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Natural Gas or Propane?


#1

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan


#2

Hi everyone–

Just thought I’d play the devil here :slight_smile: Has anyone considered that
according to OSHA, bottled fuel gases and oxidizers must be separated
by 25 feet in permanent installations, even for storage with the caps
on.

That is why we use water torches here for gold and silver soldering.

Jim Simmons, Production Engineer
Medic Alert

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________Subject: Natural Gas or Propane?
Author: caffree@aztec.asu.edu (SUSAN B. CARD) at Internet
Date: 10/11/96 11:48

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than necessary to
do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits
also!

                   Richard Laspada 

I might add that a problem I have in my silver work with pitting in solder
seams comes from many soldering operations with hard solder. I think I’ll
go back to using hard and medium again being more careful not to get too
hot…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html

orchid@ganoksin.com


#3

Susan’s questions about natural gas/oxygen versus propane/oxygen:

I’ve tried both and can’t really tell the difference. Natural gas is
cheaper by volume, and more convenient, but when we had to choose for our
new studio a few years back, the costs of the natural gas installation
(steel pipes, shut-offs etc) were extremely high compared to propane
(tank outdoors, flexible copper pipe into the studio). That’s how we
decided.

Andrew

o
Goss Design Studio, jewellery and metal, http://www.makersgallery.com/
Makers Online, crafts catalogue, http://www.makersgallery.com/makers.html


#4

Jim Simmons wrote:

 Hi everyone--
 Just thought I'd play the devil here :)  Has anyone considered that
 according to OSHA, bottled fuel gases and oxidizers must be separated
 by 25 feet in permanent installations, even for storage with the caps
 on.
 That is why we use water torches here for gold and silver soldering.
 Jim Simmons, Production Engineer
 Medic Alert

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Natural Gas or Propane?
Author: caffree@aztec.asu.edu (SUSAN B. CARD) at Internet
Date: 10/11/96 11:48

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan

=

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than necessary to
do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits
also!

                   Richard Laspada

I might add that a problem I have in my silver work with pitting in solder
seams comes from many soldering operations with hard solder. I think I’ll
go back to using hard and medium again being more careful not to get too
hot…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html

orchid@ganoksin.com

orchid@ganoksin.com

orchid@ganoksin.com

that is why I remain happily self employed with no employees. this way
my life is my own business and not the governments and there oh so
bigggggg noses…


#5

SUSAN B. CARD wrote:

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan

I had mentioned that I installed my propane and oxygen cylinders in a
room seperate from my main bench and then piped the gas to the bench.I
put the cylinders in the room where I do casting and I did so for a
couple of reasons including safety and access when I change the
bottles…Gavin


#6

I Must Comment on OSHA!!

My dentist of 15 years decide to teach rather than put up with OSHA!..
Typical. . make a dentist rap equipment in poly when the AIDS virus is
large enough to fit through the microscopic holes!

General contracted my own home … If my painter decide to 'Drink the paint’
I would be liable for damage!!!

Who turned these nuts loose on the general public??

Not allowed to have a 'regular bottle(8 1/2 #s, I believe) of propane in a
small jewelers space… What’s this control the size of the explosion???

And it only gets worse depending on profession . . I guess we, the public,
are no longer responsible for our actions to any extent!!!

Kind of nice if I had the $$$ to hire a fleet of Lawyers!!

Jim

At 01:14 PM 10/11/96 -0700, you wrote:

Hi everyone--
Just thought I'd play the devil here :)  Has anyone considered that 
according to OSHA, bottled fuel gases and oxidizers must be separated 
by 25 feet in permanent installations, even for storage with the caps 
on.
That is why we use water torches here for gold and silver soldering.
Jim Simmons, Production Engineer
Medic Alert

______________________________ Reply Separator
Subject: Natural Gas or Propane?
Author: caffree@aztec.asu.edu (SUSAN B. CARD) at Internet
Date: 10/11/96 11:48

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan

=

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than necessary to
do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits
also!

                   Richard Laspada 

I might add that a problem I have in my silver work with pitting in solder
seams comes from many soldering operations with hard solder. I think I’ll
go back to using hard and medium again being more careful not to get too
hot…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures


#7

Why is it that I can hold the torch to a piece of solder for and etended
period of time( more than 5 seconds) and nothing happend… I mean, it seems
that a vapor barier forms like that which allows bugs to walk on water …
the solder never flows!!! Been told that the soldering process should take
only 2/3 seconds.??? Comments??

At 07:40 PM 10/11/96 -0500, you wrote:

Jim Simmons wrote:

 Hi everyone--
 Just thought I'd play the devil here :)  Has anyone considered that
 according to OSHA, bottled fuel gases and oxidizers must be separated
 by 25 feet in permanent installations, even for storage with the caps
 on.
 That is why we use water torches here for gold and silver soldering.
 Jim Simmons, Production Engineer
 Medic Alert

______________________________ Reply Separator
Subject: Natural Gas or Propane?
Author: caffree@aztec.asu.edu (SUSAN B. CARD) at Internet
Date: 10/11/96 11:48

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen? Also, someone mentioned they were working
in separate rooms, i.e., (I assumed) one for filing, another soldering.
Was that for safety reasons?

Susan

=

Another thing that should be mentioned if anyone new to goldsmithing is
following this thread is not to heat the solder any longer than
necessary to

do the job properly. Overheating the solder WILL burn it up, leaving pits
also!

                   Richard Laspada

I might add that a problem I have in my silver work with pitting in solder
seams comes from many soldering operations with hard solder. I think I’ll
go back to using hard and medium again being more careful not to get too
hot…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures

orchid@ganoksin.com

procedures


#8

Jim Chambers wrote:

Why is it that I can hold the torch to a piece of solder for and etended
period of time( more than 5 seconds) and nothing happend… I mean, it seems
that a vapor barier forms like that which allows bugs to walk on water …
the solder never flows!!! Been told that the soldering process should take
only 2/3 seconds.??? Comments??

The heat is being drawn into the item being soldered most likely. If the
piece is up to soldering temerature when you start to heat the solder,
it’ll flow right away. Try heating the piece with a fairly soft flame
from underneath until it heats up, then sharpen the flame and flow the
solder.

         Jeffrey Everett

Handmade 18K, 22K, and platinum gemstone fine jewelry.
Diamond setting, rubber/metal molds, casting, lapidary
Die and mold engraving, plastic patterns for casting.
Cad jewelry design, cad/cam milling scroll filigree…
P O Box 2057 Fairfield IA 52556 515-469-6250


#9

Jeffrey Everett wrote:

Jim Chambers wrote:

Why is it that I can hold the torch to a piece of solder for and etended
period of time( more than 5 seconds) and nothing happend… I mean, it seems
that a vapor barier forms like that which allows bugs to walk on water …
the solder never flows!!! Been told that the soldering process should take
only 2/3 seconds.??? Comments??

The heat is being drawn into the item being soldered most likely. If * ,
A few tips about soldering silver and gold items:

  1. don’t direct the torch flame at the solder itself rather heat
    the surrounding metal…
    2.instead of a standard soldering pick I use an ordinary pencil with
    the wood burned back an inch or so.
    3.it’s a good idea to purchase a commercial flux and I prefer the
    paste type to the thin liquids
  2. a couple of pairs of cross lock tweezers can be used one on each
    side of a ring shank to act as heat sinks and prevent discoloration or
    stone damage to a certain degree.I sometimes bury the entire top of the
    ring in a soft refractory fire brick and in conjunction with the cross
    lock tweezers have soldered rings with most all stones in them with no
    heat damage…Yes even opal…I would recommend that you practice on
    your own opal though)…Gavin

#10

Why is it that I can hold the torch to a piece of solder for and etended
period of time( more than 5 seconds) and nothing happend… I mean, it seems
that a vapor barier forms like that which allows bugs to walk on water …
the solder never flows!!! Been told that the soldering process should take
only 2/3 seconds.??? Comments??

Hey come on guys, EDIT THOSE REPLIES PLEASE! The torch shouldn’t be ON the
solder, you should be heating the metal around it. Usually you heat BEHIND
the joint so the joint gets hot then the solder will follow the heat into
the joint, comprende? If you heat directly on the solder the solder will
ball up and not flow then it changes and its melting point and you’re
screwed. Sometimes you have to heat from the front but start out heating up
the metal around it and when it all starts to reach temp then zero in on
the joint and that works. Maybe someone else can explain it better.
…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html


#11

Hi All: Since this message hasn’t gotten too long yet, I will tag onto
it. What advantage would there be to soldering with natural gas/oxygen
as opposed to propane/oxygen?

Hello Susan: I have heard that one of the possible disadvantages to
natural gas, ie. working off an existing residential line or even having
one installed, is that sometimes you cannot get sufficient gas pressure. I
know someone who had a city gas line installed in the back of a metals
gallery, paid for part of it, got the landlord to pay for part, wrot ethe
balance into the business, but could never use it because the pressure was
to low. (murphy again). With a propane tank and a regulator you won’t
have that problem, or the expense of setting up a line to a different part
of your site. You will have more flexibility on your siting and if you
want to move your studio you won’t leave your gas line behind. Which would
be painful if you paid to have it installed or relocated.

Sincerely, Eve Wallace
@eve_wallace


#12

Hello Susan: I have heard that one of the possible disadvantages to
natural gas, ie. working off an existing residential line or even having
one installed, is that sometimes you cannot get sufficient gas pressure.

I melted about a pound of silver in about 5 minutes, today. I use a Hoke
torch with city gas and oxygen. I use it regularly on platinum. There don’t
seem to be any problems.

http://www.knight-hub.com/manmtndense/bhh3.htm
e-mail: @Bruce_Holmgrain
snail mail: POB 7072, McLean, VA 22106-7972, U.S.A.


#13

Hi Eve: Thanks for the advice. You’re right about not wanting to leave
behind the piping…been there/done that (several times actually) ;/


#14

Hi Bruce: My experience with natural gas in the city is that it depends
upon your location there. Probably other geological, as well as geographical,
reasons contribute as well. My foundry was in St Paul MN, in the old historic
area called Lowertown (perhaps appropriately so named). Hardly had enough
pressure to run the furnace…of course that would be a great deal more
gas than we’re talking for soldering. Think I’ll go with propane because
it is cleaner than acetylene and bottled. Thanks for the advice.


#15

Ahhh didn’t you guys know their is a regulator that can step up the
pressure and it is near the meter.Really simple and all you have to do
is have a quick inspection of the lines and your gas company will turn
it up for you…
My advice is go for a small 5 or 8 gallon propane bottle and a medium
or large oxygen cylinder.One of the big oxygen bottles lasts a long time
and an 8 gallon propane bottle which is about $10 to fill here lasts
about the same as the largest (220 cu ft. I believe) oxygen.If sometime
I decide to take off in my vagabond way my torch and solder come with
me.Even casting (if you have a generator and small furnace is possible
on the road)…In other words with the propane you are portable…Gavin

SUSAN B. CARD wrote:


#16

Dave, wrote;

If you heat directly on the solder the solder will
ball up and not flow then it changes and its melting point

Didn’t know that this happened… True or a Typo???

Jim
At 08:44 PM 10/13/96 -0800, you wrote:


#17

Sad but true.

Silver is a great conductor of heat, when the torch is aimed equally at
the joint and the solder the joint conducts the heat away from itself.
The solder has only a small contact with the joint so the heat does not
leave the solder. The solder melts, then surface tension draws it into a
ball. While this happens, the heat hastens oxidation forming a thin
coating of oxide which can prevent flow when the joint reaches temperature for
soldering. When you heat the joint heat travels from the joint to
the solder. The solder melts at a lower temp than the joint. Since it is
contact with the joint, it flows at that point.

If that is not enough of a problem, it is possible that some solders have
an alloy which can be ‘boiled’ off by excessive heat changing its
properties including color and melting point.

MarlinOn Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jim Chambers wrote:

Dave, wrote;

If you heat directly on the solder the solder will
ball up and not flow then it changes and its melting point

Didn’t know that this happened… True or a Typo???

Jim
SNIP…


#18

Dave, wrote;

If you heat directly on the solder the solder will
ball up and not flow then it changes and its melting point

Didn’t know that this happened… True or a Typo???

No its not a typo. I’ve read this before from Peter Rowe in the newgroup.
If you’re heating the joint directly (putting the flame right ON the
solder) the solder will ball up first because its less massive and then
probably the zinc in it will vaporize and the metal in the solder changes
so much that its even less likely to flow heating it this way. I don’t know
if you know it or not (my knowledge is silver soldering only) but AFTER you
do a solder joint it takes 200 more degrees next time around to make that
solder in the joint flow again. This is why you can do a piece and use hard
solder only if you’re good because the new solder will flow before the
already soldered joints. I would think it’d be the same for gold soldering
but don’t know jack about gold yet…Dave

Art Jewelry for Conscious People
http://www.opendoor.com/stephensdesign/crystalguy.html


#19

Great explanation Marlin, you might have added that the solder clipping
could be pinched inside the joint when possible thus eliminatind some of
the problem.

Marlin Cohrs wrote:

Sad but true.

Silver is a great conductor of heat, when the torch is aimed equally at
the joint and the solder the joint conducts the heat away from itself.
The solder has only a small contact with the joint so the heat does not
leave the solder. The solder melts, then surface tension draws it into a
ball. While this happens, the heat hastens oxidation forming a thin
coating of oxide which can prevent flow when the joint reaches temperature for
soldering. When you heat the joint heat travels from the joint to
the solder. The solder melts at a lower temp than the joint. Since it is
contact with the joint, it flows at that point.

If that is not enough of a problem, it is possible that some solders have
an alloy which can be ‘boiled’ off by excessive heat changing its
properties including color and melting point.

Marlin

         Jeffrey Everett

Handmade 18K, 22K, and platinum gemstone fine jewelry.
Diamond setting, rubber/metal molds, casting, lapidary
Die and mold engraving, plastic patterns for casting.
Cad jewelry design, cad/cam milling scroll filigree…
P O Box 2057 Fairfield IA 52556 515-469-6250