copper. It won't contaminate the pickle, nor will the pickle corrode it.
Haven’t you noticed that your copper tongs etch away after a long
period of time? The tips slowly etch towards foil…
Andy
I fluxed, soldered, pickled, fluxed, soldered, pickled, just like I was supposed to. Getting ready to polish it, every joint along this one structural "spine" element failed...... We surmised, correctly I think, that repeated heatings and picklings changed the chemistry and physical structure of the solder, leaving it brittle.
Welllll Andy…I’m still not convinced. I have pieces that have 10,
even up to 20 solder joins and I pickle routinely after each
soldering. The joins remain perfect! Some of the pieces have been in
use for years even and still no problem. I suspect there may be some
other aspect we are not considering…strength or kind of pickle,
the make of the solder, the amount of heat that one uses when
soldering, the type of flux…something else is contributing to
this problem but I don’t know what.
Cheers from Don at The Charles Belle Studio in SOFL where simple
elegance IS fine jewelry! @coralnut2
Sometimes I see pickle pots in schools labeled gold and silver only and copper and brass only. I always find this funny, as there is no reason to segregate the metals like that in an art school situation
Charles, as you know, this is pretty much standard in classrooms
around the country-- Canada too? On the other hand, I doubt that
hardly any of us who are working have more than one pickle pot.
The answer, of course, is that since pickle strips off copper
oxides, the solution slowly builds up dissolved copper, becoming
increasingly bluer. Pickling copper and brass offers much more copper
up to the solution so that the “copper and brass” pickle pot becomes
quite blue and saturated with copper much more quickly. The “silver
only” pickle pot remains relatively colorless.
Since this is a classroom, where many mistakes will naturally be
made, the pickles are segregated. Should some one mistakingly place
steel tongs in the pickle pot for a long time in a copper saturated
solution of pickle along with someone else’s sterling piece, that
piece would plate in copper. It wouldn’t be ruined, of course, but
would require clean up. Separating the pickles helps to avoid this
dilema and also allows the “silver” pickle to remain active quite a
bit longer.
I couldn’t agree more with you about pickling rarely or at least
only when neccessary. This might be a great time to begin listing
“pickle myths”.
Myth #1: pickle is ruined once touched with steel.
Reality: The electrolytic reaction – the battery-- stops once the
tweezers are removed and the pickle is fine. (Unless the tweezers are
left I for a long period and the iron begins to truly contaminate the
pickle.)
Myth #2: You must always add fresh pickle to compensate for
evaporation.
Reality: Mostly it is only water that evaporates. Raise the pickle
level with water.
One more thing-- that blue/saturated pickle is handy for “strike
plating”. You can oxidize or blacken the recesses in a gold ring by
dabbing on some of this blue pickle with some steel wool into the
recessed area. This copper plates that area. While gold won’t readily
oxidize, copper will. Any plating “slop” can be easily buffed off. I
always keep a little spent/saturated pickle around for instances like
these.
Take care and Happy Holidays. Andy Cooperman
Was the pickle contaminated in some way so that a chemical reaction caused the solder to disintegrate? (Just a thought)
Actually, maybe it was-- I used the pickle to soak a file to sharpen
it a bit. Chemists-- would having some of the copper in the pickle
replaced with steel (iron) make it more corrosive?
Noel
I have changed to titanium soldering tweezers, if you put them in
the pickle they do not contain iron and do not plate on silver, also
they are a lot stiffer at high temps and do not conduct the heat up
tpo your hand during prolonged work.
No good for platinum though.
Tim.
Haven't you noticed that your copper tongs etch away after a long period of time? The tips slowly etch towards foil...
I keep bowls of water by the pickle pots to put the tongs in. Helps
reduce the etching. Difficult part is getting people to put the
tongs in the water instead of leaving them in the pickle or some
where else…
That’s the neat thing about this field, Don: There appear to be no
"right’ answers. If it works for you (and no one is in danger, no
animals harmed and no laws broken) keep on doing it.
In my studio, I simply don’t see any reason to pickle after every
soldering…
Take care and Happy New Year to all.
Andy
Andy,
It’s the classroom situation that is the toughest. We have two
pickle pots, actually one is citric acid for the brass and copper and
the other is pH fixer for the other. I find that the segregation
forces students to be aware of watching what they are putting in the
pickle. The occasional tong I am not concerned, but binding wire is
annoying.
A pickle pot after a week of students is pretty nasty. We have only
one in the private studios though, since the “professionals” are much
easier on the studio’s supplies.
-k
Karen Christians
M E T A L W E R X
50 Guinan St.
Waltham, MA 02451
Ph. 781/891-3854 Fax 3857
http://www.metalwerx.com/
Jewelry/Metalarts School & Cooperative Studio
All,
Another trick for those who have copper plated their silver work of
art by not removing the soft iron binding wire before putting the
piece in the pickle following the last soldering…you can remove
the copper plating by dipping out a bit of the pickle in a pyrex
glass jar and adding a teaspoon of hydrogen perioxide. Place the
piece into this mix and let it set for a few minutes. The surface of
the piece will begin to fizz and the copper will disappear!
Cheers from Don at The Charles Belle Studio in SOFL where simple
elegance IS fine jewelry! @coralnut2
Noel,
Here is what I believe happened. By applying solder to the piece you
set up an electrolytic cell. In this case the sterling parent metal
is more negatively charged (cathode) and the solder due to the zinc
and copper content is more positively charged (anode) and this
little battery sits in a nice warm bath of an electrolyte (pickle)
and proceeds to dissolve the anode into solution and most likely
plated the silver with a fine layer of zinc and copper. The finer
joints would be the most quickly dissolved and the heavy bulky joints
would be less affected but etched none the less.
All cases of combining two metals or two different alloys will set
up one of these cells the only question is how much difference in
potential is developed and how fast the corrosion will occur in the
environment it is in. By placing the cell in warm pickle for a long
period of time you allowed this cell to self-destruct.
James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
All this talk about pickle reminded me of my favorite use for used
pickle.
When soldering copper pieces there is always some of the silver
solder showing no matter how careful I am.
So what I do is after all soldering, texturing and polishing I swish
the piece in warm used pickle while holding it with steel tweezers
or wrapping it loosly in some iron binding wire. This coats
everything in a nice fresh copper plating.
A little light final polish and stone setting leaves me with a piece
that has no silver solder lines showing.
Best wishes for the new year,
Marc
The problem could well lie in contaminants (copper) in the pickle
actually depositing on the metal between soldering processes.
To see how this works, dip a sterling piece in well used pickle with
a pair of steel tweezers and hold it for thirty seconds or so. A
chemical reaction occurs, and the copper in the pickle solution will
plate itself onto the silver. If there are other silver items in the
pickle while this occurs, they will also take on a copper coating.
Theoretically, these kinds of deposits could be interfering with
strong solder joints in the project you have described.
Are you anti-fluxing existing joints when soldering new ones?
We let out pieces air cool, and drop them into a plastic bowl in the
hot pickle to avoid problems. We also change the pickle regularly
because the copper in the sterling alloy leaches into the pickle. We
have accidentally left pieces in the pickle for days (over the
holidays for example) with no damage to solder joints.
We pickle in a crock pot set on low with good old ‘Sparex’ obtained
from Rio Grande. We use only one pickle pot for everything, and
rarely (if ever) have issues with solder joint strength.
Hope your next procedure goes better!
Michael Rogers
M. M. Rogers Design
Albuquerque, NM
Hi Karen,
The occasional tong I am not concerned, but binding wire is annoying.
If the school furnishes the binding wire, you might consider
switching to stainless steel binding wire. It does cost a little
more, but I doubt the amount used in a year would break the bank.
Dave
Dave,
If the school furnishes the binding wire, you might consider switching to stainless steel binding wire. It does cost a little more, but I doubt the amount used in a year would break the bank.
We finally did switch to stainless steel. But we still have two
pickle pots. For a normal week we have up to 50 students attacking
supplies, not counting a weekend workshop. Students are hard on
equipment and there is just no getting around it.
-k
Karen Christians
M E T A L W E R X
50 Guinan St.
Waltham, MA 02451
Ph. 781/891-3854 Fax 3857
http://www.metalwerx.com/
Jewelry/Metalarts School & Cooperative Studio
Mista A,
When a beginning student observes binding wrapped around a piece in
the pickle a # of factors come into play.
Was this student PRESENT in class and LISTENING when the the issue
was discussed. You can have bales of stainless, and if somebody goes
unconscious, and uses iron…Well U know the outcome.
In my teaching studio, all binding wire is removed after quenching
and before pickling. As for my own workshop space, of course that’s
another matter.
Hauoli makahiki hou.
Don,
Thank you for this great tip. What kind of Pickle can the hydrogen
peroxide be added to safely and can this be done with fresh pickle
instead of the pickle that turned green.
Happy 2006,
Greg DeMark
Website: http://www.demarkjewelry.com
Custom Jewelry - Handmade Jewelry - Antique Jewelry
the art center I teach at has a silver pickle pot and a copper pickle
pot. This was the set up when I started and I have kept it. I tell
the advanced students that this keeps the beginners in the same pot
until they move up to silver and have established the habit of not
putting steel into the pickle pot. I use only one pickle pot in my
own studio. As Karen says, students are hard on equipment and open
student monitors are not expected to be policeman. Accidents happen.
marilyn
Greg,
I use Sparex pickle 99% of the time. Have not tried this with
citric. I would normally use fresh pickle but sometimes when in a
hurry??? even used pickle will work.
Don’t use too much HP and don’t leave the piece in any longer than
necessary or it will turn a dull gray (possibly zinc plating if using
used pickle).
Happy 06 to you and all!
Cheers from Don at The Charles Belle Studio in SOFL where simple
elegance IS fine jewelry! @coralnut2
I am curious as to why so many people use binding wire? I would
guess that I run across a situation where it is useful or mandatory
in my personal work maybe 6 times a year… Even when I ran a trade
shop for 20 years, hardly anybody used the stuff. Still have that
very same original roll of wire to this day!
Could be because of all the jigs, fixtures, & clamps I’ve
accumulated or invented over the years? - but I don’t remember ever
resorting to binding unless there was NO easier way. There must be
thousands of simpler, faster ways to hold stuff in position.
I teach it, but I don’t advocate it using it any more often than
necessary…
D.
In my studio, I simply don't see any reason to pickle after every soldering....
There used to be a store in these parts operated by a fellow that
employed Vietnamese in the seventies. They would turn out phenomenal
chased and engraved dragons and Asian motifs that although hollow
were substantial in weight. No cast work, all hand made. I watched
one of the guys as he worked and noted that he didn’t pickle after
every solder. I have always suspected that the oxides that he produce
tended to help protect his work until it became too much.
Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Benchjeweler
Goldwerx
http://www.goldwerx.com