smile:

Gerry!

Beads hold the diamond. You have to have metal above the girdle
holding the stone down so it stays in the seat, even if it’s a
perfectly fitted seat. Mr. Surpin is right in that beads are
decorative, they are also crucial to keeping the stone in place. A
diamond in a setting held only by “interference” is also known as an
“empty setting” because that’s what it will be when the stone falls
out. As for a microscope, it’s nothing more than a great loupe or
optivisor. Use it like that. There’s a reason why the Michael
Jordan’s of stone setting use microscopes. Think about it, you can
do better detail work AND be mindful of the overall look of the
piece, just lean your head to look around the microscope to see the
piece as a whole, or just zoom out.

TO THOSE WANTING TO LEARN PAVE:

Please check out Jura and Alexandre. They both have schools
specifically to teach pave, bead n’ bright etc. Look at there work,
then look at Mr. Surpins pave. You decide who knows more. Here’s the
links to there websites:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7z4z
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7z50

Beads hold the diamond. You have to have metal above the girdle
holding the stone down so it stays in the seat, even if it's a
perfectly fitted seat. Mr. Surpin is right in that beads are
decorative, they are also crucial to keeping the stone in place. 

Very common view and also very wrong! In my previous post I
provided link to the video. Study it and understand the essence of
stone stetting.

Leonid Surpin

Leonid:

One can clearly see that stones are a bit larger than seats, but
pressed in without a problem. 

In the video you referenced, one can really see the stones being
pushed in. it’s as though the seating is clay and the stone
squooshes into it! I don’t get the mechanics here. is some part of
the setting giving way? And what holds the stone in?? I think you had
mentioned clicking into place, in which there would have to be some
sort of undercut. If you have the time, perhaps you can post a simple
sketch/diagram of the set stone. a cross section, side view. So we
can see the elements of the stone in relation to the elements of the
setting. Many thanks!

Janet in Jerusalem

Hello,

when prongs are holding a stone, it"s called prong setting. When
beads are securing a stone, it’s is beadsetting. In a pave setting,
stones are push= ed and twisted in place WHITOUT any other material
securing the stone. In the beadsetting technique, the stone drops
(more or less) into place and therefor beads need to be cut in order
to hold the stone. Pave setting Is a very precise and accurate work.
The beads are raised in order to create more glitter between the
stones when a high polish is applied on those beads. One can use the
beads to secure the stones but then again it’s called beadsetting.
Both, bead setting and pave setting are demanding very high skills
of a setter but they are completly different and not comparable. I do
understand that one can get mixed up between both arts of settings
but it whould be wise to keep them separated in order to give
customers a clear view of what technique is used.

No hard feelings to anybody but Mr Surpin is correct concerning pave
setting.

Have fun and enjoy
Pedro

In the video you referenced, one can really see the stones being
pushed in. it's as though the seating is clay and the stone
squooshes into it! I don't get the mechanics here. is some part of
the setting giving way? 

Any metal has 2 types of deformation, - one called elastic and
second one called plastic. The difference is that while in the zone
of elastic deformation, once force stops, metal springs back to
original shape. To change metal permanently, limits of elastic
deformation have to be exceeded.

The thing about technique in the video is that holes are drilled
smaller than stones, but the difference is tiny. Few microns only. If
one observes carefully, stones are pressed slowly to allow metal to
compress and after stone is seated, a minute amount will spring back
sealing the stone in. When beads are formed, it compresses metal
further with some part flowing over the stone and increases holding
power. After beads are formed, they can be cut away without any risk
of losing the stone. I do not advocate cutting beads away. They are
important as decorative elements.

Another way to understand the technique is to consider how one
drills square holes. First round hole is drilled and than hole is
squared by pressing square rod through the hole to remove corners.
From this point of view, diamond can be considered as sizing drill
bit, shaping hole to it’s individual dimensions.

A word of warning. This does not work if diamonds are of inferior
quality. Clarity should be at least VS1 or higher. VS2 could work
either, but probably with some breakage.

Leonid Surpin

Leonid-

Are you seriously saying that the tools that we jewelers are working
with can be controlled to within “a few microns”? Certainly none of
our measuring devices are that accurate, except perhaps our hands
and eyes. My interpretation of your statement is that it is more of
a feeling, and can be learned only through lots of trial and error,
and is really more of an art than a science. One rarely hears
artists using the word “micron”. that is more of a scientist’s word.

Here in the US the terms “bead set” and “pave set” are used pretty
much interchangeably, perhaps because we just don’t know the
difference. But if they end up looking the same, and are equally
secure, is there actually any real difference? The shape of the seat
in which the stone sits, the amount of space between the stone and
the wall.these will be invisible to the client, and honestly not
appreciated by most of them.Do you consider one to be superior to
the other?

Only a small portion of the people on this forum will be at the
technical level at which you represent yourself to be, and while I
have appreciated reading your posts, and think that I have learned
from them, sometimes your attitude seems to be supercilious,
insulting, narrow-minded. This can lessen my enjoyment of the
contribution that you are making. I am glad that you continue to
post, but the “Old World Master here to teach these whippersnappers
a thing or two” shtick gets old.

I can’t help but wonder whose work you actually consider to be
“good”.

Catherine Galloway

Are you seriously saying that the tools that we jewelers are
working with can be controlled to within "a few microns"? Certainly
none of our measuring devices are that accurate, except perhaps our
hands and eyes. My interpretation of your statement is that it is
more of a feeling, and can be learned only through lots of trial
and error, and is really more of an art than a science. One rarely
hears artists using the word "micron". that is more of a
scientist's word. 

Few points: Pave technique and thread technique ( bead setting is
another name ) can very well be interchangeable. Simply in pave,
which done with small stones, there is not much metal to secure it in
any other way.

The second point is about measuring in microns. Whether in
goldsmithing or other fields, this is accomplished not via direct
measurement, but by setting up processes which lead to desired
measurement. I know it sounds cryptic, so I will elaborate on it.
Before I begin I have to warn that some math will be included. With
complete appreciation for the heart palpitations caused by mentioning
math, there is no other way to demonstrate the method, so please
endure it.

The question is how to drill a hole, which will be smaller than a
given stone only by a few microns, without any actual measurements.

Let’s us take the most difficult case of setting 0.01 ct. stones. I
have seen pave done with 0.005 ct. Technique is the same, but done
under microscope. That is the case where use of microscope is
justified.

Diameter of 0.01 ct. is approximately 1.3mm. Frankly, we don’t even
have to know that. We start by selecting a bur which is visually
slightly smaller. It may be 1.2mm but we do not actually care. We
enlarge the hole with such a bur and do a trial fit. We observe that
hole is too small and enlarge it by using the same bur, but tilting
is slightly of vertical and try again until it fits just right.

What does it mean “just right” ? Let’s assume our stone is exactly
1300 ( 1.3 mm ) microns in diameter. We are looking to create a hole
with 1250 microns in diameter, 25 microns per side difference. We can
create such hole without actual measurement by observing that if we
tilt the stone slightly off horizontal, we should be able to insert
the stone into the hole in this tilted position. We can further
observe that the closer diameter of the hole to the diameter of the
stone, the less of the tilt requires. So now we have actual method of
measuring diameter of the hole using the stone itself, and the
gradations are degrees of the tilt off horizontal. We can
mathematically determine the angle of the tilt, which gives us 1250
microns diameter.

We need to recall that in right triangle, a hypotenuse squared is
equal to sum of squares of catheti. So we restate our problem as
follows,- hypotenuse squared is 1690000 ( stone diameter squared ) =
1562500 ( desired hole diameter squared ) + x ( amount of tilt off
horizontal squared ). We rewrite equation for x, which becomes x =
169000 - 1562500 = 127500. By taking square root of the value we
arrive at 357 microns physical tilt. This value is still useless to
us because we cannot measure it, but if we convert it to degrees,
the problem will be solved. Let’s recall that sine of an angle in
right triangle is relation of opposing side to adjacent. In our case
it is 357/1250 = 0.2856, or converting to degrees it is approximately
16 degrees. This we can measure by simply eyeballing it. Some
training may be required.

So all we have to do is to keep enlarging the hole until diamond
sits with 16 degrees inclination. This gives us 25 microns per side
difference. By using mathematical modeling, we reduced something
which is almost impossible to accomplish in goldsmith shop, to
simple observation of angle of the tilt.

In conclusion, I do want to help readers of this forum who find my
post supercilious and/or offensive in any other way. You can setup a
rule in your mail application, which scans incoming emails and
deletes it, if some string of characters is encountered. You can set
up such rule using my name as search string. That way you can keep
enjoying emails by others, without subjecting yourself to
superciliousness of mine.

Leonid Surpin

Thanks Leonid!

Two questions:

  1. Can this be done ONLY with diamonds? If diamonds lower than VS1
    are liable to break, then I would guess that you couldn’t do this
    with other stones (?)…in which case it wouldn’t be a ‘common
    misunderstanding’ to think that beads hold stones in (since most
    stones are not diamonds)…:-)…

  2. Does all this only pertain to pave settings (e.g., and not to
    bead settings)?

  3. Can this be done with the harder precious metals? Hard to imagine
    pressing a stone into e.g., platinum…:-)…

Thanks for your input,
Janet in Jerusalem

I can't help but wonder whose work you actually consider to be
"good". 

In this thread alone, we have already been supplied with two videos
which Leonid has said he considers good work…:-)…:

Janet in Jerusalem

We need to recall that in right triangle, a hypotenuse squared is
equal to sum of squares of catheti. So we restate our problem as
follows,- hypotenuse squared is 1690000 ( stone diameter squared )
= 1562500 ( desired hole diameter squared ) + x ( amount of tilt
off horizontal squared ). We rewrite equation for x, which becomes
x = 169000 - 1562500 = 127500. 

Sorry to say that the 6th line in the 7th paragraph does not
compute. Lionid - either you math or your typing is off. Barbara

It does seem to me that whereas the majority of posters on this
forum are interested in helping others find their path through this
medium of working precious metals. there is a persistent lone voice
telling us to believe his truth as being the one and only way.

His refusal to hear that his truth can only ever be his own, is a
sad song played over and over to numerous different screenplays.

My best teachers, knew my awareness and learning was based on what I
could experience and consequently understand…not what they could
tell me I should believe. I am deeply grateful for their recognition
of the power of humility in sharing their knowledge. One man’s
attitude on how he shares knowledge speaks much more to me about his
work than he seems prepared to acknowledge. Technical competence is
only part of the piece. something often vehemently denied by those
lacking further abilities.

Learning how to create great works has very little to do with taking
seriously a pedantic intellectual needing to defend his castle.

A heartfelt thanks to the vast majority of posters to this forum who
are interested in furthering the knowledge of others.

1. Can this be done ONLY with diamonds? If diamonds lower than VS1
are liable to break, then I would guess that you couldn't do this
with other stones (?)...in which case it wouldn't be a 'common
misunderstanding' to think that beads hold stones in (since most
stones are not diamonds)..:-). 

A stone should be able to survive some pressure. That does not
necessarily means diamond, sapphires are pretty durable too, but it
does exclude stones like emeralds. Also cut is important. It should
never be attempted with razor thin girdles. As far as beads, their
importance in securing stone grows as the size of the stone
increases. Another metric we can use is how much of stone is covered
by metal after setting. In 0.01 ct. ( 1300 microns ) 50 microns
tolerance is approximately 4.5 % of stone diameter. That is quite
secure. But if we go to 1 ct. ( 6500 microns ), the same 50 microns
are less than 1% of stone diameter, which is somewhat iffy. In this
case beads could play integral role in securing stone. So size of the
stone should always be considered. The most interesting question
about setting is how much metal does it take to secure a stone? Than
any technique becomes of making that much metal available. > > 2.
Does all this only pertain to pave settings (e.g., and not to > bead
settings)?

The best way to answer this is to say that in small stone pave it is
mandatory. In other application is may be mandatory or optional. The
questions to ask: are there enough metal to raise solid bead? By
raising a bead, - to what degree neighboring metal will be disturbed?
What will happen if I cut off a bead or two by accident? Can beads
survive everyday wear? And etc…

3. Can this be done with the harder precious metals? Hard to
imagine pressing a stone into e.g., platinum...:-). 

Actually, it depends on alloy of platinum. Diamonds are harder than
anything else on Earth. Pressing technique is the only one available
for setting in steel. The key is to proceed slowly.

Leonid Surpin

Leonid,

I see your perspective but I have to ask; ‘If beads are only for
decoration, why is the decoration needed’? Which is more important…
security of the setting or the decoration? Are they equally
important?

Regards, Alastair

Hello Janet,

As long as they are hard enough AND solid, yes you can use other
stones. I’ve seen nice work with sapphires, spinel and other
Now, even knowing that emeralds are tricky, with the right
knowledge, practice and control, one can set pave’s with them. Lots
of stones can be used for pave, even CZ’s.

Don’t be fooled by the hardness of those little stones which are a
way harder then platinum. These little “bitches” ( as an old friend
mentioned them years ago) can withstand a lot of pressure IF (!!)
they are of a good quality. Imagine howmuch pressure you create
concentrated to small surface which is smaller then one milimeter.

Knowing that a lady of 50 Kg on high heels with a surface 0.5cm
creates a pressure of 7.500.000Pa, that’s a lot of pressure! An
elephant of 7000 Kg makes per leg a pressure of 243.000 Pa. Compare
it yourself but don’t go for the practice, that elephant leg will
still hurt you very badly. So that little stone of 1 mm pushing it
with 5kg will go into platinum, why not?

Have fun and enjoy
Pedro

I see your perspective but I have to ask; 'If beads are only for
decoration, why is the decoration needed'? Which is more
important... security of the setting or the decoration? Are they
equally important? 

Of course they are. Beads are very important decorative elements, but
they should not be relied on for holding stone in place. To answer
“why decoration needed”. I used to play with modeling pave using 3d
software. I would model a diamond, which than was replicated on the
surface. it is important to use software capable of rendering using
radiance. I tried different distances, patterns, different lighting,
but it always look kind of dull. Than one day I added beads to the
scene and the difference was striking. When beads are spherical and
well polished, their contribution to the appearance cannot be
over-stated. But in practice when beads are holding the stone, they
are frequently flat and militating of the appearance. Alas, bead
forming is another pedantic subject, so let’s leave it for later.

Leonid Surpin

Learning how to create great works has very little to do with
taking seriously a pedantic intellectual needing to defend his
castle. 
A heartfelt thanks to the vast majority of posters to this forum
who are interested in furthering the knowledge of others. 

I to will get upset at Leonids’ post when he does not want to give
in to new technology. But, I have to totally disagree with the above
two statements.

I have been pave’ setting for 30 years and have gotten very very
useful from this thread. I would love to spend a few
days with Leonid if I could. Do you not think he is interested in
furthering the knowledge of others, just because he is giving
that he thinks is the only way does not make it bad
If you would spend the time to read what he says and
study it without the attitude you might learn something. We still
have not seen the CAD eternity ring like Leonid’s that someone was
going to make. Why not, maybe it can’t be done.

Bill Wismar

Sorry to say that the 6th line in the 7th paragraph does not
compute. Lionid - either you math or your typing is off. 

If you followed explanation with some attention, it should have been
obvious that there is simply a zero is missing. The type should not
detract from the meaning in any way. The third line of the same
paragraph gives correct value, so it should not be much of mental
exertion to figure it out, especially because in preceding text it
was made clear that it represents 1300 squared.

Leonid Surpin